1. #8501
    Quote Originally Posted by Barrowmore View Post
    Zerging is not an issue in GW2. The bosses and events adjust themselves depending on the # of players there, e.g. a boss is suddenly faced with 30 additional players so it's given additional HP, damage, and an AoE skill to kill them with.
    Zerging is always an issue for open world content where anyone can participate, Devs tend to build encounters based on a minimum player standard, ie a player will have at least x amount of gear, skill, experience. But when you have a lot of players many of those players have more than the required minimum and so it becomes a zerg. This is why instancing works so well, you can limit the number of participants and you can create tiers of content and keep increasing the minimum requirements for each successive tier to keep it challenging and not a zerg.

    Don't get me wrong I want GW2 to be awesome, I've browsed through a lot of this thread and the official site and watched a ton of videos this last few weeks, I really like the look of the world, the skill system, even the outdoor stuff.

    But I remain unconvinced about the endgame, and so I will play devils advocate until someone convinces me that what Arenanet are doing will work.

    ---------- Post added 2011-09-20 at 12:47 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonKing View Post
    What do you constantly do at max level that is so time consuming, the only thing I can think of is gear grinding and doing raids
    In WoW I raided, and every once in a while I would get the urge to PvP. But that only provided a limited amount of entertainment after TBC, raids were made far more accessible (easier) and so took less time. I also despise the new normal/hardmode system, since I view it as the same content twice. This to me was the reason I quit WoW, I spent far too much time sat about waiting for raids, and of late there has been precious little raid content.

    It's also the reason I currently play RIFT. There have been 23 raid bosses added in the last six months, there are lot's of open world invasions and raids, exploration is meaningful via collectable artifacts, achievements and rare spawns, there is real world PvP (and lots of it), and shortly we will have alternate advancement and 1-2man content. The content is varied and thick and fast, it's WoW on amphetamines.

    I think part of my problem is that I am more a hardcore gamer, I game for the challenge, to be competitive. MMO developers have realised that the vast majority of MMO gamers are no longer the geeky dedicated few but the casual everyday guys, and are catering to them. You just have to look at the number of new dungeons this expansion compared to any other in WoW and the nerfs to older raid tiers to see that.

    And yes, I am a geek

  2. #8502
    If they do have enough high level events, I can easily see those become a "replacement" for the traditional mmo raid, but more interesting becuz they have a way higher random factor in them (as in abilities he will use etc depend on nr of players and stuff).

    But I do guess the "high-end-game" will be more oriented towards competitive pvp and their ranks and ladders and etc.

    still I think someone here posted sometimes ago gw1 pvp ranks and even pve ranks, that listed ppl that got certain achievements and stuff done from what I remember (never played gw1)

    Honestly I cant wait for something fresh... Im tired of grinding raids, gear, TIME for wow... everytime I log on wow I find myself standing around orgrimar alt tabbed on this forums for example... I mean... the game is so boring that I spend more time alt tabbed then I do actually playing the game sometimes...
    Waiting for SWTOR (Star wars: the old republic)

    www.swtor.com

    or... GW2... undecided

  3. #8503
    Quote Originally Posted by Mothhive View Post
    There's no reason 5 man instances can't provide just as much challenge and story as a raid. The only reason they don't in other games is because that's just how they are designed.

    MMOs like WoW have you quest to max level, do 5 man instances till you gear up, then completely ignore them for the grind that is Raiding, then get the same story every week in one raid instance until the next tier is released which eventually trivialises the rest of the content. Do you really think that Guild Wars 2 giving you the option to do whatever you want and always have it be challenging is a worse system and that it can't provide as much story just because you don't need to organise 10/25 people to see it?

    The vast majority of WoW players don't even raid though. Wasn't it something like 15% that Raid, and that's including people who only PUG now and then. The rest of the playerbase just quest a little when they can, maybe do a bit of PvP or instances, roll new characters, etc (y'know, fun stuff), all of which GW2 caters to much more than previous MMOs that rely on raids and the dangling carrot of epic loot.
    I know it may sound odd but I enjoy wiping. Bosses are mental puzzles, you figure out how best to beat them, how to minimise your incoming damage and maximise your outgoing damage. Wiping just means that the puzzle was even more challenging than you originally thought and will give an even greater sense of accomplishment once you beat the encounter.

    If a five man dungeon could do that, it would be great, although I would find that less satisfying. In a raid you have 25 people and their abilities to use as tools to solve the puzzle, in a dungeon there are just five. It's like going from a 25 piece puzzle to a 5 piece puzzle, in a sense.

