Gurth'alak bugged?

[Handsylton]

That is 10K DPS while it is attacking. I don't quite know if you understand that based on the way you phrased the above, but the low proc chance makes this 10K DPS during uptime much lower overall.

Yeah I had a brainfart when I wrote that.. wasn't paying attention that it's dps is calculated from activity uptime, not the amount of dps over the course of the whole fight. I figured that part out. It's still an extremely strong proc though, it has contributed anywhere from 1.5k to 6k of my total damage depending on how lucky I get with procs.

I was actually thinking about something however. The problem with the LFR version of Gurthalak is basically you are giving up higher self-damage from Normal Sulfuras for higher overall damage with the proc included. LFR Gurthalak is a clear winner, as the worst Gurthalak parse is equal to a higher end Normal Sulfuras parse.

I had an idea about how to basically have the best of both worlds. The highest value-point where Sulfuras outshines Gurthalak is during our cooldown phase. At this point, our 3.8 speed weapon clearly outshines the 3.6 Gurthalak if you do not include the tentacle spawns. However, over the course of an entire fight, Gurthalak will do more damage. So my thought is:

WEAPON SWAP MACRO.

Have your cooldowns tied into one button, with the first sequence of your "I WIN" button as /equip Sulfuras, the Extinguished Hand. Go through your entire cooldown rotation, and when Avenging Wrath/Zealotry wears off, weapon swap to Gurthalak to take advantage of the tentacle proc producing higher overall dps. When you get back to your cooldown phase, activating your cooldowns will re-equip Sulfuras, you will gain the entire benefit from the slower weapon speed on the part of our combat rotation where weapon speed matters most.

Weapon swapping the LFR version of Gurthalak and Sulfuras may calculate out to higher dps until you get lucky and get the normal version of Gurthalak, which will easily outshine Normal Sulfuras.

Just an idea for those who will have poor luck getting DW to spill his tasty loot!!

[Croack]

Does the Mind Flay from the Corrupter Tentacle appear under your list of damaging abilities? So does it go Hand of Light > TV > CS > melee > Mind Flay? Or is it not recording the damage from the proc like that? When I have the option "Merge Pets w/Owners", the proc doesn't even show up as a pet, which the tentacle is classified as such, so I'm just wondering it it's a problem with recount or what's going on.

It shows "Tentacle of the old ones - Mind Fly" and i use skada btw
Question: is the proc affected by haste or is just rng proc ?, sometimes it happens to get 4 tentacles out at the same time

[MorphexEU]

It shows "Tentacle of the old ones - Mind Fly" and i use skada btw
Question: is the proc affected by haste or is just rng proc ?, sometimes it happens to get 4 tentacles out at the same time

It's affected by haste in the way that you deal damage more often.

[Requital]

Right now, the way weapons are going to look (my estimation) is:

H Gurth'alak > Gurth'alak > H Specimen Slicer > H Mace > H Sulfuras > LFR Gurth'alak > Normal Specimen Slicer > Normal Mace > Normal Sulfuras

LFR Gurth'alak is stronger then you think most certainly closer to the 3rd BiS or 4th at the most.

[Handsylton]

LFR Gurth'alak is stronger then you think most certainly closer to the 3rd BiS or 4th at the most.

While the proc is EXTREMELY strong (I don't disagree on that point), I've tested it back to back with Normal Sulfuras pretty extensively, and while it is definitely a better weapon concerning sheer output, the 3.8 speed and higher weapon damage/stat allocation from H Sulfuras, as well as the higher ilvl/weapon damage from the heroic versions should outweigh the proc. The tentacle makes up for the lack of actual weapon damage from the sword, but I don't think it will outweigh a full tier and a half of stats/weapon damage.

[Requital]

While the proc is EXTREMELY strong (I don't disagree on that point), I've tested it back to back with Normal Sulfuras pretty extensively, and while it is definitely a better weapon concerning sheer output, the 3.8 speed and higher weapon damage/stat allocation from H Sulfuras, as well as the higher ilvl/weapon damage from the heroic versions should outweigh the proc. The tentacle makes up for the lack of actual weapon damage from the sword, but I don't think it will outweigh a full tier and a half of stats/weapon damage.

From using the LFR version I'll say it's on par or slightly ahead of Heroic Sulf, I still put it a step ahead based on all the numbers I have seen to this point.

[Siri]

It will be useless in pvp since it can be outranged, silenced etc.

The tentacle flays targets that are 40-50 yards away (yes, seriously).
If you were close enough to hit someone and proc the tentacle they won't outrange it.
If anything the weakness is that it has a very low hit point total.

[DemaioJ]

I've seen tentacle buddy getting healed by ground based effects like healing rain.

[Handsylton]

I've seen tentacle buddy getting healed by ground based effects like healing rain.

