Can we trust Frostheim/WHU anymore

[Sylaman]

I enjoy reading articles and guides that Frostheim writes, this isnt to say I follow them to the word, the point is to get an idea of how to be a better hunter and adapt to it yourself.

[Kayko]

I don't even understand why it takes Heroic raids or even playing the game at all for that matter in order to create a resource for information? World of Warcraft information is plentiful, there are countless sites that contain a large amount of information along with complete and detailed combat parse information available to anyone with internet access.

No matter what gear a player has, the EXACT same formulas for damage, healing, and mitigation apply. A matter of solving the formulas and there interactions with each other what is takes to provide valuable information.

Along the thoughts of Zehereh only doing normal modes, She is 6/7 Heroic Firelands (and hasn't just done them once or twice either) and currently 1 heroic in Dragonsoul. No matter what content she has be involved with, a player can not solo current raid content (without some strange gimmick maybe, ie hunter solo the blind dragon). It takes a group of people to do the content and just because you may be ready to jump to the next guild at a whim to get that next heroic boss, more players are loyal to their guild and their friends.

I have listened to many of podcasts with Frostheim having players that work for world firsts basically confirm everything that Frostheim has said over the years. The WHU site provides access to the information in a easier and yes, more general type form. It is not set up for your exact latency, your exact CPU/GPU (frame rate), your exact user latency. It is general information to point players to a very close optimal set up for a large mass of players. The math at which he uses to come up with the suggestions are correct. Go grab a calculator and do them yourself if you are so sure the information is bad.

Now, typically, I always see these bash Frost posts and find out that these are the same people that always seem to bring up two things. First, "Frost doesn't even do heroics.. blah blah.. he acts likes he's XX of XX in heroics.. blah blah.." Then also tend to make note of how Elitist Jerks is a far better site for information. Lets take a look.... hmm, 2 heroics in Dragonsoul so far.. that seems odd to me that out of how people tend to claim about how much heroics matter to proper information, but yet they are not working for world firsts in any way and they tend to have all their information out well before they even attempt even the normal modes of a current tier. Sure, no doubt they will have all the content down within the current level of tier, but still, it'ss really strange how many people tend to forget that all this theorycrafting is done before that tier is even available.

[Deleted]

From my experience, I've noticed people tend to forget to use their brains. Looks like every piece of information written on the internet is meant to be an irrefutable guide to how to play your class or improve your dps, and it isn't. Use your critical thinking skills. Use that information to improve. If you blindingly follow that info as rules then you are doing it wrong.

[refire]

I don't even understand why it takes Heroic raids or even playing the game at all for that matter in order to create a resource for information? World of Warcraft information is plentiful, there are countless sites that contain a large amount of information along with complete and detailed combat parse information available to anyone with internet access.

No matter what gear a player has, the EXACT same formulas for damage, healing, and mitigation apply. A matter of solving the formulas and there interactions with each other what is takes to provide valuable information.

Along the thoughts of Zehereh only doing normal modes, She is 6/7 Heroic Firelands (and hasn't just done them once or twice either) and currently 1 heroic in Dragonsoul. No matter what content she has be involved with, a player can not solo current raid content (without some strange gimmick maybe, ie hunter solo the blind dragon). It takes a group of people to do the content and just because you may be ready to jump to the next guild at a whim to get that next heroic boss, more players are loyal to their guild and their friends.

I have listened to many of podcasts with Frostheim having players that work for world firsts basically confirm everything that Frostheim has said over the years. The WHU site provides access to the information in a easier and yes, more general type form. It is not set up for your exact latency, your exact CPU/GPU (frame rate), your exact user latency. It is general information to point players to a very close optimal set up for a large mass of players. The math at which he uses to come up with the suggestions are correct. Go grab a calculator and do them yourself if you are so sure the information is bad.

