Quick question about Slice and Dice

[Kael]

Everyone here's said most of it, but you really just can't ignore the major sources and expect us to continue to take you seriously. Shadowcraft is a surprisingly and impressively accurate DPS tool for assessing capacity and changes in gear, as well as optimizing reforges and gear

SimulationCraft is not the website that shows max DPS specs, at all. Everyone knows that because they loaded the "best in slot" profiles into SimC and came up with those values. The simulationcraft program itself allows you to simulate any character you want under varied conditions, times, buffs, debuffs, and ability usage (if you work at it). It also provides (both on the well known page and in the simulator) a lot of serious breakdowns of ability usage by time, damage by ability, energy regeneration by ability etc.

If you're so embittered by EJ, don't come here asking us to give you the values they provide... go gnab them out of SimC yourself. It's a powerful tool if you learn to use it. Short of that, Shadowcraft is really user-friendly. It'll answer your gearing questions.

The ideal for pre-envenom is to be around 80 energy, so you can immediately pop 2 mutilates and (if needed) burn a rupture without losing a beat or losing the envenom buff uptime. "Clipping" the buff is when you envenom with the buff still up, and if you needed to refresh rupture or don't have plenty of energy, it's a DPS loss because you can't immediately Mut again.

You're honestly nearly asking for an entire assassination guide in the general direction of your queries, which EJ provides. Hate EJ? Try Noxxic or another site, but don't ask us to rewrite the guide for you.

[RemJay24]

I don't use Mutilate on 4CP. I use whatever is available that generates one combo point: that is, Backstab during Execute, Shiv, Sinister Strike, or Backstab outside of Execute (in ascending overall energy cost).

nooooooooooooooooooo. Sinister striking as Assassination is like eating pizza with a spoon. You just don't do it. Shiv is bad - I don't even have it on bars in my pve spec. Sinister striking with a dagger has been bad and always will be bad. You're throwing away perfectly good energy.

As a Rogue you will learn the term "DPS per energy."

For example, as combat spec - Rupture costs 25 energy, where as eviscerate costs 35 energy. Eviscerate does more damage, but if you bring in basic math, Rupture Dmg divided by 25 energy is greater than Eviscerate Dmg divided by 35 energy. However, this was just an example. Nowadays most combat Rogues completely ignore Rupture.

[Rotesbart]

Ask Mr Robot (which I hold in quite high esteem)

In general I find Mr Robot usable. Good mostly for figuring out how best to shave points to be as close to hit cap and expertise caps for example.

However, it is in no way the guaranteed best. I've seen several situations, particularly on tank classes, where it simply ignores reality and spits out some really bad gemming.

Example: It wanted my warrior to ignore bonuses on his belt and leg armor. Gemming their way was 80 mastery, 60 stamina, 10 parry. Matching the bonuses gave 80 mastery, 60 stamina, and 30 parry.

Robot thought that 30 < 10.

Not really sure what in their maths caused that evaluation to shake out, but it was pretty mind boggling.

Back on topic though, if you're totally unwilling to read ej's rogue forums, you're dismissing the people who are most near 'correct.' They've put a lot of work into doing the math, from spreadsheets to more modern means, and no matter what:
the abilities you are using at 4 combo points are a dps loss. Your damage comes from poison procs during envenom buffs, and the most efficient use of energy possible.

Using energy on shiv is ALWAYS wrong, and backstab is wrong 65% of the time, at least. Wasting that energy makes you unable to use more mutilates between envenom applications. No matter what, mutilate will hit harder than shiv has a hope to. Shiv has 0% crit chance, and 0% poison crit chance. Backstab costs too much energy >35% to be efficient.

If you still can't understand it, try this:

turn on combat logging and set up world of logs for yourself.

Play the way you play for some decent length of time. Say 10 minutes.

Then play the way EJ/Everyone else says, for the same length of time.

Ten minutes is a pretty small sample size. But all the same, you will likely see that you are wrong.

[Firebert]

You state you don't like energy regen taking a hit for a cleave, well that cleave is the most powerful cleave in the game, and you can reduce the energy reduction with a glyph. Yet on the same hand you don't like big CP generation? Less energy = less CPS. Why are you complaining?