The tentacle is classified as a pet, therefore it takes vastly reduced AoE damage and is able to be healed, just like a pet. Wonderful thing, isn't it?

Also, Requital, I've tested LFR Gurthalak against Normal Sulfuras, and while the proc is very good (the lowest Gurthalak parse was equal to the highest Normal Sulfuras parse), you have to take into account the cooldown phase, in which weapon damage and the 3.8 weapon speed scales much better than the tentacle does. If anything, I would support a weapon swap macro to switch to Heroic or Normal Sulfuras during Avenging Wrath/Zealotry, as the slower speed beats out the proc in value during our burn phases.

[Stealthdrip]

I personally know the ret pally in our raid got one of normal deathwing and has been doing amazing with it ever since.

[Handsylton]

I personally know the ret pally in our raid got one of normal deathwing and has been doing amazing with it ever since.

Not surprising, Normal Gurthalak's tentacle has a higher base damage than the LFR version, it easily outweighs the stats of the Normal Mace and the Normal Axe. Not to mention the higher ilvl/weapon damage and you can't really go wrong. Easily better than both the Heroic Axe and Heroic Mace.

[Croack]

It's affected by haste in the way that you deal damage more often.

so... is haste better than crit if u have gurth'alak?

[Reith]

so... is haste better than crit if u have gurth'alak?

highly doubt it, since it's also affected by your crit.

[Deleted]

It's definately bugged on Ultraxion. Tried the LFR version out tonight on an alt run instead of the hc Shannox Axe, damage was around on average 12% of my total but got no procs at all on that fight. I see someone earlier in the thread mentioned this fight, I guess I can try standing closer but I know I'll get screamed at by our healers.

[Handsylton]

It's definately bugged on Ultraxion. Tried the LFR version out tonight on an alt run instead of the hc Shannox Axe, damage was around on average 12% of my total but got no procs at all on that fight. I see someone earlier in the thread mentioned this fight, I guess I can try standing closer but I know I'll get screamed at by our healers.

It is an issue with the pet AI targeting mechanism. I paraphrased what a GM told me from an answered ticket in Anaxie's BiS thread, but basically, because Ultraxion has such a large hitbox, the tentacle can not distinguish whether it is facing the boss or not. If it spawns and thinks the boss is behind it, it will not cast Mind Flay. Standing 1 yard in front of the first line from the edge of the platform will allow the tentacles to spawn and cast Mind Flay. Ask your group to move up with you, it doesn't make too much of a difference.

I've done more testing, and it is definitely worth weapon swapping from LFR Gurthalak -> Normal Sulfuras or Normal Gurthalak -> Heroic Sulfuras for our cooldown phases and then swapping back after AW/Zeal expires. It is approximately a 2k dps gain (roughly 4ish% dps boost) to weapon swap, as the half tier of itemization/damage does not outweigh the slower speeds of Sulfuras.

REMEMBER:

1) LFR Gurthalak -> Normal/Heroic Sulfuras = DPS gain.
2) Normal Gurthalak -> Heroic Sulfuras = DPS gain.

Just remember to swap to your version of Sulfuras right before or during the cast of your cooldowns, and swap back to Gurthalak directly after Zealotry ends, and directly after you've put both CS and Judgement on cooldown. This will essentially make the weapon swap take up an empty GCD to limit the loss of the swaps.

[Reith]

I've done more testing, and it is definitely worth weapon swapping from LFR Gurthalak -> Normal Sulfuras or Normal Gurthalak -> Heroic Sulfuras for our cooldown phases and then swapping back after AW/Zeal expires. It is approximately a 2k dps gain (roughly 4ish% dps boost) to weapon swap, as the half tier of itemization/damage does not outweigh the slower speeds of Sulfuras.

REMEMBER:

1) LFR Gurthalak -> Normal/Heroic Sulfuras = DPS gain.
2) Normal Gurthalak -> Heroic Sulfuras = DPS gain.

I oughta smack you, dude, seriously. Did you even read what I wrote in the other thread? Sulfuras being 3.8 weapon speed does not give it magical damage-increasing powers. I'm not fricken arguing that it's probably more reliable during cooldowns. I'm arguing with how you're saying that weapon speed has ANYTHING to do with it. It doesn't. Does not. Seriously: doesn't. That's it.

[Handsylton]

I oughta smack you, dude, seriously. Did you even read what I wrote in the other thread? Sulfuras being 3.8 weapon speed does not give it magical damage-increasing powers. I'm not fricken arguing that it's probably more reliable during cooldowns. I'm arguing with how you're saying that weapon speed has ANYTHING to do with it. It doesn't. Does not. Seriously: doesn't. That's it.