    You say that GW2 will give me the option to do what I want and it will be challenging, I say that without instancing that will likely not happen. For there to be a real challenge you need to instance the event, limit the number of participants and those participants need to be people that you chose to go in with because you can count on them. If it's just a massive zerg, well, let me repeat what I just posted:

    Zerging is always an issue for open world content where anyone can participate, Devs tend to build encounters based on a minimum player standard, ie a player will have at least x amount of gear, skill, experience. But when you have a lot of players many of those players have more than the required minimum and so it becomes a zerg. This is why instancing works so well, you can limit the number of participants and you can create tiers of content and keep increasing the minimum requirements for each successive tier to keep it challenging and not a zerg.

    I agree about the point that most players these days are casual and don't care for raids, and that's fair enough, it just doesn't appeal to me. I am not a casual player, I will get bored if there isn't a real challenge.

  4. #8504
    to the previous poster.

    No, the system they using can and will (if properly tuned) avoid zergs.

    they have things in place that measure stuff like:
    - number of players
    - dmg being done by every player
    - level of activity in the event (like using turrets, rezzing people, buffing people, repairing stuff, you name it)

    with all that the event is updated in real time, so if you have a bunch of "good geared skilled players" the event will scale harder then if you have a "bunch of noobish players". They promised that, actually in on the videos from gamescon, they said, the system is still being tuned to track player activity, what they doing on the event, when they joined, etc.

    If this system is implemented from start very well tuned, I do believe this massive events can seriously compete with our so familiar and beloved traditional raids. Then again, its in the devs hands to deliver the system as promised ^^
    Waiting for SWTOR (Star wars: the old republic)

    www.swtor.com

    or... GW2... undecided

  5. #8505
    Quote Originally Posted by Tury123 View Post
    It boggles me beyond my imagination to believe people can enjoy raiding, 4 hours inside a dungeon with someone yelling at you giving you orders stuck on the same boss and even if you do down him: not getting the loot you wanted to drop.
    Real raiders don't play for loot, they play for the challenge. I never really gave two hoots about loot, I passed on the legendary mace in Ulduar and I would have passed on the staff in Firelands. Also I was always the guy doing the shouting

    ---------- Post added 2011-09-20 at 01:04 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by xourico View Post
    to the previous poster.

    No, the system they using can and will (if properly tuned) avoid zergs.

    they have things in place that measure stuff like:
    - number of players
    - dmg being done by every player
    - level of activity in the event (like using turrets, rezzing people, buffing people, repairing stuff, you name it)

    with all that the event is updated in real time, so if you have a bunch of "good geared skilled players" the event will scale harder then if you have a "bunch of noobish players". They promised that, actually in on the videos from gamescon, they said, the system is still being tuned to track player activity, what they doing on the event, when they joined, etc.

    If this system is implemented from start very well tuned, I do believe this massive events can seriously compete with our so familiar and beloved traditional raids. Then again, its in the devs hands to deliver the system as promised ^^
    This would be the perfect solution, but the idea of being able to take everyone's stats, their output damage/healing, their damage taken, whether they are doing the right thing at the right time... it's a boat load of variables for a boat load of people, and massively complex. I believe that even if they could pull something like this off they would err on the side of making the content easy, rather than making it challenging.

  6. #8506
    Only thing I am worried about is the fact that Anet will limit the number of players in a zone when there is a huge world boss raid thing in effect. This makes it so there is little/no lag, which is great and all.. but I don't want to have missed out on the damn thing because there are too many people in the zone. I can see it now.. a group of 10-15 people sitting outside the zone, hoping to get in it.

  7. #8507
    Tarien if your idea of endgame is raids then guild wars 2 is not the game for you simple as that. Sorry to put it so bluntly but guild wars is not about being stuffed in a raid with 10 to 25 people wiping 100s of times on the same boss until you down it and do the same thing with the next one. Guild wars 2 is about exploration. And Kicking ass in large scale events that anyone can take part in. If you want something that is both new but old then swtor is the game for you. If you want something that is breaking away from the regular conventions of wow style mmos then guild wars 2 is the game for you.

