Quick question about Slice and Dice

[Reikki]

This. So much. Couldnt agree with Vital more.

[Firebert]

It's a filler talent to reach Opportunity. It's mostly useless, but there are not much better choices. And Opportunity IS good. It also helps you to get behind your target a little faster. If you're soloing, the reduced Stealth cd can also be helpful if you forget about dots on yourself at the end of the fight.

So, it's a quality of life talent at best.

Not every fight is Ultraxion. And even on non-Ultraxion fights, the Vendetta Glyph isn't always usefull. Vendetta itself might sound very strong for a beginner, but in reality it is pretty meh. Still, if you're not raiding, Vendetta Glyph will probably be okay for 5-man bosses.

As a Fury Warrior, it's slightly weaker than a glyphed Death Wish (24% against 20% increased damage) and has a slightly lower cooldown (2.4m against 2m), and they both amount to 5% more DPS over the duration (Gurthalak aside). Glyphing Vendetta pushes it up to 6%, which is why it seemed like a no-brainer. Maybe it's because I'm craving consistency (Fury Warrior hangover) and I don't fancy rolling the dice every time I hit Backstab.

Thanks for the Intervention everyone, this is very informative.

---------- Post added 2012-05-01 at 12:02 AM ----------

But you agree with me that a fast CP generation is a good thing, IF you can hanlde it, right?

Yeah. I like having control over my combo points. Ambush into Backstab into Backstab got me 5CP usually, but from then on it was just a mess. I'd much rather have Honour Amongst Thieves work more like a more consistent Ruthlessness as opposed to some kind of combo point river.

---------- Post added 2012-05-01 at 12:06 AM ----------

EJ is a good source. Most of the stuff posters here (including me) comes directly from EJ anyways.

I'd rather not even give them the traffic.

decide to choose a non-viable spec

my Fury Warrior and DW Frost DK

Notice anything?

[Verain]

So, it's a quality of life talent at best.

Well, it's a FILLER talent. It's necessary to put your talent points either in that or in improved ambush, because you need tier 2 of sub or you will lose a lot of damage. And since you shouldn't be ambushing much, and nightstalker does have pve use, it's usually chosen. You won't do less damage if you take imp ambush instead. Either way, you gotta spend those five talents in T1 sub, and you use 3 of them to get your energy back on each finisher.


By all means glyph vendetta on ultraxxion if you don't go combat. For every other fight in the tier (and I think the whole expac) you will definitely do better with backstab. Please put yourself into shadowcraft and check it out there.

[DerSenf]

So, it's a quality of life talent at best.

To reach a actually usefull talent, yes.

As a Fury Warrior, it's slightly weaker than a glyphed Death Wish (24% against 20% increased damage) and has a slightly lower cooldown (2.4m against 2m), and they both amount to 5% more DPS over the duration (Gurthalak aside). Glyphing Vendetta pushes it up to 6%, which is why it seemed like a no-brainer. Maybe it's because I'm craving consistency (Fury Warrior hangover) and I don't fancy rolling the dice every time I hit Backstab.

I'm not sure why you bring up your warrior to the rogue forums here. Joking aside, you can't compare two different classes with different mechanics, different glyphs and different numbers. It's literary like comparing apples with pears.

I don't want to offend you in any way, but this thread is going in a bad direction.
The posters here are trying to help you, with facts that are backed up with maths from theorycrafters and expierienced rogues. Then you question/oppose us with things, based on your opinion.
If you want to play your rogue serious, I strongly advise you to look up some guides and most of all, understand the basics and mechanics behind you abilites and talents. But if you just want to discuss your opinion, well... stop it

Notice anything?

I do, but I'd rather keep it for myself to avoid a possible infraction.
*sigh* I'll leave this thread now. You don't make much sense to me, sorry. But I'm glad I could(?) help you so far.

[Rotesbart]

Don't spec into expose armor. If your raid has a druid (Any spec) or a warrior (Any spec) the armor debuff is their job.
Even glyphed, EA costs you 3(very lucky) to 6(not lucky) globals to apply for about a minute.
Faerie Fire, even from resto/boomkin druid costs them 3 globals, and 1 more global sometime before 5 minutes is up and it falls off.
Feral druid uses 1 global every 5 min to keep up faerie fire.
Sunder armor, all specs of warrior apply automatically from playing right.

