[MoP] Inquisition Glyph

[Bolt66]

This, when the beta started it was at 10%, even then there wasn't much debate... if they wanted retri's to give a thought about using it they would have to put it at 5% and not adding another 5% and making it a total of 15%.
5%- maybe but I still doubt people would use it, not even in fights with a lot of movement.
10%-no.
15%- HELL NO! NO WAY!
I guess that someone read the #Dev note number 80 wrong, which said: "Must reduce penalty by 5%" and he read "Must increase penalty by 5%." Too bad.

If it was something like 5% penalty and AoW procs (or some other spell) adds X seconds to Inq duration, I would consider taking it. Otherwise it's crap. I could see some people taking it for pvp but even that seems situational since we have more HP generation in MoP and most people can set it up before bursting.

I heartily disagree with people who are defending it for pve because if you can't keep up a 30s buff you're bad at Ret and quite possibly the rest of the game. I highly doubt boss mechanics are going to change so radically that somehow this glyph will be viable. Using it will be a mark of ineptitude and I won't feel badly about turning people away from my group for having it. I understand the concept of sacrificing for quality of life but the perk is not that great and the sacrifice was too much at 10% and a slap in the face at 15%.

[fears]

The whole "we only have it for 9 levels" thing is a bit dishonest, isn't it? That implies that we'll all be perfectly attuned to our raid-level DPS rotation just through the leveling process, and the moment we hit 90 we're prepared to execute it perfectly.

We only get Inquisition at 81 so 81-90 is 9 levels, there is no dishonesty unless your wording was off. My point is that with all our holy power generation it's going to be closer to a wrath-style flow of abilities which will obviously follow a priority system but should be far less rigid then it is now. Without penalty sure that glyph would be fine, but the penalty imposed leans the majority here to the obvious conclusion that its just less dmg regardless of how many times you quote us.

[Malthanis]

We only get Inquisition at 81 so 81-90 is 9 levels, there is no dishonesty unless your wording was off. My point is that with all our holy power generation it's going to be closer to a wrath-style flow of abilities which will obviously follow a priority system but should be far less rigid then it is now. Without penalty sure that glyph would be fine, but the penalty imposed leans the majority here to the obvious conclusion that its just less dmg regardless of how many times you quote us.

I didn't mistype anything. Saying "we only get it for 9 levels" is implying that as soon as we hit level 90 every paladin that ever used the glyph would just drop it immediately. The game keeps going (and you keep learning/progressing) after you hit the level cap.

Also, yes it will cause you to do less damage, theoretically. That was the whole point behind Ghostcrawler's post.

[Deleted]

this glyph provides -> 1 extra tv every 30 seconds.
this glyph loses you 15% damg on exorcism, censure, hand of light, judgement, hammer of wrath, goak end explosion, holy portion of hammer of righteousness, holy damg section of seal of truth white swings when at 5 stacks.
1 extra tv very 30 seconds loses hard to the damg reduction to the rest.
it would need to be like 10%(maybe 5%) lower for a 10 second increase "irrespective of holy power spent" to be useful as it would mean you would do things like 1 power refreshes and things like the old set bonus for it to be posibbly worth even looing at

[fears]

In a realistic scenario where MoP was out, and no other xpac in sight, it's a glyph that can only be used for 9 levels. 81-90. I say 81-90 because as per your statements in previous posts this glyph isn't meant for mid-high end raiders and we only get Inq @ 81. Meaning the glyph itself, not our ability to play our class is limited to using this for only 9 levels if MoP was out. You're just requoting me over and over and defending an ideal and not the problem we have with the glyph at all. It'll make bad players worse, and makes better players shun it.

I like you Malthanis, I've never had an issue with you and I also understand you're the paladin moderator but you don't play ret, you don't pvp and you don't do any current heroic raids. It's pretty hypocritical to defend a glyph that doesn't even effect you. Keeping Inq up as prot is a pain in the ass and I'll give you that, so if this was targetted at prot then that puts a whole new spin on things and maybe in some way it might make sense but it just doesn't for ret. With holy power being in the abundance I'm being lead to believe it shouldnt be hard for anyone with power aura's/CLC/TellMeWhen to keep it up.

