[MoP][Ret][PvE] Disappointed by talent tier 3

[Deleted]

I think some of you are being a little too critical of the OP. If he doesn't feel like using most of his utility, that's his prerogative. If he isn't doing Heroic Mode raid content or PvP, it's not like it makes much of a difference anyway, since utility becomes of marginal use pretty much anywhere else. For Normal modes and LFR content, just doing good old fashioned dps will get the job done almost every time.

Yes these talents are for people who are in progression raids and PvP. The fact that the OP said in a later post 'I don't want to have to make up for the badness of healers' screams out that he hasn't seen a progression raid when healers are undergeared/pushing it for the content. Its not being bad, its the numbers and off heals/ survivability talents can make get you from 5-6% wipes to downing the boss .

[Deleted]

I have to agree with the others, if it is DPS and DPS only that is your only concern for your character then you have four pure DPS classes to choose from whose talents are free from the influence of having to cater to other roles. If you would rather wipe than use an off-heal to push through tight numbers in a challenge mode dungeon/heroic dungeon perhaps spamming Arcane Blast in LFR would be more your thing. I played a rogue for years and when I re-rolled to my priest I loved the fact a well timed heal/dispel from my Shadow spec could make a difference in my groups success or failure. Hybrids aren't for everyone, but thts fine because the game has classes for those people who just want to pew-pew.

[Endus]

Literally every hybrid has a tier like this that promotes healing. Pures don't, because they don't heal, but they don't get extra DPS talents to make up for that, they just get a different kind of utility instead other than healing, just as situational.

If anything, the overall design in MoP will reduce the impact on hybrid DPS, by giving them strong healing CDs that they can use to help healers at only the cost of a GCD, rather than repeated casts or the like as they've had to do from Vanilla through Cata. If you weren't helping out healing until now, you'll probably avoid doing so in MoP too, but that's not really a hallmark of good gameplay, either. Meter-whoring at the expense of your raid is not a good thing.

[Deleted]

I was looking forward to that tier. What do you know? Wasn't expecting any people to dislike it, honestly.

Sacred Shield is off the freaking GCD, you can toss it out in raids, no dps cost. If you're 2 paladins in a 10man roster you can have SS on both tanks creating an absorb and in addition increasing the crit chance for the healers WoG by 30% !!!! How can anyone not see that?

What has this game become litterally, it's all about the best parses, topping the meters and shit. Don't people enjoy saving the raid throwing out those Lay on Hands? Helping the healers by throwing out SS? Saving that mage from adds by casting Hand of Protection?

[Landin55]

I want my Ret to heal more dammit

[Deleted]

i'm not interested in progression content or heroic raids. I'm likely to do nothing but LFR and LFD, and the occasional 10 man pug if I somehow manage to reach the often retarded demands the leader states. i'm also not interested in helping the healers. i can see why that could be needed on progression content though.

it's funny that people mention other hybrids, because druids are actually the only other hybrids with a healing spec that also have to suffer from this nonsense. their second tier has only on-use talents, and their final tier basically requires shapeshifting and acting outside their ordinary role. Shamans have a 5th tier that revolves around healing, but they can choose a talent that can turn 40% of their DPS into a smart heal. and priests can choose something that activates automatically in their healing oriented tier 4. but paladins? we need to choose between 3 talents that are all oriented towards offhealing, one of which consumes holy power, another which costs over a third of our mana, and another which needs constant refreshing every 30 seconds. at least druids can also get utility with their tree.

[Talen]

Now, I'd like to apologise in advance for sounding bitter and cynical, but it's just the way I feel about the 3rd talent tier. Because, you see, Blizzard again tries to turn a DPS spec into a offhealer

There is nothign wrong with that design goal...so long as it is baalnced and the primary DPS role doesn't suffer for it.

3rd tier, wha? we got the choice between a stacking proc to improve flash of light, a finisher HoT that consumes holy power, or sacred shield. please explain to me why I am FORCED to choose a healing talent, as a DPS?

Because healing is one of the roles Paladin can take. T3 is the healing tier and ***BOTH*** SS and SH will be viable and helpful for personal suvivability.


You are also wrong in stating other hybrids don't have this effect.

