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  1. #1001
    Deleted
    I got 1600 spirit, have only t11 2 set bonus and ive healed through shannox, beth, ryolith, majordomo heroic + all normal with no mana problems what so ever. I think i would've managed baleroc and alysrazor too, but we went with other healers on those.

    Would trade half my mana for bigger heals though

  2. #1002
    Deleted
    Spirit also needs to be put into context: content raided, plus raid makeup, spec, trinkets equipped, set bonuses and possibly raid size to some extent are all influencing factors. Just saying I have xxxx spirit doesn't really give the full picture imo.

    Fwiw, I'm on ~2500 Spirit, 6/7 HM 25's, using a SoW and the Alys one *until the Jaws drop*, regarding raid makeup we get a resto shammy about 50% of the time for MTT.

    I would like to cut it down some, and I am via reforging, but everything seems to have boat loads of spirit on it atm, most fights are a joke for mana but Beth can still drain the mana right out of me. I'd almost like 1 spec/gear for beth, and another for the rest but I'm too lazy to sort this out .

  3. #1003
    I'm sitting at 2700 spirit, +400 from DMC + jaws. Might seem like overkill, and it is for every fight before rag. But we are working heroic rag right now, and we have to use the kill seeds individually strat so its a lot harder for healing, and I really have no idea what kind of mana I need to have to last in p4, so I am just playing it safe.

    I basically need it because there's a lot of oh shit regrowth moments.

  4. #1004
    You're right about the context - we're currently 4/7 down on heroic without mana problems - running with a resto shaman and holy paladin (though many fights are two healed). And I run 10 man content.
    Last edited by Themessiah; 2011-08-24 at 11:23 PM.

  5. #1005
    Quote Originally Posted by ajub View Post
    Balance gloves > Offset gloves

    They have same stats but balance set gives you 40 haste rating more and 40 spirit less.
    While I agree with this, in the given context of needing haste, my current spirit hating self believes that the tier gloves are better than both in the long run, just because it is a red socket bonus with +10 int. Then the beth helm has more haste than both gloves, however depending on how you reforge, you can come out with up to 13 more haste with the boomkin gloves and tier helm. Also, if you are pushing towards heroic rag, you can potentially go in with two 291 pieces vs. a 291 and a 278 (tier helm).

    Plus, I have plenty of haste right now so the 13 haste difference (or whatever it is with the heroic versions) doesn't bother me as much, but the two throughput stats are really nice.

    After making the "reforge away as much spirit as I can" leap, I am currently running with 1406 spirit, t12 2pc, jaws, and 1pt in furor. I use rune of zeth instead of dmc and also switched out my ember meta for the revitalizing one. I have healed heroic (25man) Ryolith fine. My guild is currently working on heroic beth, and while we haven't killed her yet, my mana has been okay on attempts (though I might grab that 2nd point in furor if I need it for the end of the last phase). Shannox and Alys on heroic have been fine too, but those are not as mana intensive as the other two fights.
    Last edited by Lynlyn; 2011-08-24 at 11:04 PM.

  6. #1006
    Quote Originally Posted by Mokka View Post
    Think of spirit as hit. now suppose that int increases the hit you gain from hit rating aswell. with this in mind, hit rating would be more valuable the more int you get. you would get more hit from the same hit rating. this would make hit rating more valuable, each point of hit rating would mean more DPS.

    But, when you reach the hit cap, there is no point in stacking more hit rating. the same goes with spirit, just because it gets more powerful, doesn't mean you need to stack it as much as you can. You only need enough to last the whole fight.

    That's why you don't look at spirit's stat "weight" as you do to mastery or crit. You need to reach a cap, and that's it.

    TLDR: Int increases the amount of regen you get from spirit, but you need only enough regen to make your mana last the whole fight. More then that is a waste.
    The same argument applies to stats that only increase Heal per Cast. Your HPS is also capped by the amount of damage the raid takes, so if mana regen doesn't matter, then having more HPC also doesn't matter, because neither of them can increase your HPS behind the raid DTPS cap.

    Now, if your raid starts taking more damage than you can heal, then both spirit and mastery/crit will increase your capability of dealing with the incoming damage. Spirit allows you to cast more heals before you run out of mana, whereas mastery/crit allows you to get more healing per cast.