I'd consider the CP generation of Assassination better than Subtlety, as you know where you stand during each GCD. Mutilating on 1CP will put you at 3CPs or 4CPs, whereas due to the way Honour Amongst Thieves works you can never be quite sure if a 1CP generator or a 2CP generator will do. Everyone seems to think I've been playing (both of) the spec(s) wrong anyway.

[RemJay24]

I'd consider the CP generation of Assassination better than Subtlety, as you know where you stand during each GCD. Mutilating on 1CP will put you at 3CPs or 4CPs, whereas due to the way Honour Amongst Thieves works you can never be quite sure if a 1CP generator or a 2CP generator will do. Everyone seems to think I've been playing (both of) the spec(s) wrong anyway.

If you play Sub long enough, you'll get a get sense of when HaT will proc. I generally CP up to 4 and wait for HaT to take care of the fifth assuming I don't energy cap. However, the spec isn't for everybody - as it is one of the hardest rotations in the game.

[Meejum]

I always open with Garrote on unstunnable targets, and Cheap Shot on stunnable targets.

Just want to point out that you want to open with garrote on just about any mob because of venomous wounds. Thats also the reason why you want to vanish on CD, or at opportune times, during boss fights so that you can get more garrotes in.

Cheap shot can be nice for sololing and questing, but should only really be used in dungeons or raids if you need that stun at the start of a trash pull or other fairly unique situations, like Alysrazor adds.

[Firebert]

Just want to point out that you want to open with garrote on just about any mob because of venomous wounds. Thats also the reason why you want to vanish on CD, or at opportune times, during boss fights so that you can get more garrotes in.

Cheap shot can be nice for sololing and questing, but should only really be used in dungeons or raids if you need that stun at the start of a trash pull or other fairly unique situations, like Alysrazor adds.

On average I'll get 36 Energy from Garroting over an extra combo point from Cheap Shotting, but I sacrifice the chance to get to 5CP from a single Mutilate from an opener (if it crits, courtesy of Seal Fate). Seeing as I'm energy starved most of the time anyway I open with it often enough, it's nice to have the option though.

What would be the best thing to do for Ultraxion as Assassination? Being unstunnable and with no access to his back (not that I've tried), open with Mutilate? >_>

[SynergySin]

I'd consider the CP generation of Assassination better than Subtlety, as you know where you stand during each GCD. Mutilating on 1CP will put you at 3CPs or 4CPs, whereas due to the way Honour Amongst Thieves works you can never be quite sure if a 1CP generator or a 2CP generator will do. Everyone seems to think I've been playing (both of) the spec(s) wrong anyway.

You've been TELLING us that you're playing both of the specs wrong.

HaT is also easy to track...every other global, you get a free combo point.

What would be the best thing to do for Ultraxion as Assassination? Being unstunnable and with no access to his back (not that I've tried), open with Mutilate? >_>

Yes. What other choice do you have? Sinister Strike and Shiv hit for crap compared to their energy costs, and Backstab is out of the question.



p.s. Do you know why EJ is regarded as the best source for information on Rogues? Because they don't allow the sort of banter that this thread has seen; if you're trying to theorycraft or "suggesting playstyles" without hard math or examples to back up your claims, you get infracted. That is why we are so sure and precise about what we are telling you, because there is NO QUESTION that the math has been done and what we're telling you has been PROVEN.

Aldriana and crew have proven over 5+ years to be the single best source of information on any class, ever. The Rogue forums have always been better moderated than the others, and as a result the information and math that results has always been the best of any of the class forums.

Consider EJ the single source of light; the shining beacon of hope in a world of Rogue rerolls and legendary chasers.

[Firebert]

HaT is also easy to track...every other global, you get a free combo point.

When did Rogues get a 1s GCD?

Consider EJ the single source of light; the shining beacon of hope in a world of Rogue rerolls and legendary chasers.

And what exactly is wrong with people rolling Rogue and going after legendaries?

[SynergySin]

When did Rogues get a 1s GCD?


And what exactly is wrong with people rolling Rogue and going after legendaries?

Wow, lol. Your first question is the answer to your second question.

