Question about the "no subscription system".

[Primal Zed]

So, your claim is that PvE content doesn't split people because it's PvE? Not having access to PvE endgame areas for some people and having for others will not split those people?

Come one now. No one can honestly believe that, not even the most fervent fanboy.

Well, seeing as rhandric specified that the bonus mission pack is single player - how would some players having access to additional single player content split the community? You'd have a point if it were group content, but that does not seem to be the case here.

[Lothaeryn]

So, your claim is that PvE content doesn't split people because it's PvE? Not having access to PvE endgame areas for some people and having for others will not split those people?

Come one now. No one can honestly believe that, not even the most fervent fanboy.

buying a single player content pack is just like buying a book related to the lore of the game, It provides no bonus if acquired, and does nothing but add a small tidbit to the gameplay of the PVE scene, but since it doesn't allow multiplayer, no one is left out, its just for whoever decides it is worth their money. Which is completely fine by me

[Lucky_]

The ONLY dungeon pack in the shop is the Bonus Mission Pack, which was originally free for a limited time (if you bought $X amount from the in-game store, which IIRC at the time was only character slots and pvp unlock packs). For ~6 months after that it was unable to be obtained, and there was an outcry of people who missed the opportunity and wanted it, thus it got added to the store. Stop spreading information that while true to the detail obscures the reality.

So, if you don't buy stuff from in-game store, you're SOL on parts PvE end game content. Yes, that is exactly what we have been saying.

Direct comparison - Wotlk: you are unable to access ruby sanctum if you don't pay extra 8.99€ or buy TRH. Can you imagine the shitstorm if that actually happened?

[rhandric]

So, your claim is that PvE content doesn't split people because it's PvE? Not having access to PvE endgame areas for some people and having for others will not split those people?

Come one now. No one can honestly believe that, not even the most fervent fanboy.

People not having access to a single-player area doesn't split the community, since even if they did have it they would be playing by themselves. Try applying some critical thinking in the future.

[Lucky_]

buying a single player content pack is just like buying a book related to the lore of the game, It provides no bonus if acquired, and does nothing but add a small tidbit to the gameplay of the PVE scene, but since it doesn't allow multiplayer, no one is left out, its just for whoever decides it is worth their money. Which is completely fine by me

So basically, your don't care about PvE, it doesn't affect you, therefore the claim that it splits PvE community... is false?

You really do not see the problem in there?

[Lothaeryn]

So, if you don't buy stuff from in-game store, you're SOL on parts PvE end game content. Yes, that is exactly what we have been saying.

Direct comparison - Wotlk: you are unable to access ruby sanctum if you don't pay extra 8.99€ or buy TRH. Can you imagine the shitstorm if that actually happened?

Um, no, that pack would be like having someone paying for the PLants Vs Zombies minigame in Cataclysm, it adds no bonus or benefit to the game at all, only cosmetic and non stat items

[rhandric]

So, if you don't buy stuff from in-game store, you're SOL on parts PvE end game content. Yes, that is exactly what we have been saying.

Direct comparison - Wotlk: you are unable to access ruby sanctum if you don't pay extra 8.99€ or buy TRH. Can you imagine the shitstorm if that actually happened?

No, it'd be like saying you can't access...hell, there is no comparison in WoW because there's no individual dungeons in WoW. But since it's single player content, it's on the player to decide if it's worth it, it's not like they can be forced to get it or not be able to play with their friends.



---------- Post added 2012-01-21 at 04:29 PM ----------

Um, no, that pack would be like having someone paying for the PLants Vs Zombies minigame in Cataclysm, it adds no bonus or benefit to the game at all, only cosmetic and non stat items

Good call.

[Malthurius]

I have no problems purchasing content if I feel that the content included in the box is sufficient and no fees are forced upon me.

This way I can decide for myself if content is worth my money rather than spending a flat sum every month just for right of admission. Even then, they haven't confirmed the selling of content and even if they do they will still release free content patches to keep people around.

Of course the purchasable content does have potential to split the community, unless the content allows guests, which is a possibility, or if the content is simply single player (like the personal story). In fact, I bet most of the purchasable content will be extras in the personal story, which are cosmetic and not really competitive content anyway.

[Lothaeryn]

So basically, your don't care about PvE, it doesn't affect you, therefore the claim that it splits PvE community... is false?

You really do not see the problem in there?

So you are going to complain about something that has no relevance to multiplayer action? That is rather shallow of you.

This game is an MMO, it is designed with multiplayer interactivity in mind, Single-player does not account nor affect multiplayer whatsoever, if you decide to buy something related to singleplayer, that is YOUR PREFERENCE, it does not divide you amongst your freinds, it does not make you superior or inferior to them, it is just your preference on how much you want to spend on the game.

I love the Warcraft series, i played WoW nonstop almost. Does that mean I went out and bought the books for lore? No, I didnt. Sure, I love the lore to death, but I felt the books did not have enough value for my money, and instead I learned about what happened in those books from people who did buy and read them.

Its complete preference, it gives nothing and takes nothing from the game at all.

