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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by haxartus View Post
    ARM is still too slow for a regular OS with heavy multitasking and virtualization.
    Its certainly too slow for performance-based workloads - but for simpler matters such as working with documents, web browsing, watching movies, music, socializing, voice software, syncing with devices, reading documentation and manuals, etc - its sufficient. And really, thats what most computer users do.

    Multi tasking in these types of software is about RAM - not processing power. When not actively in use, all of the above software uses pretty much 0% CPU even when visible.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Aphorism View Post
    Because you don't need to synchronize files with a file server computer or Dropbox if you just use one device for everything? Because you don't even really need to own the other device if your mobile is good enough for your usage?
    If your mobile is good enough for usage. It's not.

    Or rather, it may be for you. But for the absolute majority of users this will not be enough.
    Last edited by Drunkenvalley; 2011-09-18 at 10:30 PM.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Drunkenvalley View Post
    If your mobile is good enough for usage. It's not.
    But it almost certainly will be, and in some cases already is (as long as your needs don't involve CPU/GPU-heavy applications). You're missing the point of the argument here. What exactly is the "absolute majority of users" trying to do? I can guarantee you that they aren't trying to run Arch Linux in a VM.

  4. #204
    Most mobile devices (though this may change) feature extremely poor interaction devices or monitors.

    Touchscreens are cute, but require an extremely long training period to be able to use it naturally without frequent typos or mistakes happening. Keyboards that size are extremely awkward to use and use half-assed solutions.

    You've also left out an extremely massive demographic using such devices: Workers. For a substantial amount of time now, tertiary workplaces (services, such as offices, techsupport, etc) have been a pretty damn big bulk of the workforce.

    They cannot work on mobile device without someone getting lynched a week later.

  5. #205
    What a truly horrible mish-mash of a UI. Which ever bright spark (and I use that term sarcastically) thought that trying to create a single UI for multiple devices that use totally different types of user input should be shot. Using the tile system is pointless at best, and means it takes longer to find what I'm looking for in the worst case. Coupled with the fact that none of these "apps" (why in Gods name they have to become hipster and stop calling them applications I don't know) seem to have any kind of close button and have to be killed off manually in the task manager, along with the fact that you can't even customise half the things on your PC unless you have access to the internet to log into Windows Live, I'm left thinking........... WTF.

    On the plus side, I like the new Task Manager. And that's about it.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Drunkenvalley View Post
    Most mobile devices (though this may change) feature extremely poor interaction devices or monitors.
    This isn't a technical limitation.

    Touchscreens are cute, but require an extremely long training period to be able to use it naturally without frequent typos or mistakes happening. Keyboards that size are extremely awkward to use and use half-assed solutions.
    For serious data input, peripherals such as external keyboards are available and improving quite rapidly as the market catches on. The nice thing is, you don't need to use the keyboard when it's not useful, unlike a traditional desktop or laptop.

    You've also left out an extremely massive demographic using such devices: Workers. For a substantial amount of time now, tertiary workplaces (services, such as offices, techsupport, etc) have been a pretty damn big bulk of the workforce.
    Some jobs have legitimate uses for tablets already. Airlines have started handing them out to pilots, sports teams use them as playbooks, and iPads are practically ubiquitous amongst lawyers and corporate executives. They don't really replace a PC at this point, I'll agree, (although some guy who invented the PC dissents) but it's not too hard to imagine tablet docking stations that provide most of the functionality you're missing. And, of course, there's always just using a laptop for professional use and a tablet for personal use.

  7. #207
    You know, it just kinda hit me that we're honestly arguing over nothing.

    I mean, even if mobile devices became "the one and only" where applicable, that still leaves a very massive demographic that simply and outright requires stationary machines or servers.

    And in the first place, the market is genuinely catering to gamers on many levels, so the idea of "us" being "unimportant" is a silly prospect in the first place.
    Last edited by Drunkenvalley; 2011-09-19 at 12:46 AM.