[Firebert]

Wow, lol. Your first question is the answer to your second question.

My first question kinda showed your solution to tracking Honour Amongst Thieves to be wrong.

So you're saying that the bad thing about other people rerolling Rogues and players going after legendaries is that they're supplied with misinformation? >_>

[Tripping]

I can't quite get to grips with the OP.

He is re-rolling rogue, to get the legendaries, but he isnt going passed LFR?
And everyone who plays the other specs are wrong about them being better, as he doesnt know how to play Subtlety, and doesn't like Blade Flurry.

But he doesn't care about his DPS, aslong as he enjoys himself, yet is spending all this time working out where to put a couple of filler talent points via forums, because he doesn't like reading Elitist Jerks, or any other helpful websites.

....

[DerSenf]

On average I'll get 36 Energy from Garroting over an extra combo point from Cheap Shotting, but I sacrifice the chance to get to 5CP from a single Mutilate from an opener (if it crits, courtesy of Seal Fate). Seeing as I'm energy starved most of the time anyway I open with it often enough, it's nice to have the option though.

Venomous Wounds is not just for getting back energy, it's a great damage source that goes by the number of ticks alone. Thats why you Rupture with any amount of combo points as soon as the bleed falls of and don't wait till you get 4/5 cps.
The "5cp-Mutilate-opener" you mention is also a self invented playstyle of yours that isn't optimal.
Garrote > SnD (whit 1cp) > Muti (a single time) > Ruptue (with any amount of cps) > Muti till 4 cps > Envenom

"Energystarved" with Assassination is probably because you spam abilities as soon as you can without pooling. Assa is not a spam build like Fury warriors or Frost DKs, you have a lot of waiting time during a fight and need to plan the next few seconds ahead in order to get most out of it.

When did Rogues get a 1s GCD?

.....They had a 1s gcd when I started playing in early BC and I'm pretty sure they had it way back in Vanilla. They where born with it and you are seriously telling me you didn't notice something like this after 81 level ups?

And what exactly is wrong with people rolling Rogue and going after legendaries?

My above comment for example. I get the feeling you're trolling like hell here. And I feel really bad for posting this and taking the bait, after I already said "Bye" to this thread.
Oh well, at least it adds some postcount without spamming I guess...

[SynergySin]

My first question kinda showed your solution to tracking Honour Amongst Thieves to be wrong.

So you're saying that the bad thing about other people rerolling Rogues and players going after legendaries is that they're supplied with misinformation? >_>

Wrong? Rogues have ALWAYS had a 1 second GCD since the start of vanilla.

The bad thing about reroll legendary chasers is that someone, like yourself, who doesn't even know the base functions of the classes' skillset, who doesn't even realize that the class has a 1 second global cooldown, might achieve one of the greatest milestones of my class by doing easy mode 10 man raiding at a 20% nerf. They have not EARNED the daggers, and it's a shame.

[Deleted]

My first question kinda showed your solution to tracking Honour Amongst Thieves to be wrong.

So you're saying that the bad thing about other people rerolling Rogues and players going after legendaries is that they're supplied with misinformation? >_>

Coming back after yesterday and to my dismay, nothing seems to have changed...
I don't see how your first question proved him wrong. The cooldown of HaT is 2 seconds, right... But that's a cooldown and not an active effect that grants you 1 CP after 2 seconds. There will often be a slight delay for the proc and as a general rule of thumb you will know that one of your next 2 abilities will be blessed with one additional CP based on when you got your last.

It is EXTREMELY predictable and you'll develop the feeling for it in no time. Myself being a DK gone Rogue; It's harder to react to Frost Strike - rune return procs than it is to predict the CP generation of Sub... And reacting to Frost Strikes is DAMN EASY. That's saying something!

As for the second question; "supplied with misinformation" assumes there's a place/person spreading this misinformation. There is not... It's just general retardation from people who refuse/don't bother doing their research. Took you 1 page to instantly dismiss EJ and refuse to make use of it for personal reasons, despite the fact that it would NOT ONLY answer your questions; but also inform you of EVERYTHING else you'd need to know to play a rogue effectively.