You don't understand how our combat mechanics work at all, do you? Do you know why Normal Sulfuras was better than Heroic Zoids/Skullstealer? If you can recall, the weapon damage on Heroic Zoids/Skullstealer was higher than Normal Sulfuras. That means it was a superior weapon, amidoinitrite???

You aren't taking into account that on our most important attack, TV, weapon speed isn't normalized, so we get a much higher contribution of AP to our TV's with Sulfuras than with Gurthalak. To top it off, the stats on Sulfuras are reliable during our cooldowns, and the fact it is a slower weapon increases it's value much more than normal during cooldown phases. All of these factors add up to it being a much more reliable as well as a higher damage output during cooldowns than Gurthalak.

Learn your mechanics.

[Reith]

You don't understand how our combat mechanics work at all, do you? Do you know why Normal Sulfuras was better than Heroic Zoids/Skullstealer? If you can recall, the weapon damage on Heroic Zoids/Skullstealer was higher than Normal Sulfuras. That means it was a superior weapon, amidoinitrite???

You aren't taking into account that on our most important attack, TV, weapon speed isn't normalized, so we get a much higher contribution of AP to our TV's with Sulfuras than with Gurthalak. To top it off, the stats on Sulfuras are reliable during our cooldowns, and the fact it is a slower weapon increases it's value much more than normal during cooldown phases. All of these factors add up to it being a much more reliable as well as a higher damage output during cooldowns than Gurthalak.

Learn your mechanics.

Where's your evidence, then? I don't see it.

[Handsylton]

Where's your evidence, then? I don't see it.

It's common knowledge that Templar's Verdict is not normalized. Just equip LFR Gurthalak, which has a higher ilvl and higher damage range and do a full 5 minute parse without cooldowns, then swap to Normal Sulfuras and do another full 5 minute parse without cooldowns, and look at which one hits harder. It's blatantly obvious that Templar's Verdict is not normalized.

That being said, there is a very simple formula that Blizzard implemented to normalize most attacks. This formula is:

Base Weapon Damage + ( X * AP / 14 ) = Normalized Weapon Damage. For 2H weapons, X = 3.3

Therefore, if all attacks were normalized, we would automatically pick the highest damage range weapon, because it would hit the hardest.

However, many of our key attacks are not normalized. Those are particularly Judgement, Templar's Verdict, and Seal of Truth hits. So, in order to figure out the non-normalized damage of these weapons, you would replace X, or the normalization factor, with the weapon speed you have equipped. That would look something like this:

Base Weapon Damage + ( 3.6 * AP / 14 ) = Final Weapon Damage. <-- Gurthalak's non-normalized weapon damage.

or

Base Weapon Damage + ( 3.8 * AP / 14 ) = Final Weapon Damage. <-- Sulfuras's non-normalized weapon damage.

I currently have a completely unbuffed (no might, no auras, no nothing) AP of 13001.

The average base damage of LFR Gurthalak is 2396 - 3595 damage. We want to use the average, so ( 3595 + 2396 ) / 2 = 2995.5 Base Damage.

The average base damage of Normal Sulfuras is 2392 - 3588 damage. We want to use the average, so ( 3588 + 2392 ) / 2 = 2990 Base Damage.

From first appearances, the LFR Gurthalak looks superior. But now, you have to contribute AP to your non-normalized weapon swings.

---

For the sake of argument, let's look at what would happen if all attacks were normalized.

LFR Gurthalak = (2995.5) + (3.3 * 13001 / 14) = 6060 Final Weapon Damage.

Normal Sulfuras = (2990) + (3.3 * 13001 / 14) = 6054.5 Final Weapon Damage.

If this were the case, than yes, LFR Gurthalak would outright be better than Normal Sulfuras in any situation.

However, this is not the case.

---

This is how the formula actually works on non-normalized attacks (TV, Seal of Truth hits, Judgement).

LFR Gurthalak = (2995.5) + (3.6 * 13001 / 14) = 6338.61 Final Weapon Damage.

Normal Sulfuras = (2990) + (3.8 * 13001 / 14) = 6518.84 Final Weapon Damage.

All of a sudden, Normal Sulfuras hits with the equivalent of 100 STR more contribution to TV.

---

After the math, you have to take into account that fully raid buffed, with damage modifiers applied, this gap will grow exponentially. As your AP and your % damage increases, the chasm between the two's Final Weapon Damage increases due to the non-normalized modifier. This is why Weapon Speed has been the biggest factor in BiS weapons, and why weapon swapping to Normal Sulfuras over LFR Gurthalak for cooldowns, or weapon swapping to Heroic Sulfuras over Normal Gurthalak for cooldowns is a dps increase, because these increases are exponential, especially considering our mastery, which double dips the scaling of AP and the size of Templar's Verdict.

[Reith]

Alright then, I admit I was wrong about the weapon speed thing. Now I need to work on getting heroic Sulfuras...