So, unless there's nobody else to provide it, and you have at least another melee besides yourself and tanks, don't bother exposing as assassination. Expose is a DPS loss to assassination, so it would take at least another dps benefiting from it to be worthwhile.

Oh. Hunters can also do sunder armor debuff, but they are going to need to be bringing different buffs 99% of the time.

[Firebert]

I'm not sure why you bring up your warrior to the rogue forums here. Joking aside, you can't compare two different classes with different mechanics, different glyphs and different numbers. It's literary like comparing apples with pears.

They're almost identical DPS cooldowns (as in, do the same thing for both classes), in the same way that (it could be said) Tree Of Life and the new Restoration Shaman ability are almost identical healing cooldowns. Much noise has been made over the homogenisation of abilities over classes (or not: see Smoke Bomb), so I don't think it's too bad of a comparison.

And I'm trying to understand what's going on with this class by referring to knowledge of the other classes I play. Such as realising that Backstab is effectively a 35% Execute button, Glyph of Backstab becomes AWESOME, which is why it's taken over Glyph of Vendetta.

I don't want to offend you in any way, but this thread is going in a bad direction.

Tru dat

Then you question/oppose us with things, based on your opinion.

Because I want to know why things work, as opposed to just listening blindly to other people on the Internet and following their advice. It's far more rewarding.

But if you just want to discuss your opinion, well... stop it

Everyone's entitled to their opinion...

[Verain]

Everyone's entitled to their opinion...

Right, but an "opinion" that disagrees with math is known as "wrong" :P
I suspect the worry of drifting into that accounts for some of the bit of semi-hostility you saw.

Such as realising that Backstab is effectively a 35% Execute button, Glyph of Backstab becomes AWESOME, which is why it's taken over Glyph of Vendetta.

Correct. While vendetta is pretty similar to other modern damage cooldowns, Death Wish included, the other half of that is that glyph of backstab doesn't have a equivalent.

The assassination execute is a strange bird. You don't use it in an infinite energy situation (if you have all the energy you can handle, you keep pressing mutilate), but it adds up over the course of the execute phase to be MUCH higher damage without such a situation- but it isn't just extra damage, and it effectively shrinks your energy bar by 30 (you play from 30 energy to 120 energy, using your move at 60, instead of 0 to 120, using your move at 55).

Because I want to know why things work

I recommend 3 things:
1)- EJ.
2)- SimulationCraft
3)- Shadowcraft

Really, only modelling and theorycraft will give you the WHY in a way that makes good sense.

Good luck!

[RemJay24]

The Rogue portion of EJ is spectacular. I have heard bad things from the other class' EJ sites, and for me - the Rogue Community is one of the best. Even if you don't like EJ, it doesn't make them wrong. You're only restricting your maximum potential by not giving them a chance or reading the assassination guide.

http://shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com/

Our new friend.

[Firebert]

Right, but an "opinion" that disagrees with math is known as "wrong" :P

I realise I'm wrong when it makes sense for things to be the way people say it is, and I make the connection myself. I'd much rather be right and understand why I'm right, than be right at all.

I recommend 3 things:
1)- EJ.
2)- SimulationCraft
3)- Shadowcraft

Really, only modelling and theorycraft will give you the WHY in a way that makes good sense.

Good luck!

I've already said I'm anti-EJ, Simulationcraft just lists what the best spec is for each class (a DPS ranking that I don't particularly care for), and Shadowcraft seems to be an optimiser that plucks DPS figures out of the air.

Not helpful. But thanks anyway.

[Infective]

I realise I'm wrong when it makes sense for things to be the way people say it is, and I make the connection myself. I'd much rather be right and understand why I'm right, than be right at all.


I've already said I'm anti-EJ, Simulationcraft just lists what the best spec is for each class (a DPS ranking that I don't particularly care for), and Shadowcraft seems to be an optimiser that plucks DPS figures out of the air.

Not helpful. But thanks anyway.