[rhandric]

So you are going to complain about something that has no relevance to multiplayer action? That is rather shallow of you.

This game is an MMO, it is designed with multiplayer interactivity in mind, Single-player does not account nor affect multiplayer whatsoever, if you decide to buy something related to singleplayer, that is YOUR PREFERENCE, it does not divide you amongst your freinds, it does not make you superior or inferior to them, it is just your preference on how much you want to spend on the game.

I love the Warcraft series, i played WoW nonstop almost. Does that mean I went out and bought the books for lore? No, I didnt. Sure, I love the lore to death, but I felt the books did not have enough value for my money, and instead I learned about what happened in those books from people who did buy and read them.

Its complete preference, it gives nothing and takes nothing from the game at all.

Where's the +1 button?

[Lucky_]

Its complete preference, it gives nothing and takes nothing from the game at all.

I guess it's just me then. I really loved lore, and I found that story of Gwen was one of the best sub-plots in the game. I ended up getting an old friend's account to play through that mission (because her story is the part of bonus pack).

Funnily, so many of us kept Gwen's (utterly useless) stuff all the way from pre-searing, over prophecies, factions and nightfall, just to get the extra text from Gwen in EotN. So at least I know I'm not alone in this. But perhaps in this particular case, I am indeed in a small minority (judging by so many responses).

Admittedly I didn't realize that this was solo content. I was told that "you should just solo it" so I did. Even so, I still found not having access to it on my own account extremely annoying.

[Primal Zed]

For the record: I would not have a problem with the itemized sale of group content. As far as I'm concerned, if a person wants to play certain parts of the game, they can pay for it.

My approach would be:

For-sale content packs containing one or two new dungeons released at short intervals (2-3 months) (not sure on cost, thinking $10-$20?)

Larger expansions upping the level cap, introducing a few new zones and many new dungeons released at longer intervals (~1 year) ($60)

Whenever an expansion is released, all prior content packs and expansions leading up to the new expansion are made available to current players for free.

New players will only ever have to pay $60 to get everything up to and including the latest expansion. (Possibly some leeway if a new player joins scant months before an expansion.)

Of course, I'm not a business guru, and I can't provide anything to support my belief that this sort of system will maximize player retention, new player acquisition, and income per player.

---------- Post added 2012-01-21 at 03:50 PM ----------

I guess it's just me then. I really loved lore, and I found that story of Gwen was one of the best sub-plots in the game. I ended up getting an old friend's account to play through that mission (because her story is the part of bonus pack).

Funnily, so many of us kept Gwen's (utterly useless) stuff all the way from pre-searing, over prophecies, factions and nightfall, just to get the extra text from Gwen in EotN. So at least I know I'm not alone in this. But perhaps in this particular case, I am indeed in a small minority (judging by so many responses).

Admittedly I didn't realize that this was solo content. I was told that "you should just solo it" so I did. Even so, I still found not having access to it on my own account extremely annoying.

Keeping in mind that we're talking about single-player PvE content, not group content.

Since you brought up the angle of PvE content as an avenue to see/experience more lore, let's explore that. Say there's a series of books or movies that you really like. The creators release a new installment. Would you really feel that a person would be justified in complaining that the new installment should be made available to everyone who has all previous installments for free, rather than having to pay for it?

[rhandric]

I guess it's just me then. I really loved lore, and I found that story of Gwen was one of the best sub-plots in the game. I ended up getting an old friend's account to play through that mission (because her story is the part of bonus pack).

Funnily, so many of us kept Gwen's (utterly useless) stuff all the way from pre-searing, over prophecies, factions and nightfall, just to get the extra text from Gwen in EotN. So at least I know I'm not alone in this. But perhaps in this particular case, I am indeed in a small minority (judging by so many responses).

Admittedly I didn't realize that this was solo content. I was told that "you should just solo it" so I did. Even so, I still found not having access to it on my own account extremely annoying.

I too kept all of Gwen's stuff from pre-searing, and picked up the BMP when it was in fact "free" (with the purchase of shop item). But as I mentioned, and as Lothaeryn described it, since it's single player, it's all about the lore, and more akin to reading a book for fun than separating the community. Since it was solo content, I saw no problem with it (eventually) being in the shop since it becomes a choice during time you're solo, rather than a requirement to play with friends.

[Lothaeryn]

I guess it's just me then. I really loved lore, and I found that story of Gwen was one of the best sub-plots in the game. I ended up getting an old friend's account to play through that mission (because her story is the part of bonus pack).

Funnily, so many of us kept Gwen's (utterly useless) stuff all the way from pre-searing, over prophecies, factions and nightfall, just to get the extra text from Gwen in EotN. So at least I know I'm not alone in this. But perhaps in this particular case, I am indeed in a small minority (judging by so many responses).

Admittedly I didn't realize that this was solo content. I was told that "you should just solo it" so I did. Even so, I still found not having access to it on my own account extremely annoying.

trust me, you are not alone on that one, i am a complete sucker for nostalgia items, I collected so many items from quests in WoW that I had (still have if i went back) NO ROOM at all in my banks, and I have full 24 slot bags, i had only 6 slots available at any time, and I just Love keeping items that have some seldom meaning to them.