  8. #208
    I am Murloc! Cyanotical's Avatar
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    as someone who has a tablet, i don't think they are ever going to replace a desktop, at least not for a very long time (decades), they make great replacements for books, manuals, etc and you can get away with only using a tablet if all you do is browse the web and get email, but they have serious limitations, VM hosting is a good example of what you cant do on a tablet, however, they do make fairly good VDI recievers

    personally i use my ipad to supliment my desktop when im away from it, it's much better then my laptop at being portable and granting easy access to the web or whatever else i have on it, but there is a reason i still have a laptop, because for all the cool things that a tablet can do, they cant do any of the cool things a laptop or computer can do

    however, what really pisses me off about my ipad is that its made by apple, while the ipad is the best tablet out there, it's held back by the crap coding of it's OS and the fact that apple keeps a tight leash on what you can and cant do with it, and of the 14 computers in my home network, my ipad is the only one that doesn't interface with the others, even my android tablet can at least see my NAS and Printer

    this is why im looking forward to W8, if i can run everything with it, then i can have full compatibility among my devices and not have to worry about whether something is stuck on my ipad or my computer and how to transfer between without using itunes

  9. #209
    Scarab Lord Wries's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drunkenvalley View Post
    You know, it just kinda hit me that we're honestly arguing over nothing.

    I mean, even if mobile devices became "the one and only" where applicable, that still leaves a very massive demographic that simply and outright requires stationary machines or servers.

    And in the first place, the market is genuinely catering to gamers on many levels, so the idea of "us" being "unimportant" is a silly prospect in the first place.
    My thoughts as well. The shit we've bought really is catered towards gamers. Asus ROG, SLI/crossfire, overclocking features everywhere, the damn fugly "cool" looking cases you wouldn't see at work. EA despite being filled with hate still releasing games for windows. There's a market here but I can't speak for whether or not it's going very well. They seem to always be releasing new hardware for us, though.

    Though your Spinpoint F3 in sig, with the capacity of 1GB, is catered towards gamers in 1992 I guess

  10. #210
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    People shouldn't be mad about Metro for Windows 8.

    They should be mad about the future - they said at BUILD that they're looking to have Metro fully replace the default UI in future Windows (so like Windows 9 or 10). This is a test run. Give them feedback and tell them how much you want the Desktop UI to stay for Windows 9.

    Don't shit on Windows 8.
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  11. #211
    "The latest version of Windows 7 was demonstrated running with about 404 MB of RAM used for 32 processes. Windows 8 in its current, unfinished state is doing the same with about 281 MB and 29 processes."
    - Windows 8 Even More Resource Efficient Than Windows 7

    - Windows 8 Has a Slightly Friendlier Blue Screen of Death

  12. #212
    I think Windows 8 is a little early... Windows 7 is a great OS and works perfectly fine, why do we need another OS? I know they want money but windows 7 works great, What defining features does Windows 8 offer? Although I do like the Xbox 360 integration for PC users, allowing PC to play on Xbox live, especially if they allow keyboard and mouse usage.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Aphorism View Post
    Processor speed will never increase. Ever. That would be ludicrous. ARM may see its market share decline, too; Intel has announced that it's merging its Atom and Core teams under a single design infrastructure. This isn't because they think their mobile processors are less important now. I'm looking forward to getting my hands on a Haswell tablet.
    The desktops will always be much faster. You need power efficiency for a tablet. If a Haswell tablet is powerful and efficient, the desktop Haswells will be x5 times faster.
    Last edited by haxartus; 2011-09-19 at 09:20 AM.

  14. #214
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by haxartus View Post
    The desktops will always be much faster. You need power efficiency for a tablet. If a Haswell tablet is powerful and efficient, the desktop Haswells will be x5 times faster.
    The point really is that they're trying to do both. Previously Atoms were power efficient, but had terrible performance no matter how you sliced it. Other chips were strong, but not power efficient. With both on a single team, the idea is to research 'strict power efficiency' on the more basic level - for the essentials, with the more power demanding components effectively being 'on a toggle'.

    I briefly read something about the upcoming processors basically being 'adaptable'. The same processor would be capable of serving in a netbook/tablet and laptop. In the netbook, it operates on the stricter power configurations it requires. In the laptop - it clocks up, draining more power but in turn putting out far more power. This idea itself isn't new, the scaling just isn't there.

    That idea can also translate into potential docking solutions. Imagine a Netbook or Tablet processor, when connected to a dock - clocking that 17W threshold to 65W - the same as a current Desktop dual-core processor. And all that changed was that the netbook got access to a more robust power supply... and maybe a little extra cooling as well.
    Last edited by mmoca371db5304; 2011-09-19 at 09:38 AM.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Mantús View Post
    "The latest version of Windows 7 was demonstrated running with about 404 MB of RAM used for 32 processes. Windows 8 in its current, unfinished state is doing the same with about 281 MB and 29 processes."
    - Windows 8 Even More Resource Efficient Than Windows 7

    - Windows 8 Has a Slightly Friendlier Blue Screen of Death
    I don't really get why people really care about that... Modern computers have 4+ gigs of RAM. I want that memory to be used optimally and to full extent, that is the reason I bought it in the first place! For example, it is common for Unix (e.g. OS X) to preallocate RAM for future tasks, so that programs can be launched very fast. I have almost no free RAM on my Mac, but I have 15+ applications open at all times, with 30+ Chrome browser tabs and I can switches between the different programs almost instantly. If windows 8 can perform on a similar level, people should be happy about it, no matter how much RAM is reported as being taken by the system.

