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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    PvP specs don't exist anymore for MoP. specs give you what you need to function and talents give you aditional tools.
    I encourage you to look at the feral druid talents.

    1. Vanish or base 15% movement increase
    2. Natures Swiftness, 50% longer cyclone...
    3. Mass root (instant cast)...
    4. Burst DPS cooldown
    5. lol another stun on 50 second cd...
    6. great cant root cats anymore... Blizz sure has a short memory, remember the beginning of cata anyone?

    Some classes/specs get great options/packages that compliment PvP play-styles, while others not so much.

  2. #62
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    Overall I think the talents are 85% fine, if they just removed/lessened some stuff like totem elemental brackets, shock restriction (at least for FrS) and totem base hp.
    I think totems in general should have 5% shaman hp at the very least, with the glyph offering an additional 5%. With just 5% through the glyph, I think there'll be lots of 1-shotting still, and while that is acceptable for some totems, for others it is not (SBT).
    I definitely agree. I think if someone wants to target our totems, they should have to suffer some sort of drawback for it. As it stands, they losing a GCD while we lose a vital ability just isn't fair. I also agree that the elemental restriction should no longer be in place, be updated, or made into some sort of talent. If we want to drop Searing, Fire Elemental, and Magma totem at the same time, we should be able to.

    If it were up to me, here is how the talents would look in MoP:

    Tier 1: Pretty much the same. Though I would up SBT's health, and increase AS' duration by 2 seconds. I think NG needs to be revamped as well, but I'm not sure how.

    Tier 2: This is an easy one. I would take Frozen Power off of the shared Shock Cooldown as part of the talent. I would up Earthgrab's HP, because let's face it, it can get stomped so easily that its crazy. I would baseline Windwalk Totem and replace it with this;

    Stasis Trap: Whenever a totem is destroyed by you or an enemy, it explodes, stunning enemies within 10 yards for 3 seconds.

    Not only does this talent better fit the theme of the tier, but it also gives us some interesting set ups and strategies with Totemic Projection. It also has great uses in both PvP and PvE. It also makes the long cooldowns with totems easier to bear.

    Tier 3: The only problem I have with this tier is Totemic Projection. MAKE IT BASELINE PLEASE. Replace with Elemental Harmony, which allows us to summon 4 totems of the same element. Making TP baseline would really change up the game for the class, and EH actually justifies a place as a talent alongside CotE and TR.

    Tier 4:This tier needs to be revamped. However, I really don't know how I would change it.

    Tier 5: Conductivity needs to be altered to work better with Elemental and Enhance Shaman.

    Elemental: Casting Chain Lightning gives a chance to cast HR on the caster
    Enhance: HR's effectives is increased by 20% per MW proc.

    Tier 6: More Resto benefits please. Increase healing done to 20% with Reinforce and Empower for Primal Elementalist. Make Elemental Blast a healing ability if targeting allies.

  3. #63
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I definitely agree. I think if someone wants to target our totems, they should have to suffer some sort of drawback for it. As it stands, they losing a GCD while we lose a vital ability just isn't fair. I also agree that the elemental restriction should no longer be in place, be updated, or made into some sort of talent. If we want to drop Searing, Fire Elemental, and Magma totem at the same time, we should be able to.
    Seriously, if you don't like totems, you don't like Shaman. Complaining that people can kill our totems is like a Warrior complaining that he can't build rage effectively at range, or a Death Knight complaining that he's limited by his runes and can't cast what he needs because he just spent them. If you don't like the core mechanics of a class, that's fine, but the solution is to play a class you enjoy. Plenty of people like and enjoy the totem mechanic as it is.


  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Tier 2: This is an easy one. I would take Frozen Power off of the shared Shock Cooldown as part of the talent.
    The problem with doing this is that it then becomes a dps increase for enhance.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    SCT only had value because Elemental Shaman lacked any other defensive cooldown. SBT is stronger in terms of actual protection. It would probably be weaker in PvP, due the the charge-up and the vulnerable totem, but if those worry you you take Astral Shift or Nature's Guardian. That's why there are choices.

    And you can't compare abilities across expansions like you're trying to do with Earthgrab. Lots of things change with expansions. And no, it doesn't mean every PvP Shaman will take Frozen Power.
    Yeah we have "choices" like you say, but some have significant drawbacks while others don't. Some significantly favor 1 spec over the others. Some are down right almost useless for some specs. Can you really justify calling some of them "choices" in this state?

  6. #66
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Seriously, if you don't like totems, you don't like Shaman. Complaining that people can kill our totems is like a Warrior complaining that he can't build rage effectively at range, or a Death Knight complaining that he's limited by his runes and can't cast what he needs because he just spent them. If you don't like the core mechanics of a class, that's fine, but the solution is to play a class you enjoy. Plenty of people like and enjoy the totem mechanic as it is.
    LoL! That's not the same thing at all. A Warrior being able to effectively build Rage at range would be game breaking. A DK being able to cast spells without worrying about Rune cost would be OP as well.

    Making totems harder to kill isn't even close to the same thing. Part of the issue is that now totems have hefty cooldowns. If I drop SBT at level 50 a level 2 monster can kill it with one bite, and then I can't use it again for an entire minute (Unless I spec into Totemic Restoration of course).