[Malthanis]

In a realistic scenario where MoP was out, and no other xpac in sight, it's a glyph that can only be used for 9 levels. 81-90. I say 81-90 because as per your statements in previous posts this glyph isn't meant for mid-high end raiders and we only get Inq @ 81. Meaning the glyph itself, not our ability to play our class is limited to using this for only 9 levels if MoP was out. You're just requoting me over and over and defending an ideal and not the problem we have with the glyph at all. It'll make bad players worse, and makes better players shun it.

I like you Malthanis, I've never had an issue with you and I also understand you're the paladin moderator but you don't play ret, you don't pvp and you don't do any current heroic raids. It's pretty hypocritical to defend a glyph that doesn't even effect you. Keeping Inq up as prot is a pain in the ass and I'll give you that, so if this was targetted at prot then that puts a whole new spin on things and maybe in some way it might make sense but it just doesn't for ret. With holy power being in the abundance I'm being lead to believe it shouldnt be hard for anyone with power aura's/CLC/TellMeWhen to keep it up.

I'll give you that the numbers are off. I've been trying to do some random math on it to see what kind of scenarios could happen that benefit it, but it just doesn't play out with anybody being good with Ret. In the long run, the glyph just isn't for people that are looking to min/max, but the only way it will "make bad players worse" is if those people never actually want to get better in the first place. It really is a training-wheel glyph for people that are having trouble.

Don't cite addon usage, though. The devs cannot assume addons will be installed at all. Hell, I'm sure that there are entire guilds out there that run on the basis of having no addons installed (don't quote me on that, I'm just making a wild guess).

I may not mainspec as Ret, but I do pay attention enough to perform properly when my guild needs me to do so. I'll give you the point on my lack of PvP experience. I really don't think this would be all that useful in PvP, because as I understand it, Ret plays more of a battle-cleric role than running straight damage. However, heroic raid experience has nothing to do with my stance on this glyph, so please don't cloud the issue by bringing that up. My Prot spec perspective doesn't matter either, as Prot is losing Inquisition. Which, to be honest, I'm okay with. It was really only useful in AoE situations, so I'm not terribly worried about it.

Anyways, this has gone off on a bit too much of a tangent. To summarize:
I'll give you that halving the damage bonus is probably too much, but numbers can change again. However, the concept of the glyph is sound.

[Elovan]

Just want to throw this out there for a clarification, it's not one extra TV every 30 seconds, it's one every 60 seconds. I agree with Malthanis, the theory behind the glyph is good, the numbers in practice just don't add up yet.

[Boogieknight]

"Because achievement" isn't really a good reason to re-implement it. Neither is the bag space issue, really.

Inscription will remain useful for the two reasons you stated:

1. You won't need to grind rep for the shoulder enchant faction.
2. You'll be able to make glyphs for yourself and guild members (skipping the process of purchasing them).
3. You'll be able to sell them and make money.

In a specific response to the bolded sentence, I suppose they should have just pulled Blacksmithing, Enchanting, etc., from the game. Since, you know, they're just Vanilla professions. The only thing they're removing are relics, and those aren't terribly important in the first place.

I never said "just" a WOTLK profession, I just said it was a WOTLK profession. It's the most recent addition to the primary professions and keeps undergoing major changes for one reason or another. Relics are gone, offhand items don't do anyone with a staff any good, the new Darkmoon Faire kinda eliminates grinding decks for turnins for rep, and the 359 cards didn't keep up with gear levels. Blacksmithing, tailoring, and leatherworking get new recipes to keep up with current gear levels. Enchanting and jewelcrafting is always a necessity any time you upgrade any piece of equipment. Inscription doesn't really net anyone anything since they're one-time purchases which is why they're ridiculously overpriced. If glyphs become situational like the talents and come with penalties for convenience then there's a good chance that some players will just never use glyphs because it would put them at a disadvantage or reduce that X% DPS that they need to clear an encounter. The tradeoff for this glyph is just unacceptable.

The whole "we only have it for 9 levels" thing is a bit dishonest, isn't it? That implies that we'll all be perfectly attuned to our raid-level DPS rotation just through the leveling process, and the moment we hit 90 we're prepared to execute it perfectly.