    So far, the preview of the Windows 8 has horrible usability for desktops and is an UI mess. If MS will force this form of UI onto desktop users, I predict significant increase of Mac and Linux users who would want a "real" desktop OS.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by mafao View Post
    So far, the preview of the Windows 8 has horrible usability for desktops and is an UI mess. If MS will force this form of UI onto desktop users, I predict significant increase of Mac and Linux users who would want a "real" desktop OS.
    Or they will just stick to Windows 7.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by mafao View Post
    I don't really get why people really care about that... Modern computers have 4+ gigs of RAM. I want that memory to be used optimally and to full extent, that is the reason I bought it in the first place! For example, it is common for Unix (e.g. OS X) to preallocate RAM for future tasks, so that programs can be launched very fast. I have almost no free RAM on my Mac, but I have 15+ applications open at all times, with 30+ Chrome browser tabs and I can switches between the different programs almost instantly. If windows 8 can perform on a similar level, people should be happy about it, no matter how much RAM is reported as being taken by the system.

    So far, the preview of the Windows 8 has horrible usability for desktops and is an UI mess. If MS will force this form of UI onto desktop users, I predict significant increase of Mac and Linux users who would want a "real" desktop OS.
    Indexing. The more RAM you have, the more that can be allocated by Windows for exactly what you are saying.

    Also, you do know Windows 7 will still exist right? Microsoft doesn't practice ritualistic mass operating system genocide with each new OS - not right away anyway.

    Plus, Linux has been gaining ground for years. The improved X Windows and subsequently, the usability has made Linux more friendly than ever before.

  18. #218
    Personally I think it looks great.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Aphorism View Post
    I'm going to put this bluntly: gamers aren't important. It's even more of a niche than tablets are (see tablets' adoption amongst everything from airlines to boardroom executives). Mobile computing is obviously the way of the future, regardless of whether or not the particular form factor is going to a laptop, smartphone, tablet, or something else. Both Windows and Apple, with Win8 and Lion respectively, have made a large bet on the future of mobile computing by implementing smartphone and tablet-inspired UI elements into their operating system. You may not like the way computing is going, but complaining about its efficiency and calling it a niche market (when you're a gamer... really?) is just wasted breath.
    I'm not a gamer, neither am I advocating gaming. Tablets are a niché market, regardless of the size of that market. Gaming is also a niché market. Please understand the meaning of the word - perhaps a dictionary will help you there. Niché does not mean "small".

    I was responding to tablets being used for gaming.

    I was also making certain people were aware of the speed and efficiency of a keyboard and mouse vs a tablet.

    I would love to see how fast you could word process with a tablet vs me at 160wpm+ on a keyboard. I would love to see how fast you could provide a complicated spreadsheet solution using a tablet vs a keyboard and mouse.

    Tablet is a gimmick, because it is not a tactile peripheral. It is great for generating media, for viewing media, for phones, for document reading, for browsing... but to suggest that it has more productivity than a keyboard and mouse? That it will eventually surpass them? That is asinine.

    If you want to know why I call it a gimmick, get the dictionary again. It is a gimmick because it doesn't do anything a keyboard and mouse cannot, and it doesn't do it faster. Aside from built in accelerometers it's selling point is the fun and "coolness" or "hipness" of being able to touch a screen.

    If you are disputing what I have said, you are welcome to do so by yourself.


    (p.s. I like tablets, and I like the operating system, and I like being hip. But If I have work to do, it's a keyboard and a mouse - and considering my job is 45+ hours a week of typing and reporting, that my previous job involved network practitioning and IT consultancy in an upcoming business where adoption of a computer based infrastructure was paramount to their growth, and that previously I studied general IT that included IT in the workplace and Systems Analysis and Design, I like to consider myself experienced enough to use myself as a source in discussions around peripheral use, peripheral and device market niché and the comparitive efficiency of peripherals and devices.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lugo Moll View Post
    Consider this philosophical question: If Blizz fails, but noone is there to see it. Will there still be QQ?