You really need to break down and just check EJ then. The explanations and accompanying math are right there...numbers crunched by someone else for your own free benefit. Really solid theorycrafting and truly knowledgeable players. And I've yet to run into any d-bags. Also the way you describe sub and it's cp generation leads me to believe you're playing the spec far too "spammy". generally when you hit 4 points you pool energy and wait for a HAT proc to top you off for a finisher. mentally, not using an ability every global may feel like a bad thing and a dps loss, but as long as you dont cap energy you're never wasting anything by pooling and waiting for HAT.

Edit: Gonna address some other things...You don't consistently go for 5pt finishers because every time you use a mutilate while at 4 points you are wasting at minimum 1 combo point worth of damage, usually 2. Mutilating at 3 still wastes 1 cp worth of damage normally but this is still ultimately worth it as 3pt envenoms are worse than 1 wasted point(where-as 4pt envenoms are BETTER than 1-2 wasted points). These wasted points are wasted envenoms(and accompanying Relentless Strikes procs) and wasted energy pool time. Lost damage. Your suspicion that using only 5pt finishers is more energy efficient is incorrect. a 4pt finisher has an 80% chance to refund 25 energy. Mutilating at 4 pts(without regards to the wasted cps i mentioned earlier) is basically you spending 55 energy for what averages out to 5 more energy per this type of envenom(4pt envenoms will average out to 20 energy refunded each whereas 5pts are a consistent 25). Not worth it.

Sub 35% however you do only wanna be using 5 point finishers as you should only be generating with backstab and having significantly less energy issues.

Second, the comment I made about how i suspect you are playing sub applies to assassination as well. If you're having trouble with your cycle due to being energy starved, you aren't correctly pooling energy before envenoms...and you're likely clipping the hell out of your buff. This is all dps loss...on a suboptimal spec that can't afford to be played poorly anyways.

[Deleted]

Shadowcraft seems to be an optimiser that plucks DPS figures out of the air.

Please delete your Rogue character, we don't such an ignoramus being associated with our class.

The Rogue portion of EJ is spectacular. I have heard bad things from the other class' EJ sites, and for me - the Rogue Community is one of the best. Even if you don't like EJ, it doesn't make them wrong. You're only restricting your maximum potential by not giving them a chance or reading the assassination guide.

Why are you wasting your time with this idiot? I suspect he has a chip on his shoulder because he got banned from EJ for asking the same moronic questions over there, and asking for spoonfeeding is against their rules.

[RemJay24]

I've already said I'm anti-EJ, Simulationcraft just lists what the best spec is for each class (a DPS ranking that I don't particularly care for), and Shadowcraft seems to be an optimiser that plucks DPS figures out of the air.

Shadowcraft doesn't "pluck DPS out of the air." If you know how to use the program correctly (and it is quite simple if you try it), you can see which talents are better, what gear is better, what you should reforge to, and giving out correct EP values for YOUR character. You seem rather stubborn. This is a forum, where you discuss things. It seems you came here to say, "hey - I'm going to spec this way whether you like it or not" without giving our suggestions a trial or chance.

And again, I suggest you click this link and read:
http://tiny.cc/0atldw
(I even hid the URL so you won't be biased against the link!)

@Vital - I remember back during TBC I asked some silly questions and received some minor infractions on there from Aldriana. The message said, "No Hand Holding." I don't dislike the website though, I still visit it almost daily. And that was during spreadsheets (shadowcraft is so much easier to understand... I don't understand anyone who would dismiss it. My friends are jealous this tool isn't available for their class).

[Firebert]

Edit: Gonna address some other things...You don't consistently go for 5pt finishers because every time you use a mutilate while at 4 points you are wasting at minimum 1 combo point worth of damage, usually 2. Mutilating at 3 still wastes 1 cp worth of damage normally but this is still ultimately worth it as 3pt envenoms are worse than 1 wasted point(where-as 4pt envenoms are BETTER than 1-2 wasted points). These wasted points are wasted envenoms(and accompanying Relentless Strikes procs) and wasted energy pool time. Lost damage. Your suspicion that using only 5pt finishers is more energy efficient is incorrect. a 4pt finisher has an 80% chance to refund 25 energy. Mutilating at 4 pts(without regards to the wasted cps i mentioned earlier) is basically you spending 55 energy for what averages out to 5 more energy per this type of envenom(4pt envenoms will average out to 20 energy refunded each whereas 5pts are a consistent 25). Not worth it.

