Blizzard will let 25 mans die?

[Donthealme]

Where do you get these numbers from? Given that wow subscriptions been around 10-11 millon mark you are saying that 10% of all players were actively raiding 25 man?

I think this highlights the top reason why Blizzard needs to undone what was done(by undo I mean 1 predominant raid size)this was the largest change in cataclysm, so by proxy it can be reasoned this is largest reason they lost subscribers....honestly at this point I dont care, make it 10 make it 25(although for me if they made it 10 I would at that point stop playing), make one raid size predominant...the community has been skewered because of this

[Deleted]

Give 5 mans raids in a 5/10 model with "equal everything" and as few few bother to run 25s today, few would also bother to run 10s with a system like that tomorrow. Would that mean that 10 are bad all of the sudden? Or maybe that we should let em dye and have 5 mans only?

5 man isn't a raid its a dungeon group. A raid requires tank swaps and healing assignments and no I would prefer to raid to doing dungeons.

The subs are going down hand in hand with the 25s going down. What happened was wrong, and now it can't be undone i am afraid.

The subs were going down in T11 already when people considered 10 man overtuned, and those who quit 25 mainly quit the game. I doubt very much the wotlk model would increase the numbers.

Not only the leaders went away from doing 25 but the raiders as well. Those for different reasons ofc.
Some because they prefer 10 obviously but others because they saw that with 10s:
1) They can get rid of the "bads" easier
2) They saw that they can have faster progress
3) They saw that through no 1 and no 2 they can have faster and bigger access to rewards.
4) They saw that as they snap their fingures, a "raid"is being formed.

Except the rewards, (25 man still has better access to loot) you talk like these are bad things. It's decidely a more satisfactory experience not to have bring a long 5-6 slackers because you have to fill the 25 mans. and I'm quite happy when I'm on firstname basis with my raiders and they are no more then a text message away.

We care for the "poor" leaders, so we make their "work" EVEN harder till they also give up and join us all in the happy 10 man world!!!

Or we can realize that 25 man raiding are just raid factories with a workmanslike organization set up to process the best gear in the game, the reason 99% of all people raid. I suppose its sad that people who desire this format will struggle to form them, but really in the long run I believe it leads to healthier gaming.

[Talen]

Give 5 mans raids in a 5/10 model with "equal everything" and as few few bother to run 25s today, few would also bother to run 10s with a system like that tomorrow.

You'd probably be surprised. Thing is, the difference between organising a 5 man party and a 10man raid group isn't as great as the difference between 10s and 25s. Assuming equal diffciulty, even without the raid based mechanics of a true raid, 5s wouldn't be likely to hold a commanding lead.

Would that mean that 10 are bad all of the sudden? Or maybe that we should let em dye and have 5 mans only?

Given this argument would eliminate various mechanics 5 mans would find impossible to handle, there will always be a place and role for a multi party encounter such as 10s.

The subs are going down hand in hand with the 25s going down.

Yes...except the formers going down mainly due to a poor end game rather than the raid format.

What happened was wrong, and now it can't be undone i am afraid.

What happened was good and shouldn't be undone...unless you think 25s have some special place in the game.

Not only the leaders went away from doing 25 but the raiders as well. Those for different reasons ofc.
Some because they prefer 10 obviously but others because they saw that with 10s:
1) They can get rid of the "bads" easier
2) They saw that they can have faster progress
3) They saw that through no 1 and no 2 they can have faster and bigger access to rewards.
4) They saw that as they snap their fingures, a "raid"is being formed.

2 and 3 are the same. 2 is due to 1. And these are all good things.

The fact that raiders are walking away from 25s for reasons that in many occasions have nothing to do with them actually preferring 10 over 25 but because it is comfier and more rewarding

Comfier implies they ***DO*** actually prefer it. More rewarding is misleading. It has the same rewards and the same effort, within a reasonable degree of tolerance.

EJL

[Rexxr]

Blizzard has said they would want to switch to 15 man but that would require a lot of rework. It simply might just might undoable.