  7. #67
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blitond View Post
    Yeah we have "choices" like you say, but some have significant drawbacks while others don't. Some significantly favor 1 spec over the others. Some are down right almost useless for some specs. Can you really justify calling some of them "choices" in this state?
    They all have drawbacks. None of them favor any one spec. The only one that pops out as being significantly at odds to any spec is Conductivity, for Enhancement, and ONLY because it triggers off LBs and Enhancement isn't designed to chain-cast LBs. I've said before that I agree that, specifically, is an issue, but adding SS and LL would fix it.

    The rest of our talents are all fine from a mechanical point of view. They might need some tuning once we can test at level 90 (as cited early on, Elemental Mastery is probably tuned TOO high currently, but that's a tuning and balance concern), but the mechanics and concepts are sound. There's at least 2 talents in every tier that I'm looking at and am eager to get to use, just for Elemental PvE raiding.

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-05 at 01:26 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    LoL! That's not the same thing at all. A Warrior being able to effectively build Rage at range would be game breaking. A DK being able to cast spells without worrying about Rune cost would be OP as well.
    It's not the same thing because you say so? Yes, those issues would be potentially gamebreaking advantages. Just like difficult-to-kill totems would be. That isn't a contradiction of my point, it IS my point.

    Making totems harder to kill isn't even close to the same thing. Part of the issue is that now totems have hefty cooldowns. If I drop SBT at level 50 a level 2 monster can kill it with one bite, and then I can't use it again for an entire minute (Unless I spec into Totemic Restoration of course).
    Totemic Restoration.
    Glyph of Totemic Encirclement.
    Glyph of Totemic Vigor.

    You have the tools to make them harder to kill.

    Also, totems don't generate any threat, so the only way a level 2 mob is killing them is if they body-pulled the mob and you didn't aggro it, in which case you deserve to lose the totems because you aren't paying attention to anything that's going on around you.


  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Seriously, if you don't like totems, you don't like Shaman. Complaining that people can kill our totems is like a Warrior complaining that he can't build rage effectively at range, or a Death Knight complaining that he's limited by his runes and can't cast what he needs because he just spent them. If you don't like the core mechanics of a class, that's fine, but the solution is to play a class you enjoy. Plenty of people like and enjoy the totem mechanic as it is.
    God I HATE this straw man argument! It's not that most people hate totems, its that many of them in their current MoP state (and even live, although ele doesn't have many useful ones that aren't on short cooldown) are so easily countered its almost useless.

    The concept of a 5hp totem is fine if it doesn't have a cooldown and you can simply replant one.

    Your argument is like saying all ret paladins damage cooldowns are now tied to Avenging Wrath. Then going and giving every class a ranged spammable purge to remove it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    They all have drawbacks. None of them favor any one spec. The only one that pops out as being significantly at odds to any spec is Conductivity, for Enhancement, and ONLY because it triggers off LBs and Enhancement isn't designed to chain-cast LBs. I've said before that I agree that, specifically, is an issue, but adding SS and LL would fix it.

    The rest of our talents are all fine from a mechanical point of view. They might need some tuning once we can test at level 90 (as cited early on, Elemental Mastery is probably tuned TOO high currently, but that's a tuning and balance concern), but the mechanics and concepts are sound. There's at least 2 talents in every tier that I'm looking at and am eager to get to use, just for Elemental PvE raiding.
    You really don't see how frozen power is substantially better for enh and resto than elemental?

    Or that Call of the Elements is substantially better for resto?

    Or HTT is better for resto?

    Or Conductivity's uselessness in elemental PvP?
    Last edited by Blitond; 2012-05-05 at 05:34 PM.

  9. #69
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blitond View Post
    God I HATE this straw man argument! It's not that most people hate totems, its that many of them in their current MoP state (and even live, although ele doesn't have many useful ones that aren't on short cooldown) are so easily countered its almost useless.

    The concept of a 5hp totem is fine if it doesn't have a cooldown and you can simply replant one.

    Your argument is like saying all ret paladins damage cooldowns are now tied to Avenging Wrath. Then going and giving every class a ranged spammable purge to remove it.
    It's not a straw man argument. Totems are designed to be a low-hp easily-killed stationary target that provides the benefit. All of those are important aspects of the design. If you want them to be invulnerable or hard to kill, or follow you around like lost puppies, or unnecessary, then what you're saying is "I don't like totems, and therefore don't like the Shaman class". I don't like managing multidots, but that's why I choose to not play a Shadow Priest, not why I play one and complain about having to manage multiple DoTs and asking for them to be combined into one DoT so I can focus on the direct-casting I prefer.

    If you want to play a class that doesn't have to deal with totem vulnerabilities, there's 10 other classes in MoP to pick from. 9 in Cataclysm. There's plenty of choices out there. I absolutely do not understand the mindset that says "I will play something I don't enjoy, and then complain about what I don't enjoy until they change it".

    You really don't see how frozen power is substantially better for enh and resto than elemental?

    Or that Call of the Elements is substantially better for resto?

    Or HTT is better for resto?