Now, typically, I always see these bash Frost posts and find out that these are the same people that always seem to bring up two things. First, "Frost doesn't even do heroics.. blah blah.. he acts likes he's XX of XX in heroics.. blah blah.." Then also tend to make note of how Elitist Jerks is a far better site for information. Lets take a look.... hmm, 2 heroics in Dragonsoul so far.. that seems odd to me that out of how people tend to claim about how much heroics matter to proper information, but yet they are not working for world firsts in any way and they tend to have all their information out well before they even attempt even the normal modes of a current tier. Sure, no doubt they will have all the content down within the current level of tier, but still, it'ss really strange how many people tend to forget that all this theorycrafting is done before that tier is even available.

I guess you missed his podcast with Kripparrian where you could just hear Kripparrian trying to hold back laughter at the stupid stuff and ideas he was saying. Or you missed the articles in wrath where he said armor pen was horrible and that there was nothing gained from switching to it. Sorry but as I said in my first post on this thread if you've been playing a hunter at max level for less than two weeks something he says may be beneficial. Any longer than that and it will be either wrong information or worthless information he's spewing.

[Deleted]

I dont visit EJ anymore since its decline of smart posts which were the only source of info anyway, the guides are a wall of shit. Frostheim announced how bad he was with the ARP discussion back in the icc days and femaledwarf is okish if u take it for what it is.

[Deepfriedegg]

Info on WHU is not for raiding hunters. Frostheim himself doesnt raid anymore for 9 months.

He lost his credibility with his "haste plateaus analysis" overlooking things such as Burning Adrenaline or MMM procs. Basically he was advocating haste "plateaus" that were used during 10% of the fight at most in FL (looking at you, CS, 2x AS, 5x SS cycle). And for SV and BM the analysis was completely wrong, the cycles he was operating with were just wrong (too focus positive).

Anyway, WHU is still good for beginning hunters, I would recommend that site until you actually start to raid.
EJ has very good, maybe too much detailed section on MM. Cannot say anything about SV and BM as I have not read them.
Female Dwarf is very good for comparing gear pieces. It is not a tool for telling you how much DPS you should do.

---------- Post added 2011-12-29 at 06:34 PM ----------

I guess you missed his podcast with Kripparrian where you could just hear Kripparrian trying to hold back laughter at the stupid stuff and ideas he was saying. Or you missed the articles in wrath where he said armor pen was horrible and that there was nothing gained from switching to it. Sorry but as I said in my first post on this thread if you've been playing a hunter at max level for less than two weeks something he says may be beneficial. Any longer than that and it will be either wrong information or worthless information he's spewing.

Well, I think I missed the part when he told how ARP was bad in ICC. He was always telling it was good in ICC from a certain point ( believe it was 600ish). After all he had all his gems ArP and was very, very close to ArP cap. At that time he was very reliable hunter guide because he had his claims backed up by his experience. I think it would be fair if he has a big fat statement on front page that he doesnt raid anymore. In that case I would be absolutely fine with his site. Problem is that raiding hunters come there to find good fresh information. You will not find it there anymore, sadly.

[jax]

He didn't call for a nerf he just said it was going to come.

LOL he not only called for it, he gave tons of reasons why it should be nerfed, posted no real data, defended his not posting data, and not only in the below blog, he posted 4 to 5 different times on his blog all about how OP SV was... he even counters the scaling issues that we all knew were there back in 4.06 and calls it a lie and that it didn't really exist....

He's the worst kind of blogger... one that has no practical experience and no real understanding of what he is posting about... that people even use his site after all his ignorance is indicative of the lack of real hunter information out there.

http://www.warcrafthuntersunion.com/...conversations/

For those that do not want to read the entire blog full of shit below is just one of the quotes directly from it:

I emphatically don’t think we need a big nerf. I don’t think we need anything like the great BM nerf (which we didn’t need then either). But right now it looks like we need our SV output lowered a little bit, and the other specs raised a bit.

If that is not calling for a nerf, I dont know what is LULZ...

[refire]

LOL he not only called for it, he gave tons of reasons why it should be nerfed, posted no real data, defended his not posting data, and not only in the below blog, he posted 4 to 5 different times on his blog all about how OP SV was... he even counters the scaling issues that we all knew were there back in 4.06 and calls it a lie and that it didn't really exist....