  7. #1007
    Now, if your raid starts taking more damage than you can heal, then both spirit and mastery/crit will increase your capability of dealing with the incoming damage. Spirit allows you to cast more heals before you run out of mana, whereas mastery/crit allows you to get more healing per cast.
    Ultimately, having *just* enough spirit usually isn't the best, ending at exactly 0%. One should have enough to create a buffer for peoples' or your mistakes either in the form of split attention or inefficient heals. That buffer can take the form of both throughput and regen stats. The reason to go with throughput over regen in general however is the fact that throughput stats *generally* provide more because spirit regen has a very flat effect. In the case of unexpected extra damage, spirit can have 0 effect, as you need to keep people alive before the spirit can have an effect. On the other hand, Mastery/Crit allow for *potentially* more efficient healing overall for the entire raid.

    Majordomo is an excellent example.
    Last edited by Lyren; 2011-08-25 at 11:04 AM.

  8. #1008
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyren View Post
    Ultimately, having *just* enough spirit usually isn't the best, ending at exactly 0%. One should have enough to create a buffer for peoples' or your mistakes either in the form of split attention or inefficient heals. That buffer can take the form of both throughput and regen stats. The reason to go with throughput over regen in general however is the fact that throughput stats *generally* provide more because spirit regen has a very flat effect. In the case of unexpected extra damage, spirit can have 0 effect, as you need to keep people alive before the spirit can have an effect. On the other hand, Mastery/Crit allow for *potentially* more efficient healing overall for the entire raid.

    Majordomo is an excellent example.
    By using the words "*generally* provide more" and "*potentially* more efficient", you are throwing in subjectivity without anything to back up your assertions. The good news is the objective measurements have already been done, taking into account the "efficient healing" and all the stuff you mentioned. You can check it out in my spreadsheet.

    Generally, at least for my gear level, I would say that Mastery seems to be better than Spirit in all cases. Spirit vs Critical depends more on the duration of the fight, Spirit is at least on par with Critical at 6 mins and better when longer. Of course, when you need burst DPS, Spirit would become useless. So I would say Mastery > Spirit = Crit. YMMV depending on your gear of course. In any case, I don't think Spirit is as useless as what many people here imagine, even when you are at the stage where you think that you have enough spirit.

  9. #1009
    Deleted
    Hey someone outthere using Fiery Quintessence? I have access to it but not sure to take it to be honest =)

  10. #1010
    Over 9000! Myrrar's Avatar
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    I've been using all the trinks on and off. Quint is really good if you need haste and have mana problems over a trink with mastery or crit + an int proc. All of them you can use the int proc with PT and innervate, just depends on if the spi is better for you than crit or other stats on another trinket.

  11. #1011
    Deleted
    Thank you, I ll give it try then =) but usually I dont run out of mana

  12. #1012
    Deleted
    nice guide

  13. #1013
    Deleted
    Hey.
    First, thanks for the really nice guide.

    I have another trinket question.
    Currently I have DMC:T and the Vibrant Alchemist Stone.

    Since yesterday I can get Fiery Quintessence.
    Now I'm thinking to replace the alchemist stone with the Fiery Quintessence, but I'm not sure about it.

    If I take the alchemist stone out, I will lose 341 Int, the bonus for mana/concentration pot and a slight loss in mana reg from revitalize and replenishment.
    The Quintessence I would time with Innervate (and the Synapse springs) to get more mana reg from Innervate.

    My problem is, will the better mana reg from Innervate compensate the loss of mana reg from the loss of int and "normal" pot values.
    And how about the loss in throughput which comes along with the Int loss?

    Greetings
    Gizmo

    P.S. Sorry for any mistakes in my English, it's not my native language.

  14. #1014
    Deleted
    Hi DatGizmo

    You haven't mentioned the lost haste from the Alchemist Stone? I know you can reforge some of the Spirit on the Fiery trinket but I think there is still ~40 haste lost aswell.

    For me personally I'd stick with the 2 you have now, I dislike +use trinkets and my opinion is that both the current trinkets offer more than the FQ does.