    Or Conductivity's uselessness in elemental PvP?
    FP is just fine for Elemental. We already use Frost Shock extensively in PvP. If you need a single-target slow, Frost Shock is your go-to tool. This is how priority systems work; if you want the CC more than the DPS of another shock, you use Frost Shock. If the Elemental player doesn't think they'll be using Frost Shock much, they've got other options to pick from. No, the idea that FP is "bad" for Elemental is based on a misunderstanding of how Elemental gameplay works.

    Call of the Elements is not better for Resto. It has an 8 minute cooldown. It would mean 5 Mana Tide Totems in that period, rather than 4; not a huge boost. If you're thinking of Spirit Link Totem, you're entirely off-base; SLT works amazingly well with Totemic Restoration. In that 8 minutes, you normally can get 3 SLTs off based on the CD (one early, one at ~3.5-4 minutes, one near the end), due to the 3 minute CD on SLT. Totemic Restoration gives you a 4th. If you took Totemic Restoration, and canceled SLT at the halfway mark (3 seconds is enough, with proper timing, to mitigate a big splash of AoE, and you only need one tick of the health distribution in most cases), it effectively gets a 1.5 minute CD. Which means you can fit in ~6. Totemic Projection also has clear situational uses, letting you toss totems like SLT into the pack where it will do the most benefit, rather than having to run into position first. So no, CotE is by NO reasonable argument the best choice for Resto.

    HTT is not king for Resto. HTT provides one burst of healing on a CD. AG provides strong single-target healing on a similar CD. Conductivity provides either decent healing while using Telluric Currents for mana regen or insanely good AoE heals on stacked targets, and doesn't have any CD at all, it's up every time you cast Healing Rain. All three have obvious, but different, uses for Resto. If anything, I'd say Conductivity is the bigger winner for Resto, rather than HTT.

    Conductivity might not have much use in Elemental PvP, but that's a spec/role niche, and talents are not intended to be equally useful for every spec under every set of circumstances. If that's what you thought the talent design would provide, you were grossly mistaken.
    Last edited by Endus; 2012-05-05 at 05:53 PM.


  10. #70
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It's not the same thing because you say so? Yes, those issues would be potentially gamebreaking advantages. Just like difficult-to-kill totems would be. That isn't a contradiction of my point, it IS my point.
    Its not the same thing because its not the same thing. Making all Shaman totems 10% of the Shaman's health wouldn't be OP at all.


    Totemic Restoration.
    What if I prefer Call of Elements?

    Glyph of Totemic Encirclement.
    Doesn't really solve the problem.

    Glyph of Totemic Vigor.
    Why should I have to sacrifice a major glyph for something that should already be baked into the ability?

    You have the tools to make them harder to kill.
    And to have those tools I have to give up viable abilities. That's not really fair.

    Also, totems don't generate any threat, so the only way a level 2 mob is killing them is if they body-pulled the mob and you didn't aggro it, in which case you deserve to lose the totems because you aren't paying attention to anything that's going on around you.
    Merely an example. In other words, no matter how powerful my SBT shield is, it doesn't matter because it can be stomped by the WEAKEST of enemies.

    BTW, I love totem mechanics. I just think it's retarded that they have so many unnecessary drawbacks.

  11. #71
    Pandaren Monk Ettan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    They all have drawbacks. None of them favor any one spec. The only one that pops out as being significantly at odds to any spec is Conductivity, for Enhancement, and ONLY because it triggers off LBs and Enhancement isn't designed to chain-cast LBs. I've said before that I agree that, specifically, is an issue, but adding SS and LL would fix it.

    The rest of our talents are all fine from a mechanical point of view. They might need some tuning once we can test at level 90 (as cited early on, Elemental Mastery is probably tuned TOO high currently, but that's a tuning and balance concern), but the mechanics and concepts are sound. There's at least 2 talents in every tier that I'm looking at and am eager to get to use, just for Elemental PvE raiding.

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-05 at 01:26 PM ----------



    It's not the same thing because you say so? Yes, those issues would be potentially gamebreaking advantages. Just like difficult-to-kill totems would be. That isn't a contradiction of my point, it IS my point.



    Totemic Restoration.
    Glyph of Totemic Encirclement.
    Glyph of Totemic Vigor.

    You have the tools to make them harder to kill.

    Also, totems don't generate any threat, so the only way a level 2 mob is killing them is if they body-pulled the mob and you didn't aggro it, in which case you deserve to lose the totems because you aren't paying attention to anything that's going on around you.
    ..... So why does not mirror images all have 5 hp each ?
    I do not get the massive problem with giving the totems say the same hp as mirror images/snake trap.
    Would it be a dramatic change? No, slightly better/reliable utility YES.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It's not a straw man argument. Totems are designed to be a low-hp easily-killed stationary target that provides the benefit. All of those are important aspects of the design. If you want them to be invulnerable or hard to kill, or follow you around like lost puppies, or unnecessary, then what you're saying is "I don't like totems, and therefore don't like the Shaman class". I don't like managing multidots, but that's why I choose to not play a Shadow Priest, not why I play one and complain about having to manage multiple DoTs and asking for them to be combined into one DoT so I can focus on the direct-casting I prefer.