He's the worst kind of blogger... one that has no practical experience and no real understanding of what he is posting about... that people even use his site after all his ignorance is indicative of the lack of real hunter information out there.

http://www.warcrafthuntersunion.com/...conversations/

For those that do not want to read the entire blog full of shit below is just one of the quotes directly from it:



If that is not calling for a nerf, I dont know what is LULZ...

It made complete sense to call for a nerf after three weeks when all hunters could get 4 set of pvp which only required a few hours of pvp (which was bis for pve at the time) and hunters got around 15% (possibly more I don't remember how much I had the first day of BoT) of their effective AP (hawk and mark) instantly for dinging 85. Because you know that 15% of hawk and mark scale with gear and aren't static values that won't change throughout the whole expansion plus other classes weren't going to make up the gear gap that we gained by doing 3 hours of pvp in a few weeks of raiding. Oh wait . . .

[Hurpdurp]

I guess you missed his podcast with Kripparrian where you could just hear Kripparrian trying to hold back laughter at the stupid stuff and ideas he was saying. Or you missed the articles in wrath where he said armor pen was horrible and that there was nothing gained from switching to it. Sorry but as I said in my first post on this thread if you've been playing a hunter at max level for less than two weeks something he says may be beneficial. Any longer than that and it will be either wrong information or worthless information he's spewing.

I hate I missed that podcast... I need to try and find that one.

I remember the ArP discussion and sitting at my keyboard going huh... is he serious? I also remember some hoopla about haste calculations. He didnt use the correct spec or something, and it was really throwing people. Granted his math was correct based on the talents he took... those werent the talents the masses of end gamers were taking therefore people using those haste #'s were screwed.

Again WHU is awesome for a 1st time hunter that wants to find the basics in one nice neat package. I do refer people to the site for that reason only. EJ I lost a lot of respect for over the last year or so. I agree with the above in that how can a site/guild full of such min/maxers not be progressed more than they are.

I think in general most end game players have their select "players" they follow and use them to plan/learn from. With utube channels and such it is easy to track these players, and have quick easy access to their vids/input. I dont think there will ever be a site that the top end game hunters (or w/e class) get together, create, and keep updated with the best info ect... They would rather be raiding and I cant blame them .

[GobbieHunter]

Well then, where should raiding hunters go for information then? I'm just curious as to what alternatives you guys use.

[TJ]

Well then, where should raiding hunters go for information then? I'm just curious as to what alternatives you guys use.

Personally i dont look at any site like EJ or WHU, i look at the top logs to see what the highest damage dealers are doing and see what setup they are using. I then look at their logs to see if they are top dps because of their setup/reforge or because of good rng/TOTT etc. Finally i also like to go and test on the dummys to see whats better, i know dummys arent accurate but its good to see if you have a flowing rotation and to have a rough idea on things.

[Slaps]

The thing about Frost that I vehemently disagree with is his stubborn and arrogant insistence that being 10th/22 specs as MM was during FL, is somehow "middle of the pack."

For ANYONE raiding even semi seriously, the raid leader will not and should not indulge people who want to play inferior performing specs. Thus, for progression, hard mode raiding, you only count the top spec for each class (as anyone not bringing the top spec wouldn't be taken for endgame). That put MM and the hunter class, LAST, not middle of the pack.

For casual guilds who only bang their heads against normals and let mages raid as frost (or whatever suboptimal spec someone prefers to raid in) then YES hunters were middle of the pack.

For progression raiding, you don't count that. Hunters were dead last for progression and his direct pipeline to Ghostcrawler feeding him "Pfft don't listen to those haters, hunters are fine" damaged our class, and diminished my enjoyment of this expansion.

I'm not the world's best hunter but I am 5/8 hardmode, and Frostheim does not speak for me.

If he would admit that his comments only apply to normal raids, where spec comp doesn't matter, I would respect him more. But as far as endgame he clearly has no idea what he's talking about and his dwarf schtick has run stale. He hurts the community more than he helps with his myriad errors and arrogant "heroic raids don't matter" attitude.