    However I am willing to be wrong on this one, there is a thread about the FQ trinket atm, seems opinion on this is divided (even if the maths may not be) . http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...as-Resto...bad

  15. #1015
    Deleted
    You're right Gertrud, I didn't mention the loss of hast, because I already played with the stats in wowreforge.com and had no problems getting back to the 2005 hast cap (with a slight loss of crit ~50 points)

    I always have all my spells macroed, so every time a trinket is ready it will be used. Might not be perfect, specially because it will activate the trinkets on pull, but I prefer having them up every time, then keep them until I "need" them. (Because I would forget them mostly).

    My main problem is "math" based. I would like to know which one gives more overall mana reg and if I use FQ how big is the loss in throughput due to the loss of Int/Spell power. I would like to do this my self, but I not sure where to start to do the calc right -_-.

    Edit: And I will have a look at the thread you linked, perhaps I will get some information from there.

  16. #1016
    Over 9000! Myrrar's Avatar
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    If you can get back to 2005 haste without it I'd switch. 1st off, a lot of fights you may have a hard time fitting a conc pot in which if that's the case, drops the value of the alch trinket a ton. The on use really isn't bad. Either use it 1st as just a healing buff, and use it second with PT and innervate, or use it 1st with innervate, 2nd as a CD, and switch back and forth. All depends on what bos you do.(like rag, I use it with innervate 1st, as a int cd second). Jaws and Woe are better, but as far as other theorycrafters have said, this trinket really isn't bad at all and probably out values t11 trinks.

    EJ values Rune and Quint over all T11 trinks and Eye. When timing Quint with innervate and PT, and using it on CD between, besides reforging it to whatever you need and the spi you have on it, it will probably lead to a pretty significant amount more regen even if you use a conc pot.

    I haven't found anyone who has taken the time to do solid numbers on all the trinkets sadly =/

  17. #1017
    Greetings everyone, I have a question regarding haste cap, with my current gear I can reach 2005 haste breakpoint by losing 180 intellect, 107 crit, 91 mastery and 303 spirit. Should I reforge/change gems to hast or it is better to stay with 917 haste rating?
    My profile on armory:
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...D0%B0/advanced
    This is my first post, so I can't post clickable link, sorry for inconvenience.
    Last edited by Myrrar; 2011-08-31 at 08:30 AM.

  18. #1018
    Deleted
    Thanks Myrrar, I will give the FQ a try .

    Quote Originally Posted by Ewert
    Greetings everyone, I have a question regarding haste cap, with my current gear I can reach 2005 haste breakpoint by losing 180 intellect, 107 crit, 91 mastery and 303 spirit. Should I reforge/change gems to hast or it is better to stay with 917 haste rating?
    My profile on armory:
    eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...D0%B0/advanced
    This is my first post, so I can't post clickable link, sorry for inconvenience.
    In the first post is said

    Spreadsheets also have shown to get the WG haste cap you can lose up to 370int and still see an overall throughput increase in 4.1. I have no idea what it is for 4.2, but still, you can drop a lot of stats and still see a throughput increase from haste cap.
    So you'er the int loss will be ok, and the loss in spirit, crit and mastery are totally worth to get to the hast cap.
    In my personal opinion, you have currently to much spirit, but as someone else said, "use as much spirit as you need".


    So go for the hast cap

  19. #1019
    Quote Originally Posted by Ewert View Post
    Greetings everyone, I have a question regarding haste cap, with my current gear I can reach 2005 haste breakpoint by losing 180 intellect, 107 crit, 91 mastery and 303 spirit. Should I reforge/change gems to hast or it is better to stay with 917 haste rating?
    My profile on armory:
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...D0%B0/advanced
    This is my first post, so I can't post clickable link, sorry for inconvenience.
    Do note that you'd gain more from switching your 65 mastery on hands / 35 mastery + speed on feet into 100 haste, and exchanging 3x pure haste gems with 2x pure int and 1 reckless. Its essentially trading 100 mastery for 100 int, if you are good enough to not need the run speed.

  20. #1020
    Here's a quick rule of thumb that is fairly accurate. The breakeven point for 2005 haste is about 370 intellect (I believe that's the number Myrrar came up with using my spreadsheet with her gear) it varies depending on many different factors). Each point in Crit Rating, Mastery Rating or Spirit is worth about 1/3 Intellect.

    So in your case you lose about 180 + (107 + 91 + 303) / 3 = 347 IEP (intellect equivalence points), so you are likely to see equal or better results reforging for the haste breakpoint.

    To get results tailored for your gear, you might want to check out my spreadsheet

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