    If you want to play a class that doesn't have to deal with totem vulnerabilities, there's 10 other classes in MoP to pick from. 9 in Cataclysm. There's plenty of choices out there. I absolutely do not understand the mindset that says "I will play something I don't enjoy, and then complain about what I don't enjoy until they change it".
    WoW! you say its not a straw man argument, but that's exactly what it is, text book example.

    "A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position" Straight from wiki.

    It's not that I want lol invincible totems that "follow me around like lost puppies", its that the ability of any DPS to 1 shot them with white melee swing or virtually any instant cast is BS. Not to mention healers can even melee 1 shot 5hp ones and 1-2 shot others with a spell.

    The idea of killing totems is irreverent as elemental atm on live because 1. I have SCT to add a buffer, this is gone in MoP. 2. As ele there is no totems that are worth protecting so its a non issue (either they can be recast or have instant effects that serve their purpose like grounding or tremor). With many of our cooldowns associated with totems in MoP this changes the game.

    Yes we can glyph for some protection, but then that's just 1 less glyph choice we have and still can get 1 shot by DPS. And you can't use totemic vigor as a deterrent for killing totems... Not like its hard to see what totem was cast when they are pulsing swirly blue circle out from it

    And your argument about DoT classes is way off. Its like when Shadow Priests didn't have dispel protection with VT. Its not that Shadow Priests were complaining omg I hate managing my DoT's, it was wow any healer can dispel my damage with little repercussions. That's why they added the horror penalty for dispelling it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    FP is just fine for Elemental. We already use Frost Shock extensively in PvP. If you need a single-target slow, Frost Shock is your go-to tool. This is how priority systems work; if you want the CC more than the DPS of another shock, you use Frost Shock. If the Elemental player doesn't think they'll be using Frost Shock much, they've got other options to pick from. No, the idea that FP is "bad" for Elemental is based on a misunderstanding of how Elemental gameplay works.
    I'm not arguing Frozen Power is a bad talent, but that is substantially easier for resto/enh to benefit from it than ele since you don't have to manage the other 2 as
    significant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Call of the Elements is not better for Resto. It has an 8 minute cooldown. It would mean 5 Mana Tide Totems in that period, rather than 4; not a huge boost. If you're thinking of Spirit Link Totem, you're entirely off-base; SLT works amazingly well with Totemic Restoration. In that 8 minutes, you normally can get 3 SLTs off based on the CD (one early, one at ~3.5-4 minutes, one near the end), due to the 3 minute CD on SLT. Totemic Restoration gives you a 4th. If you took Totemic Restoration, and canceled SLT at the halfway mark (3 seconds is enough, with proper timing, to mitigate a big splash of AoE, and you only need one tick of the health distribution in most cases), it effectively gets a 1.5 minute CD. Which means you can fit in ~6. Totemic Projection also has clear situational uses, letting you toss totems like SLT into the pack where it will do the most benefit, rather than having to run into position first. So no, CotE is by NO reasonable argument the best choice for Resto.

    HTT is not king for Resto. HTT provides one burst of healing on a CD. AG provides strong single-target healing on a similar CD. Conductivity provides either decent healing while using Telluric Currents for mana regen or insanely good AoE heals on stacked targets, and doesn't have any CD at all, it's up every time you cast Healing Rain. All three have obvious, but different, uses for Resto. If anything, I'd say Conductivity is the bigger winner for Resto, rather than HTT.

    Conductivity might not have much use in Elemental PvP, but that's a spec/role niche, and talents are not intended to be equally useful for every spec under every set of circumstances. If that's what you thought the talent design would provide, you were grossly mistaken.
    Im not saying CotE will be the best choice for Resto, simply that it is better since it does everything an Elemental/Enhance shamans CotE does PLUS refreshed SLT and MTT.

    Conductivity is just as worthless (outside maybe turtle AV's) for PvP as resto and even enh for that matter.

    And yes call me crazy, but I hope that each talent can have uses for both PvE and PvP for all 3 specs.
    Last edited by Blitond; 2012-05-05 at 06:23 PM.

  13. #73
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Its not the same thing because its not the same thing. Making all Shaman totems 10% of the Shaman's health wouldn't be OP at all.
    If you want that, there's a glyph for it.

    What if I prefer Call of Elements?
    Then take Call of Elements. You can't honestly argue that other valid choices mean one choice is "bad".

    Why should I have to sacrifice a major glyph for something that should already be baked into the ability?
    Circular reasoning. You need to prove that it's something that needs to be baked in; you can't dismiss the glyph because it "should be baked in" as part of your effort to prove that it should be baked in.

    Because if your argument is that totems need to have 10% of the Shaman's health, my counterpoint is going to be "no they don't", and since you've provided absolutely no statistical or logical proofs to support your claim, I'm under no requirement to provide any for my own to effectively counter you. Because all you've stated is an opinion, and opinions hold zero value when discussing mechanical natures. You're not actually saying "totems need 10% of the Shaman's health to be balanced". You're saying "I would like Shaman totems to have 10% of Shaman health". And then trying to claim that that opinion has the same force as an actual argument, when it does not.

    And to have those tools I have to give up viable abilities. That's not really fair.
    Literally every class in the game has to give up some useful glyphs for the other glyph benefits they want to take. This is not a design flaw, it's the nature of interesting choice-making.