[Donthealme]

@Talen- End game has suffered because of the extra resources they have to put into 10 and 25 man raids and balancing, the Wotlk model was make 25 man, make it work, now nerf the piss out of it for 10 man.

[Talen]

@Talen- End game has suffered because of the extra resources they have to put into 10 and 25 man raids and balancing.

End game suffered due to the work they put into revamping the world. It left little time, resources or opportunity to put in anything other than raids.

As for the rest, the raids of all types use the same graphics, settings, music, story, etc with only a few mechanics between difficulty levels, and some changed numbers.

EJL

[Ryme]

End game suffered due to the work they put into revamping the world. It left little time, resources or opportunity to put in anything other than raids.

This always bugs me. I understand that it could harm the opening tier, but after that, the majority of developer time on the old content has stopped. So why was the opening tier for Cataclysm the best one yet?*

*At least in community polls.

[Anjerith]

This always bugs me. I understand that it could harm the opening tier, but after that, the majority of developer time on the old content has stopped. So why was the opening tier for Cataclysm the best one yet?*

*At least in community polls.

Because the opening tier was largely panned by players as being too hard. The vocal minority liked it, the vast majority stopped playing. Thus more compact raids were created.

Also be aware that they started expanding outside of raid content after the first tier.

The Vocal Minority disliked them, the vast majority enjoyed them.

No matter how much we bitch, Blizzard actually has real figures on who does what and how much. They will always listen to silent numbers over constant complaints.


Plus, let's be honest, the Vocal Minority has been trolling Blizzard pretty hard since Dragon Soul came out.

[Baelrah82]

40 mans was too large, 25 mans are gonna stay. Blizz always used 2 raid sizes, ever since Zul'gurub came out, so it's not like they want 25 m to die. They even created a new form of 25m with LFR, so yea.

[Deleted]

are you seriously claiming that AFTER they redigned old azeroth they where so beat up that they only managed to make a 7 boss raid called firelands after release and it lingered on to dragon soul an 8 boss raid. Are you serious...

[Deleted]

While LFR is here people can stop worrying: unless there are ZERO 25man guilds left, they will never stop balancing for that format. So basically, it's never going to get dropped. The ONLY thing that affects your chance at 25man raiding is whether players actually want to play this format. It's up to the players really, and honestly if they really need MORE encouragement they shouldn't be raiding 25man... Liking the format should be reward enough...

[Benea]

Talen, do you work for Blizzard? You seem to be stating your opinions as definitive answers for Blizzard.

One example:

Many people just stop raiding / quit cause they don't have an option to run 25s on their serer anymore. If you don't see this as a problem I don't know what to say.
I'd see it as an issue if it were true. Albeit, a relatively minor one, especially from Blizzards point of view.

At this point I'm almost convinced you're just arguing just for the sake of arguing and just to stir the pot.

[Talen]

Talen, do you work for Blizzard? You seem to be stating your opinions as definitive answers for Blizzard.

One example:


At this point I'm almost convinced you're just arguing just for the sake of arguing and just to stir the pot.

Its fairly easy to read the various updates on what Blizzard is saying about 25s.
They have no current plans to incentivise them, for example. In this partilcular case, if Blizzard wasn't happy with the way things are, they'd be changing things. They aren't therefore they don't see it as a major problem. What would be a major problem would be if, instead of transferring to 10s, those players left.

And while the game has lost 2m subs, I suspect very, very few of those lost subs can be attributed solely to an inability to raid 25s combined with an absolute hatrde of the 10 man format. Likewise, it is very easy for me to state Blizzards current policy when they have described it publically. It is easy to put forward plans that they have discussed. And, at the end of the day, the issue here doesn't bother me. IF 25s were to fail, I'd do 10s. I suspect most people here...even the 25s...would do likewise.

The main issue here, in this thread, is that people have a problem with the game. Thats fine...but they also have what appears to be an unreasonable expectation that this needs to be fixed. In truth, it doesn't. They don't have to like Blizzards policies wrt to the game and raiding, but they do have to live with them. For all their issues with the system, their complaint simplifies down to "I don't like this system because it means I can't play". Thats not good for the game, but the central issue here is that the reason there aren't people doing 25s is because they are doing 10s. Freely, with no coercion from Blizzard, they are playing 10s. And while there is an inherent barrier to entry to 25s due to organisation issues, that ultimately is not Blizzards concern.