EJL

[Malthanis]

i'm not interested in progression content or heroic raids. I'm likely to do nothing but LFR and LFD, and the occasional 10 man pug if I somehow manage to reach the often retarded demands the leader states. i'm also not interested in helping the healers. i can see why that could be needed on progression content though.

it's funny that people mention other hybrids, because druids are actually the only other hybrids with a healing spec that also have to suffer from this nonsense. their second tier has only on-use talents, and their final tier basically requires shapeshifting and acting outside their ordinary role. Shamans have a 5th tier that revolves around healing, but they can choose a talent that can turn 40% of their DPS into a smart heal. and priests can choose something that activates automatically in their healing oriented tier 4. but paladins? we need to choose between 3 talents that are all oriented towards offhealing, one of which consumes holy power, another which costs over a third of our mana, and another which needs constant refreshing every 30 seconds. at least druids can also get utility with their tree.

So your issue is that we're required to actually click a button here? To make a choice on who to use it on? Your complaint isn't really clear here.

Sure, Flash of Light costs a large chunk of mana. But our mana regenerates much faster with the new class design.

Eternal Flame is probably the worst choice for Ret in this tier, because it brings up the same issue that Word of Glory had. It uses Holy Power, and that could've been used for DPS instead.

The only downside I can see to Sacred Shield is that it can be dispelled. But since we're talking about PvE here, I don't see that coming up often. Your issue is that you have to refresh it every 30 seconds? You already do the same for Inquisition. If what another poster said is to be believed, the spell is also off the GCD. At that point, you can just macro it to something and it'll become part of your own passive defense.

So what, exactly, is your complaint? All I get out of your posts is that you don't want to use the tools given to your chosen class.

[Endus]

it's funny that people mention other hybrids, because druids are actually the only other hybrids with a healing spec that also have to suffer from this nonsense. their second tier has only on-use talents, and their final tier basically requires shapeshifting and acting outside their ordinary role. Shamans have a 5th tier that revolves around healing, but they can choose a talent that can turn 40% of their DPS into a smart heal. and priests can choose something that activates automatically in their healing oriented tier 4. but paladins? we need to choose between 3 talents that are all oriented towards offhealing, one of which consumes holy power, another which costs over a third of our mana, and another which needs constant refreshing every 30 seconds. at least druids can also get utility with their tree.

So every other hybrid has a similar tier, is what you're saying.

Yes, your offhealing is slightly different from other classes, because you're a Paladin, not a Druid or Shaman or Priest or Monk.


And Paladins do get utility with their tree; Tier 1 is a mobility tier, and Tier 2 is a CC tier. Not to mention off-healing is itself utility.

[Reith]

Sacred Shield is off the freaking GCD

No, it isn't. That is completely false. Please do not spread misinformation. Thank you.

OT: There's plenty of other talents to be annoyed about: Speed of Light, Hand of Purity, Divine Purpose, Holy Prism, Light's Hammer.

[Deleted]

So every other hybrid has a similar tier, is what you're saying.

Yes, your offhealing is slightly different from other classes, because you're a Paladin, not a Druid or Shaman or Priest or Monk.


And Paladins do get utility with their tree; Tier 1 is a mobility tier, and Tier 2 is a CC tier. Not to mention off-healing is itself utility.

what I meant with "utility with their tier (not tree)", was that they could also choose for an instant cyclone or rebirth in their healing designated tier (tier 2). they also have free heals from that spell, while ret need to spend 36% mana.

[dumyguy]

but which most PvP paladins take, for the 10 second CD reduction, but not to use it on others.

idk about you guys, but I stopped reading after this

running all dps teams is my favourtist thing evar, 140k wogs on allies yespls
and rarely in pve if your paying attention you can save the tank, its like a lay on hands with a 10 second cooldown

you dont HAVE to use it, but it's there, like most of the talents in mop atm

[MrHappy]

ill explain it to you this way. You are not foced to choose. You can skip t3 entirely. They are utility and if u as a dps dont care about survivability in pve raidboss and think that heals is the only reason you should be alive then these talents are not for you. if you feel that mitigation of damage in pve is a bad thing for pve...these talents are not for you. In face if you want to simply faceroll bosses the enitre talent system can be ignored. But if one day you decided that maybe if i heal myself or take that tiny bit less damage during an aor damage than perhaps we wont have 1% wipes =)

[Handlebardoc]

The way I read this was "I want to be as bad as I want to be, I don't want blizzard to force me to take something useful that I will not use."