    BTW, I love totem mechanics. I just think it's retarded that they have so many unnecessary drawbacks.
    If you don't like the health and ease with which they're killed, then you DON'T love totem mechanics. That's a core part of the totem mechanics, and dates right back through Vanilla.

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-05 at 02:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitond View Post
    WoW! you say its not a straw man argument, but that's exactly what it is, text book example.

    "A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position" Straight from wiki.
    You can't just say that and act as if you've proven anything. I know what a straw man argument is. People are complaining about totem health and the easy by which they're killed. That is a core part of Shaman gameplay that has remained a constant ever since Vanilla. Me pointing that out and suggesting that you don't like the Shaman class mechanics, because you're complaining about a Shaman class mechanic, is NOT a straw man.

    Also, you may want to read up on things like reductio ad absurdum; an argument that takes an opponent's premises to an extreme and ridiculous conclusion. This is explicitly NOT a straw man, and is entirely logically sound; if premises can lead to a ridiculous conclusion, then the premises are logically flawed. It's also a tool I use fairly often, because it's effective. If the argument is "totem health needs to be higher", and I say "well, what if we make them invulnerable? Would that be balanced?" That's not a straw man, I'm just extending your own premise to the logical conclusion. If you don't like the conclusion, then the flaw lies in your premise. If you rephrased it as "totem health should be 10% of Shaman health", that would solve the logical issue, but now you have to prove why that particular number is necessary, and why the glyph isn't sufficient. And no, "there's other glyphs I like too" is not a valid argument, since you could apply that to any other glyph; make LB castable while moving by default! Make Chain Heal have more/wider jumps! Etc. If you continue THAT argument to its logical conclusion, you need to remove all glyphs but the cosmetic ones, again a ridiculous conclusion that proves the premise flawed.


  14. #74
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    If you want that, there's a glyph for it.
    Yeah, but a glyph shouldn't be that essential.


    Then take Call of Elements. You can't honestly argue that other valid choices mean one choice is "bad".
    Due to Totem Stomping, I HAVE to take Totemic Restoration for PvP.

    Circular reasoning. You need to prove that it's something that needs to be baked in; you can't dismiss the glyph because it "should be baked in" as part of your effort to prove that it should be baked in.

    Because if your argument is that totems need to have 10% of the Shaman's health, my counterpoint is going to be "no they don't", and since you've provided absolutely no statistical or logical proofs to support your claim, I'm under no requirement to provide any for my own to effectively counter you. Because all you've stated is an opinion, and opinions hold zero value when discussing mechanical natures. You're not actually saying "totems need 10% of the Shaman's health to be balanced". You're saying "I would like Shaman totems to have 10% of Shaman health". And then trying to claim that that opinion has the same force as an actual argument, when it does not.
    You don't believe that a critical level 90 ability can be cancelled by level 2 white damage isn't a logical argument for why the said ability should be buffed?

    Literally every class in the game has to give up some useful glyphs for the other glyph benefits they want to take. This is not a design flaw, it's the nature of interesting choice-making.
    Being forced to take a glyph isn't interesting choice-making. I have no choice but to take totemic vigor.

    If you don't like the health and ease with which they're killed, then you DON'T love totem mechanics. That's a core part of the totem mechanics, and dates right back through Vanilla.
    Since Vanilla totems didn't have long cooldowns. I didn't mind Earthbind having 5 health because it only had a 15 second cooldown. Now it has a 30 second cooldown (consequently so does Earthgrab). Capacitator Totem is next to useless for PvP because it only has 5 hp and a 45 second cooldown.

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-05 at 06:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Sure, if you cherry pick the few talents in the Druid tree that look good, and cherry pick the few that seem weighted in the Shaman tree, to deliver a heavily biased comparison.

    If you actually consider the trees as wholes, though, the Druid tree has plenty of niche talents. Plus, we don't have scaling numbers to be able to determine the true values of ANY of the direct heals, as opposed to relative percentages, and many of the Shaman abilities are the latter (tier 4 is a perfect example).

    Consider Cenarion Ward. It's kind of like a Druid Earth Shield; heals the target when they take damage. At first glance, it looks like it it's going to be far more useful for Resto Druids, by the measures you're using (and also causes your argument to fall flat, since you claimed all talents were equal for Druids). There's no direct benefit to DPS Druids at all. But, we don't know scaling. That spell might be garbage for Resto, something they won't use the GCD to bother casting. It might be intended to give non-Resto Druids a protective HoT, but in doing so, it expects them to be spending time casting healing spells rather than DPSing/tanking abilities, which is EXACTLY the kind of problem you keep picking on the Shaman tree for having. Or it might be awesome for Resto, in which case it's obviously Resto-oriented. Another problem you keep complaining about, with regards to the Shaman tree.

    When you point at the Shaman tree and say "this has problems" and then point at the Druid tree and say "this is what it should be like", when the Druid tree has the same problems, you're being a hypocrite.