  8. #8508
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarien View Post

    This would be the perfect solution, but the idea of being able to take everyone's stats, their output damage/healing, their damage taken, whether they are doing the right thing at the right time... it's a boat load of variables for a boat load of people, and massively complex. I believe that even if they could pull something like this off they would err on the side of making the content easy, rather than making it challenging.
    not really, for example, take wow.

    right now in wow imagine the huge amount of traffic and data being transfered, then include add ons, then include add ons that communicate with other add ons.
    the difference is that in gw2 those things dont need to be on the client side, they are all server side, and hence will probably a ton faster then in wow.
    Im saying that becuz afaik gw1 did not support add ons and such, im not sure tho since I never played it.

    but the ammount of information aint that "scary" if you consider a nice example like wow in AV for example where there are 80 people in the same map, and every single action is tracked by the game itself and then obviously by a huge amount of add ons that people use.
    Waiting for SWTOR (Star wars: the old republic)

    www.swtor.com

    or... GW2... undecided

  9. #8509
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarien View Post
    Either way, there needs to be something to do at max level that isn't just more of the same thing you did while levelling. If WoW had no raids, it would not be where it is today. Even the most epic 100man dynamic events are going to get old and dull eventually because you cannot tightly control something in the open world, you cannot limit the number of participants. Look at RIFTs system, there are open world invasions and raid rifts, but they just get zerged and while that is fun at first it soon becomes commonplace.
    Never played Rift and or have any plans to, so this is from outsiders point of view. Rift have holy trinity so when devs are balancing these outdoor bosses they need to consider a lot more variation in possible groups that do the event. For example they need to consider how will event work if there is 10 healers, 5 dps and 5 tank or what happen if there is 5 healers, 14 dps and 1 tank and how that all balance in the end. In GW2 everyone are more or less DPS, so devs have lot less variables they need to worry about. Also when you fail event in GW2 that doesn't mean it's all over, but instead failing event could just trigger different event, so in that case it could be more easier event and in another scenario where players success event it could result more challenging event.

    These events are one main points of GW2 so devs are going to spend lot of time balancing and making them challenging and fun. If Rift events turned easy and simple zergs it just sound like Rift devs failed. Of course Anet could fail too, but I have faith that they will do better job.

  10. #8510
    Quote Originally Posted by Phishy714 View Post
    Only thing I am worried about is the fact that Anet will limit the number of players in a zone when there is a huge world boss raid thing in effect. This makes it so there is little/no lag, which is great and all.. but I don't want to have missed out on the damn thing because there are too many people in the zone. I can see it now.. a group of 10-15 people sitting outside the zone, hoping to get in it.
    I cant quote the dev exactly, but in the panels in gamescon I believe? or maybe pax? they said that while zone have player limits, they firmly believe those limits would never be reached as they are extremely high. So I don't expect to encounter stuff limited like TB in WOW for example.

    tbh, I never knew how successful GW1 had been, with over 7 Million copies sold (in theory, GW1 is the 2nd most played MMO, ofc, since it has no sub, its impossible to know how many pppl are active currently I guess), to be honest that gives me hope that they would make GW2 a really good MMO.
    Last edited by xourico; 2011-09-20 at 12:26 AM.
    Waiting for SWTOR (Star wars: the old republic)

    www.swtor.com

    or... GW2... undecided

  11. #8511
    Quote Originally Posted by xourico View Post
    but the ammount of information aint that "scary" if you consider a nice example like wow in AV for example where there are 80 people in the same map, and every single action is tracked by the game itself and then obviously by a huge amount of add ons that people use.
    All that is passed about in WoW is pure data, and the only data really is what is in the combat log, what abilities were used and what did they hit for?

    The system you described would have to look at players stats, it would have to evaluate their behavious. Trust me it would be a lot more complex for it to really work.

  12. #8512
    Quote Originally Posted by Phishy714 View Post
    Only thing I am worried about is the fact that Anet will limit the number of players in a zone when there is a huge world boss raid thing in effect. This makes it so there is little/no lag, which is great and all.. but I don't want to have missed out on the damn thing because there are too many people in the zone. I can see it now.. a group of 10-15 people sitting outside the zone, hoping to get in it.
    I've never heard anything like this, can you cite an interview or an official quote from a dev?

  13. #8513
    Quote Originally Posted by leipuri View Post
    Never played Rift and or have any plans to, so this is from outsiders point of view. Rift have holy trinity so when devs are balancing these outdoor bosses they need to consider a lot more variation in possible groups that do the event. For example they need to consider how will event work if there is 10 healers, 5 dps and 5 tank or what happen if there is 5 healers, 14 dps and 1 tank and how that all balance in the end.
    If there are ten healers it's going to take a long time, if there are ten dps or ten tanks you're screwed. I imagine that the Devs sensibly assume that a certain % of people will step up and tank and heal, and if they don't well tough, you're going to wipe. Which is exactly what happens.