But I also understand that it is ultimately up to the developers how they wish to release memorable content, and if its just a single player experience, its up to me if i want to purchase it or not.

[Lucky_]

@Primal Zed: Arenanet's previous "official" goal for content boxes was 2 boxes per calendar year, i.e. roughtly one every six months. They made it between Factions and Nightfall (6 months), and missed it with EotN (which took 10 months after NF).

Considering that they were profitable even with those numbers (and the fact that EotN sold for less then first three campaigns), they hopefully should be able to make it even with ~1/year big expansion that will cost about as much as a new box, especially if they start selling cosmetic stuff from the start.


Another thing to note is that, as I posted in another thread already, arenanet likely doesn't want "retention". For them, the best customer is one that buys the box, blows through the content and leaves until the next box is out. This saves them on server costs. Players that play all the time generate less income. As I noted before, it's likely that one of the main reasons for GW1's lack of PvE end game content as well as lack of means to easily rise in "ranks" from newbie to experienced player, i.e. community building tools was because arenanet didn't want them to exist. It was probably also one of the reasons why neither guild wars game has official forums which also foster such community building (for example, WoW's "looking for guild" and "realm" forums).

P.S. Above text contains a boatload of conjectures and extrapolation based on known figures, GW1 numbers are unlikely to extrapolate well to GW2 in terms of development costs, and many other caveats are present.

[Sengel]

The ONLY dungeon pack in the shop is the Bonus Mission Pack, which was originally free for a limited time (if you bought $X amount from the in-game store, which IIRC at the time was only character slots and pvp unlock packs). For ~6 months after that it was unable to be obtained, and there was an outcry of people who missed the opportunity and wanted it, thus it got added to the store. Stop spreading information that while true to the detail obscures the reality.

The BMP was put in the store right after nightfall launched (only expansion I didn't get the box for) so if you bought nightfall (or maybe it was EOTN) through the store, you got it for free.

[Lucky_]

The BMP was put in the store right after nightfall launched (only expansion I didn't get the box for) so if you bought nightfall (or maybe it was EOTN) through the store, you got it for free.

It was indeed EotN, because, well, Gwen.

I bought CE boxes. No "free" stuff for me (though I didn't get EotN, I left the game before it came out originally). Funnily the CE boxes of all campaigns but the first one, which I bought before the store was opened, cost me about as much as "digital purchase" of normal versions in the store back then.

[Primal Zed]

Another thing to note is that, as I posted in another thread already, arenanet likely doesn't want "retention". For them, the best customer is one that buys the box, blows through the content and leaves until the next box is out. This saves them on server costs.

Getting players to come back for the next content update can still be called retention.

Also, ArenaNet still aims to get money from the perpetual player through other types of microtransactions - the aesthetic stuff or character slots.

ArenaNet themselves have stated that server costs are not a problem (when they were questioned about why they think they can get by without a subscription, which ostensibly pays for server upkeep and bandwidth).

I don't buy that they would prefer players that don't continuously play the game between content updates.

[Lucky_]

Getting players to come back for the next content update can still be called retention.

Also, ArenaNet still aims to get money from the perpetual player through other types of microtransactions - the aesthetic stuff or character slots.

ArenaNet themselves have stated that server costs are not a problem (when they were questioned about why they think they can get by without a subscription, which ostensibly pays for server upkeep and bandwidth).

I don't buy that they would prefer players that don't continuously play the game between content updates.

You misunderstand. I was referring specifically to people who play continuously. While server costs are "not a problem", they will still go lower if a large portion of people plays through the content and leaves until the next patch. They even monetized these people in GW1 by giving them PvP skill unlocks for additional fee, making the game less grindy.

They obviously want the game to do well, and that requires box sales. But it doesn't require traditional MMO retention of "player must keep playing all the time and pay monthly fees". I.e. their business model is different enough to prefer different methods of retention.

[Primal Zed]

You misunderstand. I was referring specifically to people who play continuously. While server costs are "not a problem", they will still go lower if a large portion of people plays through the content and leaves until the next patch. They even monetized these people in GW1 by giving them PvP skill unlocks for additional fee, making the game less grindy.

They obviously want the game to do well, and that requires box sales. But it doesn't require traditional MMO retention of "player must keep playing all the time and pay monthly fees". I.e. their business model is different enough to prefer different methods of retention.

Yes, I know what you were referring to. That's why I pointed out that's not the only interpretation of 'player retention', especially since I'm the one that brought up the term.

You're still ignoring that ArenaNet will be getting money from players through microtransactions, not just through selling expansions.

Also, if they start making content that can be burned through very quickly before they feel like there's nothing to do in the game, people will lose interest during the intervals or decide that the cost isn't worth it.

ArenaNet would be sacrificing a lot and risking even more just to try to save a pittance on server and bandwidth costs.

They may not be basing their business model around grinds and treadmills, but that doesn't mean they're going for the opposite extreme.