Many, many people PvP (where these talents will be used a LOT) and a lot of people raid (not even just heroic raiding). And for those that do the aforementioned, these are useful. Now, its somewhat obvious for a raiding retadin, Sacred Shield will be the way to go, but it can depend on the encounter. For PvP, they each have their pro's and cons.

What I think you don't understand, sir, is that blizzard does not need to cater to some casual who doesn't really care about being that good. All of these talents are for survivability, and thus useful to any player who seeks to play the game well.

[Eon Drache]

you might be willing, but that doesn't mean everyone is willing. If I need to use one of these, things are going down the shitter anyway, and nothing that I can do will be able to stop that. so I might as well continue DPS'ing. i rarely use my utility, and i don't want anyone to expect me to do so. i'm even going to completely overhaul my bars in 5.0, removing anything that isn't DPS or personal survival related. If I wanted to use my utility, i would have rolled a healer.

---------- Post added 2012-04-23 at 05:41 PM ----------



I stand by my decision. I joined as DPS, which means I shouldn't compensate for the badness of the healers, either by throwing out heals, or using my utility. If they can't handle it without my help, they shouldn't be doing the content in the first place.

I'd hate to have you in my heroic raid group. Using utility or not decides the bads from the good. You sir, would be a bad.

[Deleted]

the problem is more that i will forget to use it. i'm already almost a mediocre player, who struggles with even such simple automated tasks as keeping SnD up on his mut rogue (i once let it fall off on zon'ozz), or SW:P on his shadowpriest (both get refreshed by a main rotational move). I can react to procs decently well (like AoW or DP), but I suck at monitoring timers and cooldowns.

[Endus]

what I meant with "utility with their tier (not tree)", was that they could also choose for an instant cyclone or rebirth in their healing designated tier (tier 2). they also have free heals from that spell, while ret need to spend 36% mana.

The closest one to Nature's Swiftness is Selfless Healer. It's more restrictive, but in exchange you get to use it as often as once every ~15 seconds or so (two Judgement CDs + the GCD from the spell) as opposed to once a minute, and you get +100% healing, not +50%. More restrictive but more powerful isn't a bad tradeoff, at all.

[Valedus]

It's not an off-healing tier, it's a survivability tier. DPS still have a responsibility to minimize their own damage (usually by not standing in bad stuff, interrupting, etc.), but this tier gives us an extra layer to that. Because we also have a healing spec, we have the ability to throw this to other players as well.

We're expected to use the utility of our class, which happens to be healing. I know I'll be perfectly willing to toss out any of these three, whether I'm tanking or DPSing.

This, all the way. DPS =/= tunnel vision the boss 100% of the time. Instant HoT/Instant flash heals/Instant absorbs is not that big of a deal to throw out.
Also, OP, I don't know if I can trust anything you say after you said people don't take Selfless Healer currently because of the extra healing, just the CD reduce.
Considering it is like a 70k crit heal, and my PvP gear is meh (I just started PvPing again), no idea what you are talking about.

[Tobley]

As dps, your job is to make the fight end, preferably quicker.
However, if the tank dies and a cascade failure occurs, your dps is meaningless. It is your job as a team player to use your abilities to aid the group.

Ret paladins have some of the most powerful cooldowns to aid the group.
Hand of Sacrifice, Hand of Protection, Hand of Freedom, Hand of Salvation, Lay on Hands, even Divine Protection indirectly aids the group.

Your job as a dps goes far beyond damage per second.

[Valedus]

As dps, your job is to make the fight end, preferably quicker.
However, if the tank dies and a cascade failure occurs, your dps is meaningless. It is your job as a team player to use your abilities to aid the group.

Ret paladins have some of the most powerful cooldowns to aid the group.
Hand of Sacrifice, Hand of Protection, Hand of Freedom, Hand of Salvation, Lay on Hands, even Divine Protection indirectly aids the group.

Your job as a dps goes far beyond damage per second.

Exactly, as a raid leader, a good hybrid that can save someones ass with a heal or help lighten the load = awesome for progression.
Again, none of oyu people who are skeptical HAVE to cast them, but then don't be surprised if your raid leader/healers are upset that you aren't playing top notch.