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Aphorism View Post
    Grats, cherry picking computing tasks that are irrelevant to 95% of consumers. If you want to run a virtual machine, yeah, you should probably stick with a desktop for now. If you're like every other consumer, though, you're much more interested in running Quickbooks, Excel, Word, or an IDE than you are in running a virtual machine.

    P.S. There are smartphones - smartphone, not tablet - with 1GB RAM. It's not so far off.



    Again, I don't think games are important (if that's what you're referring to). People who play Crysis are not representative of typical consumers.
    Reading through lots more of your responses and I shouldn't really have responded, you're either trolling or far too inexperienced to coherently grasp the computing market.

    Not that your being inexperienced is bad nor am I trying to be insulting, but you should probably read up some more and go to workplaces and go to peoples homes and see what people use.

    Tablets are great, no doubt about it. But I think you seem to have dropped into a marketing trap whereby you think they will soon make the world turn.

    You are partly right by saying smartphones will be very important - partly right because they already are - but there is not much growth available there. Not saying that the market is entirely satured or stagnating, but it's incredibly presumptuous to consider any other market penetration from these devices. Soon they will act as credit cards, perhaps even ID cards, which will make them grow... slightly, but they already own casual gaming, phone/diary/calculator, portable media players - and social cameras, they will keep improving at those, but there are not many other markets they can get hold of and certainly not many markets with the size or influence of the aforementioned.

    ---------- Post added 2011-09-19 at 04:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyanotical View Post
    as someone who has a tablet, i don't think they are ever going to replace a desktop, at least not for a very long time (decades), they make great replacements for books, manuals, etc and you can get away with only using a tablet if all you do is browse the web and get email, but they have serious limitations, VM hosting is a good example of what you cant do on a tablet, however, they do make fairly good VDI recievers

    personally i use my ipad to supliment my desktop when im away from it, it's much better then my laptop at being portable and granting easy access to the web or whatever else i have on it, but there is a reason i still have a laptop, because for all the cool things that a tablet can do, they cant do any of the cool things a laptop or computer can do

    however, what really pisses me off about my ipad is that its made by apple, while the ipad is the best tablet out there, it's held back by the crap coding of it's OS and the fact that apple keeps a tight leash on what you can and cant do with it, and of the 14 computers in my home network, my ipad is the only one that doesn't interface with the others, even my android tablet can at least see my NAS and Printer

    this is why im looking forward to W8, if i can run everything with it, then i can have full compatibility among my devices and not have to worry about whether something is stuck on my ipad or my computer and how to transfer between without using itunes
    And this is the niche (or rather, USP) of windows 8 as I described earlier - Windows again heading for market domination by allowing all of everyones devices to synchronize and communicate. Windows 8 will be the platform people want to use, because they will be able to communicate their laptops, desktops, windows (and probably android) phones, tablets across networks and the internet and feel very much at home on all of them.

    And it will be interesting to see Apple's response to it. As I completely empathise with your frustration and I don't even have an iPad, I can already imagine the annoyance of its inability to communicate with your other devices - or your need to buy apple based peripherals instead of peripherals that can be used on almost every other machine and device out there.

    ---------- Post added 2011-09-19 at 04:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mafao View Post
    I don't really get why people really care about that... Modern computers have 4+ gigs of RAM. I want that memory to be used optimally and to full extent, that is the reason I bought it in the first place! For example, it is common for Unix (e.g. OS X) to preallocate RAM for future tasks, so that programs can be launched very fast. I have almost no free RAM on my Mac, but I have 15+ applications open at all times, with 30+ Chrome browser tabs and I can switches between the different programs almost instantly. If windows 8 can perform on a similar level, people should be happy about it, no matter how much RAM is reported as being taken by the system.

    So far, the preview of the Windows 8 has horrible usability for desktops and is an UI mess. If MS will force this form of UI onto desktop users, I predict significant increase of Mac and Linux users who would want a "real" desktop OS.
    Because - 404MB of 4GB is 10%, and 281MB is 7% of your total RAM (obvious approx'es). Because Windows 8 is not just a desktop operating system. Consider having the same OS on a tablet with 1GB or less RAM. Imagine a tablet with 1GB of RAM, this is an extra 124MB of RAM it is able to utilise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lugo Moll View Post
    Consider this philosophical question: If Blizz fails, but noone is there to see it. Will there still be QQ?

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