    Actually it's completely different. Feral and Balance druids have traditionally been unable to heal themselves while shapeshifted. Granted, Ferals had Leader of the Pack which healed them when they did a critical, and they could instant cast a healing spell via Predatory Strikes, but you shifted into caster form to do it. Cenarion Ward allows a Feral, Guardian, or Balance Druid to actually heal themselves without dropping out of form. It is also instant cast, so it won't effect their DPS that much. It's beneficial if you are a Guardian tanking and the healer can't keep up. It's beneficial as a Moonkin taking too much damage. It's beneficial as a Feral taking too much damage in PvP. For Resto it's an extra healing spell you can put on the tank, or an ally, or yourself if the tank can't get to you, and your passives should make it strong enough to make it worthwhile to take. Again, a talent that benefits all specs pretty equally, and really changes Druid gameplay because Druids traditionally only could heal in caster form.

    Could you imagine if Elemental Shaman or Enhancement had a HoT they could put on themselves or an Ally? It would literally change Shaman gameplay for the better, especially for Elemental Shaman that don't have an instant heal to call on outside of Unleashed Element ELW.

  15. #75
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yeah, but a glyph shouldn't be that essential.
    Totem health isn't essential. I've never felt any need for it in any of the PvE content I've run. I can see the potential value it can have in PvP, as an option, but its not required there; Shaman have done fine in PvP with 5hp totems in the past.

    You've failed to provide any actual argument that totem health IS "essential". You've resorted to circular reasoning every time you're asked to.

    Due to Totem Stomping, I HAVE to take Totemic Restoration for PvP.
    No. You don't. You can take CotE, and use that to reset the CDs immediately. Or take Glyph of Totemic Vigor and rely on that to make your totems unappealing to kill. Choices.

    You making once choice does not magically invalidate the others.

    You don't believe that a critical level 90 ability can be cancelled by level 2 white damage isn't a logical argument for why the said ability should be buffed?
    No, because it isn't. It's irrational and emotional. And let's be clear; the reason a level 2 mob/player killed your totem is because you weren't paying attention and let them run up and smack it. Where is this ever an issue, anyway? The only circumstance that springs to mind is attacking an enemy's city, and you're SUPPOSED to be at a disadvantage there.

    Being forced to take a glyph isn't interesting choice-making. I have no choice but to take totemic vigor.
    Okay, the reason I keep picking on your arguments isn't because I think totem health NEEDS to stay at 5 health.

    It's because you keep using biased and weighted language like "forced" to describe your own personal decision-making. Absolutely nothing forces you to take that glyph. You CHOOSE to take it because you like the benefit it provides. That is not "forcing", and construing it as such is dishonest. Watch how you're phrasing things, and stop using biased language. You can take that as an official warning.

    I wouldn't have any issue with someone who said "I think totem health should be 10% of Shaman health". When they start saying "Shaman are stuck using a broken outdated mechanic and Blizzard should have fixed it so that totems aren't stuck at 5hp, why do they keep ignoring us, and why should I be required to make choices in my own build", they may have the same basic point, but their manner of expressing that point is unhelpful and unconstructive.



    Since Vanilla totems didn't have long cooldowns. I didn't mind Earthbind having 5 health because it only had a 15 second cooldown. Now it has a 30 second cooldown (consequently so does Earthgrab). Capacitator Totem is next to useless for PvP because it only has 5 hp and a 45 second cooldown.

    Actually it's completely different. Feral and Balance druids have traditionally been unable to heal themselves while shapeshifted. Granted, Ferals had Leader of the Pack which healed them when they did a critical, and they could instant cast a healing spell via Predatory Strikes, but you shifted into caster form to do it. Cenarion Ward allows a Feral, Guardian, or Balance Druid to actually heal themselves without dropping out of form. It is also instant cast, so it won't effect their DPS that much. It's beneficial if you are a Guardian tanking and the healer can't keep up. It's beneficial as a Moonkin taking too much damage. It's beneficial as a Feral taking too much damage in PvP. For Resto it's an extra healing spell you can put on the tank, or an ally, or yourself if the tank can't get to you, and your passives should make it strong enough to make it worthwhile to take. Again, a talent that benefits all specs pretty equally, and really changes Druid gameplay because Druids traditionally only could heal in caster form.
    See, this is a decent expression of an argument. I don't have any real issue with any of this, and I've said much the same in other threads.

    The issue is that when I make similar points about Shaman, you revert back to using biased language and pretending that there's a major difference in the quality and relative value with Shaman talents.

    Others and myself have used similar language about Shaman Tier 5, and you replied by insisting;
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    They add utility to DPS specs, but they don't enhance the damage that they do. Just like T6 adds utility to Resto but doesn't improve the healing that they do. I can think of about a dozen abilities I'd rather have as an Elemental or Enhance Shaman over HTT, AG, and Conductivity. Just like I can think of about a dozen abilities I'd rather have as Resto than Improved UE, Improved Elemental, and Elemental Blast.
    Nobody was claiming Tier 5 added DPS; that it added utility healing and NOT DPS was a negative, to you.

    And yet, when we look at a similarly-oriented tier for Druids, you wax poetic about how valuable that diversification is.

    You have a double standard. For some reason, you're out to prove that Shaman class design "sucks", and you use biased language and twist your perceptions where necessary to justify it.