Sub 35% however you do only wanna be using 5 point finishers as you should only be generating with backstab and having significantly less energy issues.

Second, the comment I made about how i suspect you are playing sub applies to assassination as well. If you're having trouble with your cycle due to being energy starved, you aren't correctly pooling energy before envenoms...and you're likely clipping the hell out of your buff. This is all dps loss...on a suboptimal spec that can't afford to be played poorly anyways.

I don't use Mutilate on 4CP. I use whatever is available that generates one combo point: that is, Backstab during Execute, Shiv, Sinister Strike, or Backstab outside of Execute (in ascending overall energy cost). Most of the time Mutilate into Mutilate generates 5CP so I don't have to worry about it, but there's the odd occasion where it grants me 4 (or it grants me 3 when I already have one from Ruthlessness), so I switch over to that. I'm guessing that's not worth it either.

Regarding your last statement: which buff? Slice and Dice clips itself due to Envenom and only re-Rupture when there's two seconds or less (tick time). The problem is (was) juggling the buffs: Slice and Dice (which I can forget about after the first application), Expose Armor (which I won't apply), and Rupture (20s). If you're saying to not Envenom whilst I have the buff, should I switch to Eviscerate until the Envenom time elapses?

This is far more complicated than spamming Howling Blast, Necrotic Strike or Bloodthirst. Lol.

---------- Post added 2012-05-01 at 02:10 AM ----------

Why are you wasting your time with this idiot? I suspect he has a chip on his shoulder because he got banned from EJ for asking the same moronic questions over there, and asking for spoonfeeding is against their rules.

Not been banned, just infracted twice for posing an argument that was immediately dismissed because it concerned things they considered "not optimal", even though I showed it to be viable. On two different class forums.

[Bupert]

I don't use Mutilate on 4CP. I use whatever is available that generates one combo point: that is, Backstab during Execute, Shiv, Sinister Strike, or Backstab outside of Execute (in ascending overall energy cost). Most of the time Mutilate into Mutilate generates 5CP so I don't have to worry about it, but there's the odd occasion where it grants me 4 (or it grants me 3 when I already have one from Ruthlessness), so I switch over to that. I'm guessing that's not worth it either.

Mut. should be your only cp generator above 35%, don't bother with anything else, it's not worth it.

Not been banned, just infracted twice for posing an argument that was immediately dismissed because it concerned things they considered "not optimal", even though I showed it to be viable. On two different class forums.

Would you just look at what you said? Optimal is very far from viable. Sorry you had a disagreement with EJ, but that's really where a lot of your questions will be answered.

[Firebert]

Shadowcraft doesn't "pluck DPS out of the air." If you know how to use the program correctly (and it is quite simple if you try it), you can see which talents are better, what gear is better, what you should reforge to, and giving out correct EP values for YOUR character.

I have tried it. It says that Glyph of Mutilate is worth almost 200 DPS, Glyph of Rupture almost 190DPS, which talents are worth however much DPS, reforger, gem optimiser, DPS tracker and so on. It's probably better than Ask Mr Robot (which I hold in quite high esteem) and incorporates WoWreforge (whether properly or not is yet to be seen).

Problem is, there's no chatter. And they do all their chatter on EJ.

It seems you came here to say, "hey - I'm going to spec this way whether you like it or not" without giving our suggestions a trial or chance.

Nope:

Such as realising that Backstab is effectively a 35% Execute button, Glyph of Backstab becomes AWESOME, which is why it's taken over Glyph of Vendetta.

And again, I suggest you click this link and read:
http://tiny.cc/0atldw
(I even hid the URL so you won't be biased against the link!)

I suppose third time's a charm.

---------- Post added 2012-05-01 at 02:20 AM ----------

Would you just look at what you said? Optimal is very far from viable.