What would be a major problem woul be if they could somehow demonstrate that the current set of policies, while beneficial in manyways, was ultimately hramful to the game world. Do they destroy the sense of community? Do they encourage people to leave the game? Are 25s so important to so many people that the raid model needs to be changed. Thats an argument they can make; unfortunately its not one they can come close to proving as Blizzard, not they, holds the figures necessary.

EJL

[pinguo]

25man is the reason I play wow, 10mans just seem easy and shit imo. 25man needs more teamwork and I like many people working together, not just a mere 10

[DreamCast]

25man is the reason I play wow, 10mans just seem easy and shit imo. 25man needs more teamwork and I like many people working together, not just a mere 10

As much as I would love to see more incentive for 25 man raiding I think MoP will be the last xpac to have them, blizzard has no intention of keeping it if Guild masters themselves don't want to put the extra effort in for no reward.

The number of 25-man raiding guilds seems to be declining. Are there going to be any plans to encourage them? Or do you plan to remove 25-man raids?
A: The number of 25-man raiding guilds is probably going to keep decreasing, but we will still continue to provide 25-man raids unless one day no one does 25-man raids anymore. We do not have direct plans to encourage players to choose 25-man. We hope to keep 10-man and 25-man raids close enough so players can choose the type that they find interesting. (Provided you have enough people to run 10-man or 25-man raids)

[pinguo]

As much as I would love to see more incentive for 25 man raiding I think MoP will be the last xpac to have them, blizzard has no intention of keeping it if Guild masters themselves don't want to put the extra effort in for no reward.

Well, that will probably be when I leave wow if it happens after mist. We all gotta quit someday. In the mean time, I'm gonna enjoy 25man as much as I can in MOP.

[Deleted]

As much as I would love to see more incentive for 25 man raiding I think MoP will be the last xpac to have them, blizzard has no intention of keeping it if Guild masters themselves don't want to put the extra effort in for no reward.

yeah but the only thing why people would do them again is better loot and that shouldn´t be the motivation. the ones who enjoy 25man raiding still do it and the ones who don´t were obvious loot whores who haven´t played 25man because it´s fun but because of the loot.
i myself don´t need a carrot on a stick to enjoy something

[DreamCast]

yeah but the only thing why people would do them again is better loot and that shouldn´t be the motivation. the ones who enjoy 25man raiding still do it and the ones who don´t were obvious loot whores who haven´t played 25man because it´s fun but because of the loot.
i myself don´t need a carrot on a stick to enjoy something

Hey Mofi,

I take it u just a raider like myself and don't run guilds, for me it doesn't require anything extra whether I turn up to raid 10 or 25s but after a few chats with my GM and officers in vent they said running a 25 man raiding guild wasn't worth the extra time and effort anymore even though they prefer it.

[Asmekiel]

yeah but the only thing why people would do them again is better loot and that shouldn´t be the motivation. the ones who enjoy 25man raiding still do it and the ones who don´t were obvious loot whores who haven´t played 25man because it´s fun but because of the loot.
i myself don´t need a carrot on a stick to enjoy something

Hm, good luck doing 25s with 10 people.

I want to go back to 25s. People saying "go do that then" are ignorant. If there are only 10-15 people on your realm that want to run 25s, good luck making a stable roster.

[Deleted]

Also when wanting to form 25 man guild its getting icreasingly harder because finding good enough players to fill 25 man roster is almost mission impossible since I want my players to be the best they can be,even if guild raids 2-3 days I still want world first kind of people in my guild because its simply not fun to raid with people that cant play the best they possibly could.So ye,playerbase to recruit from is horrible in this game and thats why 25 mans are also in decline.Who the hell would wanna keep group of 25 shit players around,all guilds should strive for perfection in terms of execution of bossfights and doing their best.