  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    I haven't done the math myself but surely EM being better is massively based on the duration of an encounter? If the fight ends in the 5-6minute mark or the 7-8minute mark would Elemental Mastery not have lost enough percentage up time compared to EotE and AS to have lost its worth? Especially for 5-6minute fights where you'd have only had it lined up with your first Ascendance. Or it the difference really THAT big?

    Even if it is, I'm fairly confident they haven't balanced numbers finely yet. It was obvious from the word go with no maths that EM was better than AS because they both average at 5% haste but cooldowns are always better DPS wise than passives (encounter lengths ignored).
    One of my "future enhancements" of my spreadsheet is to do some fight duration stuff with cooldowns. As I said in my original report, a lot of this stuff is preliminary.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    People are complaining about totem health and the easy by which they're killed. That is a core part of Shaman gameplay that has remained a constant ever since Vanilla. Me pointing that out and suggesting that you don't like the Shaman class mechanics, because you're complaining about a Shaman class mechanic, is NOT a straw man.
    Blizz in MoP is redesigning a large part of the totem system. We get a whole talent tier working with totems, completely new totems and buff totems removed. The "core part" being totems has undergone severe changes in the last couple of months.
    -the core part "stances" undergoes a huge changes, removing all restrictions (comparing stance dance with totem restrictions would be accurate)
    -core parts of hunters have changed considerably since classic (having to take care of pets like tamagochis, having mana, having half a dozen aspects to manage, having to buy ammo/using a quiver)

    When I labeled GW as it existed through wotlk and cata the core feature of shaman mobility, you attacked that and said it was just some bullshit term I made up, but really, what`s this about 5hp on totems being iconic for shamans?!

    If something doesn't work, you change it. Totems change from weak no/low cd sticks to powerful tools, which will ensure much more totem stomping in the future. As such, it is only reasonable to adjust their survivability upwards a little. Blizz added glyph of Totemic Vigor (after the talent in cata beta). Doesn't this show that blizz is aware of totem survivability issues? If totem potency would be directly inversely proportional to their survivability, people would die if they didn't stomp ASAP.

    Windfury, Storm Strike, Lava Lash/Burst, Ghostwolf, Earth Shield... those are iconic. 5hp is only iconic for archaic, outdated and neglected class design, nothing more.

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-05 at 08:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Seriously, if you don't like totems, you don't like Shaman. Complaining that people can kill our totems is like a Warrior complaining that he can't build rage effectively at range, or a Death Knight complaining that he's limited by his runes and can't cast what he needs because he just spent them. If you don't like the core mechanics of a class, that's fine, but the solution is to play a class you enjoy. Plenty of people like and enjoy the totem mechanic as it is.
    Rage is a recource. Runes are a recource. Totems are not. They are cooldowns. If you want to make a proper comparison, compare it to a rogues' arsenal of cooldowns and assume that each of his cooldowns would be targetable, attackable and only having 5 hp (add to that list immobility coupled with a limited range, and being restricted in what cooldowns he activates at the same time (not being able to use evasion and sprint simultaneously, like earth totems).

    Where's the big difference between a rogue's Combat Readiness and a shaman's Stone Bulwark Totem? Aside from details in what they provide, they are dmg mitigation cooldowns. Only that the rogue activates a undestructible one, even forcing enemies to lay off of him, while the shaman's version encourages attacking. Awesome.
    Last edited by Omanley; 2012-05-05 at 08:46 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

  18. #78
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    Blizz in MoP is redesigning a large part of the totem system. We get a whole talent tier working with totems, completely new totems and buff totems removed. The "core part" being totems has undergone severe changes in the last couple of months.

    When I labeled GW as it existed through wotlk and cata the core feature of shaman mobility, you attacked that and said it was just some bullshit term I made up, but really, what`s this about 5hp on totems being iconic for shamans?!

    If something doesn't work, you change it. Totems change from weak no/low cd sticks to powerful tools, which will ensure much more totem stomping in the future. As such, it is only reasonable to adjust their survivability upwards a little. Blizz added glyph of Totemic Vigor (after the talent in cata beta). Doesn't this show that blizz is aware of totem survivability issues? If totem potency would be directly inversely proportional to their survivability, people would die if they didn't stomp ASAP.
    My stance has never been "totems should only ever have 5hp". It's that the totem health level isn't a huge black mark, that they should always remain easy to kill, and that the Glyph of Totemic Vigor is available for those who want more health on their totems, addressing that issue.

    And complaining "I don't want to use that glyph because I want the benefit without using a glyph slot" is not a constructive or helpful argument. Totem health isn't needed under many circumstances. For those where it's a concern, you have the glyph. If it's not a big enough worry to sacrifice another glyph for it, then you've just stated that it's not that big a concern.

    Rage is a recource. Runes are a recource. Totems are not. They are cooldowns. If you want to make a proper comparison, compare it to a rogues' arsenal of cooldowns and assume that each of his cooldowns would be targetable, attackable and only having 5 hp (add to that list immobility coupled with a limited range, and being restricted in what cooldowns he activates at the same time (not being able to use evasion and sprint simultaneously, like earth totems).