  14. #8514
    my local shop is selling GW1 + factions/eotn/nightfall for £25, am considering getting it for the HoM rewards. would it be worth it to start from scratch completely new now?
    http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Quel%27Thalas&n=Rofflemau

  15. #8515
    Quote Originally Posted by morlem View Post
    Tarien if your idea of endgame is raids then guild wars 2 is not the game for you simple as that. Sorry to put it so bluntly but guild wars is not about being stuffed in a raid with 10 to 25 people wiping 100s of times on the same boss until you down it and do the same thing with the next one. Guild wars 2 is about exploration. And Kicking ass in large scale events that anyone can take part in. If you want something that is both new but old then swtor is the game for you. If you want something that is breaking away from the regular conventions of wow style mmos then guild wars 2 is the game for you.
    I'm not saying that it's the only idea, I was kinda hoping that ArenaNet had some cool new system, but there are always limits.

    You say that GW2 is about exploration, well sorry but there is a limit to how much you can see. Large scale events that anyone can take part in sounds cool but that is exactly what Rift does, although admittedly it does sound as though GW2 will do it better, but even so they aren't that ground breaking and you will get bored of them, trust me.

    Honestly, can no one tell me where the challenge is in this game?

    EDIT: Perhaps you are right and GW2 will be too casual for me, which is a shame

  16. #8516
    the challenge is in pvp and the level 80 dungeons and events. Dont give up on it until you try it. The massive events at 80 are suposed to be hard, even the lower levels events we saw in some demos and at expos are supposed to be hard, in the demos the dificulty of the encounters was lowered (the devs confirmed this) becuz they want ppl to see the whole encounter and stuff I guess.

    Tbh I will try it, even if I leave couple months after if I find the "endgame" lacking, either way its a safe buy since it involves no fee.
    Waiting for SWTOR (Star wars: the old republic)

    www.swtor.com

    or... GW2... undecided

  17. #8517
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarien View Post
    If there are ten healers it's going to take a long time, if there are ten dps or ten tanks you're screwed. I imagine that the Devs sensibly assume that a certain % of people will step up and tank and heal, and if they don't well tough, you're going to wipe. Which is exactly what happens.
    Yes, but my point was that there is lot more possible combinations of healer/dps/tank roles that devs need to consider when balancing such events. I am assuming that if you have more than "intended" amount of healers some mechanics get trivialized and event will just take longer, though it sound like these events are trivial regardless of that and devs just made these easy in Rift.

  18. #8518
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarien View Post
    Perhaps you are right and GW2 will be too casual for me, which is a shame
    Love how that gets thrown out when people don't understand the game.

    You said in an earlier post, you don't raid for the loot, but for the challenge, so why is GW2 too casual for you then? Just because there's not 25 people killing one boss?

  19. #8519
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarien View Post
    Honestly, can no one tell me where the challenge is in this game?

    EDIT: Perhaps you are right and GW2 will be too casual for me, which is a shame
    5 mans in GW2 will be anything but casual. I can fish up my post on what the devs claimed PvE would typically consist of if you want, but I have a feeling you've read it already.

    ---------- Post added 2011-09-19 at 08:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Maklor View Post
    Yeah..... you didn't really read up on it did you?

    There is no real tanking /healing and such.
    I believe he was talking about the Rift devs there.

  20. #8520
    i understaned from the vids tht gw2 depends ALOT on positioning for spells/abilities ie: elementalist fire breath thingy is in a cone infront of u

    now tht is AWESOME on paper but .. i played wow with 100-250 ms so will tht kill pvp for me in gw2 ? assuming GW1 servers r with GW2 servers where r they located ?

    now for the guys arguing about raids and end game content , GW2 seems more like a single player rpg where the leveling part is actualy the most fun learning skills from differnt locations/ actions doing ur personal story + the added benefits of being able to experince tht with ur frnds which is really good i love tht idea and i hope it is well made

    1 more question : how long does it take to level ? if any 1 saw a vid/ played demos can u tell me how long did it take to get a few lvls ? ( Hope its not tht fast to be able to experince the game fully)

    Edit: few typos
    Last edited by bladebeso; 2011-09-20 at 12:49 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •