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  1. #121
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Choptimus View Post
    Not impressed, sorry dude. Top world hunters think the class looks very promising in panda, you don't. Wonder who has a better idea of balance.
    I couldn't stop laughing. Who has a say in how the Hunter class is going to be in Mists of Pandaria? The few top world hunters or the massive hunter community who WILL eventually whine hard about something if they aren't satisfied with it - like any class community?

    Expertise just doesn't make sense for hunter's.
    As I pointed out before, giving hunter's expertise and claiming that hunter's needs expertise with bows/guns/xbows just makes it into a weapon skill and weapon skills were removed for a reason.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aertea View Post
    I agree that this whole dodge mechanic needs attention, but doesn't steady shot regenerate focus on cast not on hit?

    ---------- Post added 2012-04-24 at 08:48 AM ----------



    You don't understand the change. Spell hit still exists. Expertise gives BOTH spell hit AND expertise. This is so classes like enhancement shamans can reach both the melee and spell hit cap without requiring more rating than everyone else.
    Yes, as does Cobra Shot.
    And i understand the change, like i said not a big deal. Its like you said, you generate focus from casting not if it hits.
    So again, this isnt going to affect anything. Mages,Warlocks,Elem Shams,Spriest, and Hunters will just need to get expertise, like every other melee class.
    Seems the complaint is more about adding another secondary stat.

    The real question is....Will they lower the HIT requirement for casters from 17% to make room for Expertise, said classes mentioned(except Hunters)?
    I havent rolled a caster in Beta, so dont know how it works.
    Spell Hit wont exist, its just going to be Hit. So rogues,enh shams, etc., wont need to hit 17% in Spell Hit. Since the stat wont be on the Character Info/Stats tab.

    Note: This doesnt reflect yet in Beta.

  3. #123
    Very bad idea, i don't see why they keep messing with their working models and play types.

    Sadly they will not listen and will screw up hunters for years to come, as usual.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by hapylol View Post
    You have it backwards, melee get 26 expertise to be parry capped. You don't attempt to reach the dodge cap with expertise. This is why tanks get EXP capped so they don't parry the boss and the reason melee attack from behind.
    Srsly what game are you playing?
    26 is the dodge cap, so boss dont dodge you, coz they dodge even from behind.
    Parry is front ONLY for bosses and afaik cap is around 57exp.
    And no tank cap even the dodge one.
    http://imageshack.us/f/442/30583442.png/
    Last edited by zugzug; 2012-04-24 at 02:31 PM.

  5. #125
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by hapylol View Post
    You have it backwards, melee get 26 expertise to be parry capped. You don't attempt to reach the dodge cap with expertise. This is why tanks get EXP capped so they don't parry the boss and the reason melee attack from behind.
    You have it backwards.
    Bosses can Dodge from behind, they cannot parry from behind.
    Players get expertise capped so that the boss cannot dodge any longer. When you are expertise capped it doesn't matter whether you attack from the front or behind, the boss will not dodge your attacks. He will only parry them if you attack from the front.

    Melee do not get parry capped, they do not need too (as they attack from behind) and the expertise for parry is much higher.
    Tanks don't bother with expertise capping at all..

    Not sure what the point of your post was.

    ---------- Post added 2012-04-24 at 03:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Verrilo View Post
    I don't mind the added RNG of being dodged. Once we are fully hit capped and expertise capped it won't be noticed as much as it is right now not being capped. What bother me the most about this change is that when an attack gets dodged, we loose out not only on the dmg from that shot, but also the focus. I would like to see blizzard add into the game resource refund system, even if it's just 80% of the shot's cost, when a shot is dodged so we don't completely miss out on the dmg potential of that shot and have other options like casting an arcane shot to make up for the loss of that critical explosive shot or cobra shot missing.
    I am pretty sure that Blizzard will implement something like this for the hunter classes, like they have for other melee.
    Just because it isn't in the beta yet doesn't mean there were not plans for this to happen before the Beta went live.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Aertea View Post
    I agree that this whole dodge mechanic needs attention, but doesn't steady shot regenerate focus on cast not on hit?
    This is in fact how steady/cobra work, meaning all those arguments about being "focus starved" thanks to a chain of dodged steadies or cobras are invalid.

    Quote Originally Posted by bandet View Post
    That happens with EVERY SINGLE RANGED ATTACK IN THE GAME.

    It isn't a hunter thing. So if you are trying to "reason" hunters getting dodged to this completely retarded example, then logically you would have to demand every ranged class to be dodgeable too, otherwise you are bias against hunters.

    Good luck with that.
    Ok, simple question: Do you think that Hunters are going to be at a severe PvP disadvantage because of this change? As I previously stated, I'm aware and accept that there's basically no way to prevent at least some of our attacks from being dodged under the new expertise model. If this change goes live (which I fully expect it will, like it or not), we WILL have to deal with something we never have in PvP before. But how big an effect do you expect this to actually have on us?
    - The Hunter's Creed -
    "This is my pet. There are many others like him, but this one is mine. He is my best friend. He is my life. I must master him as I master my life.
    My pet, without me, is useless. Without my pet, I am useless."

  7. #127
    Solves some awkward gearing issues. Also, back in the real world your DPS is balanced around your available stat budget so in the end this will make zero difference. Shrug.

  8. #128
    I've always thought expertise was an awful stat. Isn't it the same as hit theoretically? If you aren't hit capped, there is something the mob is doing to avoid being hit or you just aren't good enough to aim/follow through well. Likewise, if you are expertise capped but not hit capped, how could you still miss? You aim and follow through well enough to keep the mob from dodging your ability, but not enough to hit it anyway?

    Poor idea.

    Functionally it will make no difference at all since they will provide the ways to cap expertise, and plan on balancing numbers that will make everyone's damage about the same; the problem is that it's just not a very fun idea at all over seeing more strength, agility, crit, etc. on your gear.
    Last edited by Lorien; 2012-04-24 at 02:57 PM.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyph3r View Post
    This is in fact how steady/cobra work, meaning all those arguments about being "focus starved" thanks to a chain of dodged steadies or cobras are invalid.
    you're wrong. go hit the skull level dummies on the beta with a steady/cobra and see if your focus goes up after a dodge. or you can try it against a mage ice block or paladin bubble or alizabal's blade dance. you get focus after the spell is cast but only if it hits. therefore chain steady/cobra dodges would in fact make you focus starved until one lands.
    Last edited by crooklyn; 2012-04-24 at 03:11 PM.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Atlanis View Post
    On beta, I fought a Rogue and missed three Steadys after missing a Chim. It's a good thing there were other people around, or I'd have been a dead man. Being dodgeable is awful. It stings especially bad because we're the only Agility class that can't dodge worth shit.
    Your also the only agility class that can hit it's target from 30+ yards away while having several tools to keep them away from you.

    As for missing 25% of your shots, welcome to the club, the rest of us had the same thing happen when expertise was first introduced but unlike you we didnt have reforging or using offset pieces of another class to compensate, while you can easily start picking up offset enhancement shammy pieces to prepare yourself for the release of mop.

    Though to be honest I have never been a fan of expertise and always thought it should be removed from the game.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Crooklyn View Post
    you're wrong. go hit the skull level dummies on the beta with a steady/cobra and see if your focus goes up after a dodge. or you can try it against a mage ice block or paladin bubble or alizabal's blade dance.
    Is this the case on beta as well? Either way this is a simple and elegant fix (which they've used before for other classes). I fully expect by the time mists goes live, this is how Cobra and Steady will work.

    And yes, expertise has always been a bit of an awkward stat. I suspect it's only still around because they like it as part of the tanking model. Besides, I can already see all the cries about "dumbing down the game" if they outright removed it. People will complain no matter what happens.
    - The Hunter's Creed -
    "This is my pet. There are many others like him, but this one is mine. He is my best friend. He is my life. I must master him as I master my life.
    My pet, without me, is useless. Without my pet, I am useless."

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyph3r View Post
    Is this the case on beta as well? Either way this is a simple and elegant fix (which they've used before for other classes). I fully expect by the time mists goes live, this is how Cobra and Steady will work.
    refer to my late edit: you get focus after the spell is cast but only if it hits. therefore chain steady/cobra dodges would in fact make you focus starved until one lands.

    and yes, this is still the case on the beta: dodged/missed cobras are not giving focus back.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by bandet View Post
    Because axes travel slower than arrows, ergo it is easier to dodge?




    Now, I am not saying the fact that hunters only needed 8% hit while everyone else needed so much more wasn't stupid, but making hunter shots dodgeable is just a completely retarded thing to do.

    Think about it, how does a melee counter dodge? They attack from behind. How does a hunter counter dodge? We.. uh.. well, I am 40 yards away. I guess I just have to hope the enemy backpedals towards me while I kite?

    They just aren't thinking about hunters in PvP, as usual.
    Because you fire arrows from melee range rite?
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille
    I knew it would be useful to be french at some point.
    Quote Originally Posted by xxAkirhaxx
    just get a mac. It's like sleeping with a fat chick to avoid STD's.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by mercutiouk View Post
    Because you fire arrows from melee range rite?

    Not sure what you are talking about.

    Apparently in MoP, we will fire arrows from melee range?

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashe-Arathor View Post
    I couldn't stop laughing. Who has a say in how the Hunter class is going to be in Mists of Pandaria? The few top world hunters or the massive hunter community who WILL eventually whine hard about something if they aren't satisfied with it - like any class community?

    Expertise just doesn't make sense for hunter's.
    As I pointed out before, giving hunter's expertise and claiming that hunter's needs expertise with bows/guns/xbows just makes it into a weapon skill and weapon skills were removed for a reason.
    Hunters are being given expertise so they can put some on mail gear, enhance shamans need it. There's no real reason to NOT have you use 1 more stat that all other physical classes are using so it's used. Would you rather see expertise on gear that's decent or haste/crit/hit/whatever-was-useless-in cata that you don't want?

    At this point your arguing you don't want it because it's change and change is bad. You assume they won't ensure your dps is still balanced around enemies dodging shots. It simplifies mail agi itemisation and does nothing to damage you ergo it's a positive change.

    ---------- Post added 2012-04-24 at 04:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by bandet View Post
    Not sure what you are talking about.

    Apparently in MoP, we will fire arrows from melee range?
    Perhaps read what I was responding to before posting?

    "Because axes travel slower than arrows, ergo it is easier to dodge?"

    Arrows travel a few (10's of) meters generally, axes are swung from about a metre away. Both can be dodged with about the same degree of accuracy i'd think.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille
    I knew it would be useful to be french at some point.
    Quote Originally Posted by xxAkirhaxx
    just get a mac. It's like sleeping with a fat chick to avoid STD's.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by mercutiouk View Post
    Hunters are being given expertise so they can put some on mail gear, enhance shamans need it. There's no real reason to NOT have you use 1 more stat that all other physical classes are using so it's used. Would you rather see expertise on gear that's decent or haste/crit/hit/whatever-was-useless-in cata that you don't want?

    At this point your arguing you don't want it because it's change and change is bad. You assume they won't ensure your dps is still balanced around enemies dodging shots. It simplifies mail agi itemisation and does nothing to damage you ergo it's a positive change.

    ---------- Post added 2012-04-24 at 04:25 PM ----------



    Perhaps read what I was responding to before posting?

    "Because axes travel slower than arrows, ergo it is easier to dodge?"

    Arrows travel a few (10's of) meters generally, axes are swung from about a metre away. Both can be dodged with about the same degree of accuracy i'd think.
    So then, following that logic, we should make frostbolt dodgeable too?

    ---------- Post added 2012-04-24 at 03:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Solves some awkward gearing issues. Also, back in the real world your DPS is balanced around your available stat budget so in the end this will make zero difference. Shrug.
    This is exactly what I'm saying.

    PEOPLE LISTEN:

    Hunters have a NEGATIVE base critical chance. That means that, wearing no gear, your critical chance is actually in the NEGATIVE.


    That has no actual effect, you don't shoot the guy for half damage or anything, but what it means is that you need to gain the necessary amount of crit before you start getting ANY benefit from critical chance.

    They do this to BALANCE the fact that we require less hit rating. The stat points that would otherwise go into hit are subtracted from our crit rating. In some ways, this ends up being better (like when everyone is undergeared, which is one of the reasons why hunters do so well at start of expansions). In the long run, when everyone has hit cap, it is balanced.

    So, adding expertise will really not "balance those lame ass hunters who got away with it". We are already balanced around it, you just didn't know about it.


    This change will ONLY do two things:

    1. Give Hunters an unfair penalty compared to EVERY other ranged class in the game.
    2. Allow the devs to be lazy when it comes to designing gear.



    I, for one, don't want my class to suffer because the devs are too lazy to do the job they get paid to do.


    That is all.
    Last edited by bandet; 2012-04-24 at 03:33 PM.

  17. #137
    How long is this circular discussion going to go on?

    "Blizz is balancing stats."
    "No they're not! They're nerfing us!"
    "No, they're making us have expertise so that we require the same stat budget to hit cap as other classes."
    "But dodging arrows doesn't make sense! You can't dodge a frostbolt!"
    "Yes, but you need more *hit* to make a Frostbolt connect all the time, so it's balanced in the end."
    "OMG no it's not! We now need more stats to hit cap! They're nerfing us!"

    This discussion is retarded and pointless. Either you understand the larger picture of what Blizzard has to do, or you're being a whiney little brat like the poster above me. It doesn't seem like any amount of logic is going to break through the self-pity doomcrying that some people choose to do.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Skygoneblue View Post
    Either you understand the larger picture of what Blizzard has to do, or you're being a whiney little brat like the poster above me.
    It's possible to both understand the big picture and also be a whiny little brat, and it's possible for someone to understand the big picture and also be a pathological liar and/or an attention whore.
    Last edited by microtonal; 2012-04-24 at 04:08 PM.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by bandet View Post
    Yes, having our steady shot dodgeable is clearly the best idea ever.
    Then get to the expertise cap. Duhh

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Tripping View Post
    Then get to the expertise cap. Duhh
    What is the expertise cap in PvP?



    Next question, please?

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