    Where's the big difference between a rogue's Combat Readiness and a shaman's Stone Bulwark Totem? Aside from details in what they provide, they are dmg mitigation cooldowns. Only that the rogue activates a undestructible one, even forcing enemies to lay off of him, while the shaman's version encourages attacking. Awesome.
    You can't dismiss one comparison because of some differences, and then suggest a different comparison with just as many differences.

    Again, if you don't like having totems that are targetable and attackable, Shaman is not the class for you. Those are absolutely a core mechanic of the class. We can quibble about the health of totems a bit, since they haven't scaled at all, but even at level 60, 5hp was an autoattack. That's part of the class design, and if you don't like it, there's other classes out there that don't have to deal with it. Totems are THE hallmark feature of the class. Most of what you mentioned as "iconic" were spec-specific, not class abilities. Totems are our major class mechanic. If you don't like them, you don't like the class.


  19. #79
    This will be my last post on this topic/thread, due to a few reasons. This is all in regard to PvP since mobs won't kill your totems unless your doing something wrong/stupid.

    1. Either I'm not making my point clear enough for you to understand. If this is the case, then I don't know what else to say or how to say it sorry. I've tried to explain why its different and important, but I just might not be to effective at relaying my thoughts.

    2. You firmly set in your views. If this is the case then were getting nowhere because I believe just as strongly in mine. People have different views on how thing should work, there's not a problem with it, but after a while it gets redundant arguing them and feels like talking to a brick wall.

    3. You like to argue just to argue. If this is the case then were running in circles going nowhere.

    So here goes 1 last time:

    Currently in live:

    Totems fall into 3 general categories:

    1. 5hp no cooldown - No problem here since we can just redrop the said totem (think searing). No protection is needed, and most people wont even bother killing them.
    2. 5hp cooldown - No problem here since they are instant effects which serve their purpose (grounding, tremor, earthbind roots, etc.). They have done their job and given you that cooldown if used wisely. No protection is needed here either. Generally these have short to medium cooldown.
    3. Long cooldown totems - These cooldowns need some protection, and some get a little extra with more health. Not really a concern with Elemental since we only have 1 (FET) and it's not even usable in Arena. Even if we do drop them in a BG or something, you also drop SCT with is giving it even more protection. This is also the case for restos MTT.

    The design in Cata isn't perfect but it's fine (only real problem I have is not being able to protect earthbind when kiting, but this is a fairly minor issue). We have SCT to protect any totem that needs protection baseline, don't have to glyph or talent for it.

    Moving to MoP:

    Basically points 1 and 2 are the same. Same philosophy applies (we can either redrop the totem or they have short cooldowns or instant effects).

    The problem lies with Long cooldown totems. We have a few new baseline totems: stormlash and capacitor. We also have the ability (through talents) to get our defensive CD, healing CD and Damage/Another Defensive CD through totems. I like the idea of having them, but what good are they if they are 1 shot. They have taken away SCT which was our way of protecting important totems (which wasn't THAT great, but it was something). It feels like Blizzard is giving us some shinny new toys then saying oh wait you can only play with them for 5 seconds a week.

    There have been suggestions of way to fix this, but it's a problem at least to me and others that needs addressing. Now is the time to bring issues to the table when something can be done, don't want to have to wait an expansion to see it addressed.

    Ideas of a (2-3 second) stun when someone kills a totem is one. I like this idea, but see it being abused if it DR's stuns (I sure know I would do it to 1/2 a duration of kidney/HoJ/etc.). It could be a stun that DR's itself and I'd be fine with that.

    Ideas of just increasing the health of these totems. I really don't like these ideas but they are better than nothing. They are just feel bland and can still get 1-2 shot by DPS which doesn't solve much.

    Giving a spell that is SCT similar. Spell would be medium cooldown ~30 seconds and protect your active and totems placed in the next few seconds by a meaningful amount for a set duration. This gives us an active ability to protect long CD totems.

    The comments about not liking totems is silly and childish. It's not like myself and other don't like totems or want them to be invincible abilities that have no counter, I just don't want them to be countered by EVERYTHING. And I'm fine with some having 5hp as long as they aren't major cooldowns. The totem mechanics have changed and is changing even more in MoP, that's why we need more protection for them.

    As for the glyph argument, your right I don't want to be forced to use a glyph for something central to the class. Choices should be more like the purge, spiritwalkers grace or windsear glyph. I don't want to have options that are already chosen for me. Having to glyph just to use a cooldown totem is bad design in my eyes. The current design is we have many fun glyphs but I can't pick them up w/o gimping my class (totem protection being one). By your same rationality then why even have more than 3 glyphs per spec if this philosophy remains the same? Every time an Elemental is moving for more than X seconds they will glyph for unleashed lightning am I not right?

    Anyways there is more I want to say, but getting tired of talking about it. On to another topic.

  20. #80
    our core ability is that enemy can easy 1 shot our defensive burst and control CD
    awesome


    P.S. If you do not like to be humiliated , you chose the wrong class....


    [User was infracted for this post]

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-05 at 10:23 PM ----------

    [User was infracted for this post]
    Reason: Trolling
    Last edited by Endus; Today at 10:00 PM.

    It's not Trolling, it's a statement of fact of the existence the problem which you consistently ignore.
    and this is MY opinion
    Last edited by Endus; 2012-05-05 at 10:00 PM.

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