Now... You have 3 pages of advice, website/sources, links to talent builds... Everything you need. Your original question has been answered. And yet, you're still insisting on doing the wrong thing for the wrong reasons. What exactly was the point of making a thread to hear us out if you're not going to hear us out?

[Bitlovin]

Also, I'm wondering if it's worth having so much put into Expose Armor, seeing as a Faerie Fire on the target seems to prevent me from applying it (even though at 5CP and with 3/3 Relentless Strikes, it's free).

Uh, stop using Expose Armor.

[Krasiki]

The whole basis for this entire thread is just dumb it's very clear the OP has a blatant disregard for any reputable source of information. I'd assume the OP's thought process went something like this...

1) Rogue LEGENDARY ZOMG TIME TO REROLL!
2) Create new character
3) Ding 85
4) Facerolls LFR
5) Purchase Pickpocket

You OP are truly pathetic most of us here have played a rogue for quite some time yet you argue moronic points , ignore valuable information and continue to carry on like you actually have even the slightest clue what you are talking about. EJ is so bad yet Aldriana is such a great rogue theorycrafter they actually have a set of gloves named after them.

TLR , Go back to playing your other chars the rogue community doesn't want you...

[Firebert]

He is re-rolling rogue, to get the legendaries, but he isnt going passed LFR?

I'm not after the legendaries.

And everyone who plays the other specs are wrong about them being better, as he doesnt know how to play Subtlety, and doesn't like Blade Flurry.

I never said that. I said I prefer Assassination over the other two specs because it fits me better than the other two.

But he doesn't care about his DPS, aslong as he enjoys himself, yet is spending all this time working out where to put a couple of filler talent points via forums, because he doesn't like reading Elitist Jerks, or any other helpful websites.

This thread started out as "how does the Slice and Dice glyph and the talent interact" and turned into "this is how you spec, go Combat/Sub as it's better, EJ is the greatest thing in the world, go there". Exceeding expectations at the very least. >_>

---------- Post added 2012-05-01 at 03:36 PM ----------

.....They had a 1s gcd when I started playing in early BC and I'm pretty sure they had it way back in Vanilla. They where born with it and you are seriously telling me you didn't notice something like this after 81 level ups?

There's no talent or ability that improves the standard GCD of 1.5s anywhere for Rogues, in the same way that only Unholy Presence grants GCD reduction for Death Knights. Forgive me if I don't believe you. It also wouldn't explain why Haste is valued so highly for all the specs...

[Verain]

I've already said I'm anti-EJ,

So instead you come to a site where many of us are educated by Adrianna and friends anyway, getting it second hand :P

Simulationcraft just lists what the best spec is for each class (a DPS ranking that I don't particularly care for)

No, actually. Simulationcraft is hugely more than that, which is why I recommended it to someone who has the heart of a do-it-yourselfer. Simcraft's downloadable frontend you can change some stuff about, and it can predict damage by source, but you can also change the priorities and scripted behaviors to try different things- for instance, you could mod it to always do 5 point envenoms, and you'll see your damage go down because you are wasting all those combo points and the little bit of extra evis damage doesn't help. You can try with 3 point envenoms (the only point where you are guaranteed to NOT waste combo points) and see that in THAT case, the three pointers actually DO hold you back. Etc.

and Shadowcraft seems to be an optimiser that plucks DPS figures out of the air.

No, it uses the carefully arrived at figures on the website you won't visit.

I don't use Mutilate on 4CP. I use whatever is available that generates one combo point: that is, Backstab during Execute, Shiv, Sinister Strike, or Backstab outside of Execute (in ascending overall energy cost).

Heh. Ok, stop doing that. Well, most of that.

During execute, you SHOULD use 5 point finishers. You should use backstab exclusively to get them (only mutilate if you WILL energy cap somehow). While you will sometimes waste a combo point, that's fine.

Shiv is not terrible, but also not correct. Shiv resets your deadly stacks to max duration, procs a hit of instant poison, and does exceptionally light damage, and costs energy. The energy cost is what makes this not worth it. You SHOULD shiv if you are going to lose a five stack of deadly, however. This is very unlikely, and on most fights you will shiv as mutilate 0 times. If you shiv, then envenom, you'll be back at the start of your cycle, having gained the 5 to 4 point envenom delta, but lost a giant portion of a mutilate. That's a net loss, and therefore wrong.