In which case, we should just scrap the following specs:
Fire and Frost Mage
Affliction and Demonology Warlock
Combat and Assassination Rogue
Survival and Beast Mastery Hunter
Fury Warriors
Enhancement Shaman
Balance Druids
Frost DKs (both types)
---source: http://www.simulationcraft.org/432/Raid_T13H.html

Sorry, I don't subscribe to the idea that everyone should just think about playing the few specs that are optimal.

[ymirsson]

What is a chatter and why would you need one?

Regarding "the clipped buff": Envenom buffs your poison application percents. Reading is tech. You should pool energy when your evenom buff is running, just like mentioned in the assassination guide.

[Bupert]

No need to get on that soapbox I never said sub-optimal specs shouldn't be played, nor do I agree with that. I was just pointing out that you were infracted because the discussion (I assume) was geared towards optimal play, not just viable play.

[Firebert]

What is a chatter and why would you need one?

As in, people who made the site explaining how they came up with all their calculations.

Regarding "the clipped buff": Envenom buffs your poison application percents. You should pool energy when your evenom buff is running, just like mentioned in the assassination guide.

Why pool energy? Surely using abilities increases the amount of attacks on your target for the duration, increasing your applications of your poisons further? With Master Poisoner ensuring that Envenom doesn't eat your Deadly stack on your target, spending 6 seconds with multiple Instant applications, generating combo points and preparing for the next Envenom/refresh of Rupture is better than just autoattacking, surely?

[Zik3l]

First of all, please do not read this with any emotion attached, I am just stating facts - none of the below is a personal attack.

There is a lot wrong with this if you are looking for answers to questions on top end Pve specs. I suggest getting a basic knowledge of rogue and try not to re-invent the wheel. Pretty much everything in rogue is systematic and mathematical. We have just about everything down to it's optimal performance with every road explored.

It's always good to ask questions, but all of these questions can be answered just by thinking about it a little longer or reading up. Whilst every talent and glyph is a bonus to most specs, think about what you are giving up.

Mutilate, Backstab and Rupture are all core abilities of Assassination - to not use these glyphs would be incredibly stupid, especially when looking at replacing them with the SND glyph which is basically useless due to the amount of 4-5p envenoms you pump out automatically refreshing SnD. Vendetta - well this CD, 99% of the time will never get full uptime. It's too weak and too long. Don't get me wrong, it's a nice CD, but it's nothing special. Target switches etc make it null and void. Backstab energy refund is huge, Less energy req on Mutilate is huge, and +time to something we keep up 99.9% of the fight? Also huge. Vendetta doesn't come close, especially now that 4P t13 increases it's duration to even longer. For a fight you can't backstab on, you should be combat, Subt and Muti have no place there.

SnD talent might give you some more leeway with this, but remember that by going this far into the tree you are giving up Subt Talents which are a huge DPS increase. Whilst extra time on SnD might be nice - it's not needed, you can cope quite fine with a standard 5p SnD time before you go back to an envenom - after all, you only need to spend 1p on a SND to get a 5P timer after you Envenom.


Don't disregard other specs; a good rogue needs to know how to play every spec to adapt to the encounter. For the first few months of DS I was using all 3 specs every single week. But as it stands Combat is the superior spec when you aren't patchwerking behind a boss - where subt comes up top.

You state you don't like energy regen taking a hit for a cleave, well that cleave is the most powerful cleave in the game, and you can reduce the energy reduction with a glyph. Yet on the same hand you don't like big CP generation? Less energy = less CPS. Why are you complaining?

shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com - Use this website. 9/10 times you will use these specs, with the current only exceptions being pushing Subt PvE Burst for H Spine and Taking impales on H Madness.

[Maelstrom51]

Why pool energy? Surely using abilities increases the amount of attacks on your target for the duration, increasing your applications of your poisons further? With Master Poisoner ensuring that Envenom doesn't eat your Deadly stack on your target, spending 6 seconds with multiple Instant applications, generating combo points and preparing for the next Envenom/refresh of Rupture is better than just autoattacking, surely?

He's saying to wait on Envenom. Mutilating for CP is just fine, its even recommended to pool energy a bit before using envenom so you can get multiple mutilates between each Envenom. But don't waste CPs, of course.