Does anyone even read his columns anymore? Or even go to wow insider for that matter? Feels like both are dying, and deservedly so.

[Salionski]

The great thing about what Frostheim used to do was back everything he said with in game testing. He would use
Zeherahs site, back of the napkin math and in game testing to produce his results.

When was this? When hunters on my server started mentioning Frostheim back in ICC he wasn't using in game testing then either. When even most of the slower servers had multiple guilds that were 11/12 heroic in ICC...Frostheim still hadn't cleared regular.The majority of the quotes I've seen him get right were regurgitated from more reliable sources.

I've never seen him as a reliable source of information for progression focused hunters. I doubt there are many here that actually hate him or are jealous of him. But there are quite a few that are probably frustrated with his "popularity". We're a class that has been plagued with lack of communication regarding bugs & issues. And Blizz is more likely to listen to his (mis)information over the people who have a more intimate knowledge of the current state of the class. This wouldn't really be an issue if we had a competent dev that actually knew anything about the current issues regarding the class (and not just more rare pets, stable slots and other vanity concerns).

[Blackmist]

If you're trusting somebody else without testing it, you're doing it wrong anyway. And who can say who is right? SimulationCraft puts MM at the top still, Zehara's chooses SV. And neither will be accurate unless they introduce a level 85 Patchwerk encounter.

I reckon EJ should do an experiment, where they give out completely the wrong stat weights, then scan the armory to see how many people have blindly reforged to what they said...

[Daytraders]

I use World of Logs, Armory, Elitist Jerks, and Female Dwarf. In that order. I spit on WHU. MMO-champ I don't use for hunter info because of the amount of beginners.

[Hockeyy]

If you're trusting somebody else without testing it, you're doing it wrong anyway. And who can say who is right? SimulationCraft puts MM at the top still, Zehara's chooses SV. And neither will be accurate unless they introduce a level 85 Patchwerk encounter.

I reckon EJ should do an experiment, where they give out completely the wrong stat weights, then scan the armory to see how many people have blindly reforged to what they said...

You do realize that Ultraxion is the level 85 Patchwerk encounter, right? You only lose less than a second of dps time if you use the ability correctly instead of blindly using it 3-4 seconds before you need to.

[Sj]

Even if you weren't around when Frostheim said all that stuff about ArP, you still have his "7-second" SV rotation to WTF at. Apparently he doesn't realizing doing the same damage in 7 seconds as you could in just 6 is a DPS loss.

[cmagrad]

A lot of new players need to be TOLD how to play their class and think the guide sites are written in stone.
Sometimes a spoon is just a spoon. Guides are guides and are ment to help you out but in the end you need to figure out what works best for yourself.

[Deleted]

A lot of new players need to be TOLD how to play their class and think the guide sites are written in stone.
Sometimes a spoon is just a spoon. Guides are guides and are ment to help you out but in the end you need to figure out what works best for yourself.

While this is most likely the most sane post i have read it dont change the fact that they post things that just arent true.

[Wolfshark]

If you're trusting somebody else without testing it, you're doing it wrong anyway. And who can say who is right? SimulationCraft puts MM at the top still, Zehara's chooses SV. And neither will be accurate unless they introduce a level 85 Patchwerk encounter.

I reckon EJ should do an experiment, where they give out completely the wrong stat weights, then scan the armory to see how many people have blindly reforged to what they said...

Does Ultraxion not fall under the classification of a "patchwerk fight"? because i am fairly sure it does..

and if you argue no because we have to press dream every min... you are wrong


ON ANOTHER NOTE

Frostheim has never strived to become hardcore because he has too much shit to do anyway (hence why he stopped playing the game he LOVES yet continues to keep the site alive...)

just to add to that ALL OF YOU should know that you take all information from the web with a grain of salt, ALOT of stupid people post really stupid shit, i mean look at this topic, its not like frost is ever going to read any of this...