Sinister strike is a terrible idea. With an energy cost closer to a mutilate, but without your offhand swing in there, or any of the passive boosts your mutilate and backstab get, this move is just throwing energy down the drain and not producing anything near the efficiency per move that you require. I'm almost positive that mutilating to 5 CP and envenoming would be a stronger rotation than using sinister strike ever.

Regarding your last statement: which buff?

When you envenom, you gain a buff. This buff is called envenom, and it increases your poison proc rates. Ideally, you'll use other energy consuming moves during this buff, and then press envenom again just as it is wearing off. Your envenom buff uptime being a higher percent is a mark of a good mutilate rogue, but you should NEVER cap on energy to accomplish this. Some times, you simply have to clip, and that is fine, but in general you should be working to have that buff up a lot of the time and not waste the envenoms that accomplish this. So if you are at 30 energy after just having mutilated, and your envenom buff is still up and you have 4 CP, you will probably wait a couple seconds to get your energy high and for the existing buff to go away, at which point you envenom, then immediately mutilate.

If you're saying to not Envenom whilst I have the buff, should I switch to Eviscerate until the Envenom time elapses?

No. If you are closing in on energy cap and you have 4 or 5 CPs, simply envenom again.
Eviscerate you should ONLY use if you are about to lose a slice and dice, and the target has no deadly poison on him. In most fights, that will be never.

Sorry, I don't subscribe to the idea that everyone should just think about playing the few specs that are optimal.

I cautiously agree with you here. There's a lot more to the game than progression raiding, but when we were fighting to get down the bosses, every incorrect spec costs a lot of damage, probably more than any other easily changed thing. The big reason that suboptimal specs should get some attention is that Blizzard thinks that they SHOULD be viable, and they just haven't gotten there- in some cases, they are held back by other aspects of the game, in other cases they are worried about them erasing aspects of the game that they like. That being said, you've also discussed some poor rotations, which doesn't help.

Another note is that suboptimal specs can be optimal based on raid comp or utility. For instance, in current content, mutilate, a perfectly fine spec, is being outdone by the more challenging sub and the spammy global locked combat, whose utility is more useful this tier in general. But I've gone mutilate on Ultraxxion when the other player bringing 8% spell damage couldn't or wouldn't (I don't recall), and our lock was sitting. Going mutilate in this case increased the damage that the boss took and shortened the fight- sure, I didn't do as much damage, but the casters more than made up the delta.

This thinking is going away in mop, which really puts Bliz's feet to the fire on balancing with damage and utility.

Why pool energy? Surely using abilities increases the amount of attacks on your target for the duration, increasing your applications of your poisons further?

Correct, you should mutilate or backstab during the envenom buff, and then sit on it until:
a)- Your envenom buff expires
b)- You are getting close to energy cap

Don't disregard other specs

This.

This is hugely important. As a pure, you have three damage dealing specs, and you will find that many of the abilities that hybrids will pack into one will be spread around here. For instance, currently only muti rogues have aoe, only combat rogues have flurry, and only sub rogues have a teleport, cheat death, and hugely reduced aoe damage. Plenty of fights reward each of these. You can have a favorite spec, and as a newb to the class you should spend time mastering one, but I'll tell you right now, if you play this class more you'll be switching a good deal.

[Firebert]

The bad thing about reroll legendary chasers is that someone, like yourself, who doesn't even know the base functions of the classes' skillset, who doesn't even realize that the class has a 1 second global cooldown, might achieve one of the greatest milestones of my class by doing easy mode 10 man raiding at a 20% nerf. They have not EARNED the daggers, and it's a shame.

So, the reason you think they're bad is because of your subjective opinion on their availability. I can understand this, and they've already said that they're going to reduce the availability for future legendaries.

But as it stands, ten-man raiding is the way to go, and it's been going that way for a long time. Hell, Guild Wars 2 had something about no raid content (i.e 5-mans only). Just, don't hate the way the game is evolving, I suppose.