Last I checked 81-90 was 9 levels. Your last glyph slot is 75. You'll need an empty glyph slot for 6 levels, get your new glyph and ability at 81, then train yourself to use it with the glyph and choose whether to use it at a later level after using it all that time. Inquisition should be dropped to the 20s or 30s and the glyph should be in the 50s. Train with the ability at lower levels, grab the glyph later if you choose, train with the glyph, and remove it if you feel like you don't need it.

First and foremost, Inquisition still just benefits Holy damage. I realize that yes, we do a good portion of our damage as Holy, but halving the bonus from the spell in no way reduces our damage by a flat 15%. So it isn't nearly the deficit that some seem to be making it.

Two, you have to account for procs. It's entirely possible that you could indeed get similar or better damage based on your setup (which I believe, at this point, would involve taking Divine Purpose).

1) Unless the damage of one Templar's Verdict in the span of a minute (the 3 holy power that would be used to refresh Inquisition once) can offset a halved Inquisition bonus on Censure, seal hits, Templar's Verdict, Exorcism, Judgment, Hammer of Wrath, Divine Storm, and Holy Prism/Light's Hammer/Execution Sentence then the glyph is just not worth it. This will become increasingly so as the subsequent holy damage on several of those abilities increases as Mastery levels increase. As item levels increase this glyph will get worse.

2) You can't account for Divine Purpose since it's an optional talent. Any time Blizzard adjusts the numbers (and they will) to even them out to not favor one over the other the mathy types will still find the one talent to take for maximum DPS if even by a fractional amount. The illusion of choice is not a choice for some of us.

[Elathi]

Last I checked 81-90 was 9 levels.

This'll keep being funny to me since 81-90 is actually 10 levels, unless for whatever reason you're not counting 81 or 90. Also factoring in that 90 is likely to last quite a bit longer than the other levels. There's also no reason to make yourself have an empty glyph slot for 6 levels. You know glyphs can be switched in and out, right?

I'd almost agree Inquisition could stand to be acquired at an earlier level, but, at least in my opinion, it's not that great for questing, and so wouldn't see that much use/practice. Maybe in dungeons, but stuff dies so fast there, too. If leveling is considered a long tutorial, it really isn't that great for teaching how to play at end game.

My earlier line about addons was to say pretty much what Doombringer did. This just seems like, as usual, Blizzard is attacking the problem in the wrong way. Heck, if I weren't using an addon for it, and since I suffer short term memory loss, I'd probably be worse at refreshing Inquisition every 1 minute than every 30 seconds. Even with the consolidated buffs option on, it's not that fun to constantly look to the top right to fish through the array of buffs/effects that don't get consolidated to find Inquisition and its time remaining.

[JayJay09]

If a glyph is needed for "bad" players to play the class without annoying spikes in the rotation, then it's a bad design. And if good players also have some rotation spikes due to using no glyph, then we have another hint for bad design. Everybody will have a hard or annoying time to keep up this (for whatever reason) 30 sec inq, when it is 36 on live.

That's what I just don't get. On live inq has 30% dmg and 36 duration. In beta, inq was nerfed back to 30 seconds and a glyph was introduced that nobody with a sane mind (and a goal to be a succesful player) would use, which increases duration to 60 seconds.

36 seconds doesn't feel perfect at all, so why was it even nerfed on beta instead of improved in its mechanic without punishing players in the first place?

Sometimes Blizzard just makes zero sense to me.

If the gylph goes live like this, I will pretend that it does not exist.

[fears]

I love you Malthanis. I don't mind the back and forth and you're right no need to cloud anything with what I said, I didn't mean it maliciously.

One thing I havent seen mentioned and this is a little off topic.. I know we now get the physical vulnerability debuff, but what is happening to Communion (3% raid dmg, +2% for using an aura)?
I shoulda just caved and got the annual pass but I already waste soo much time in this game

[Merie]

I think a lot of Rets would mind inquisition less if they just had something on one of their talents that refreshed it's duration to maximum upon killing a target worth comparable level experience. As it stands it kind of drags trying to ramp it up all the time when soloing/leveling, only to see it fall off just as you reach your next target.

[Deleted]

Anyone else find this to be a complete insult?

Glyph of Inquisition now reduces the damage bonus of Inquisition by 15%, up from 10%.

As if it wasn't a complete pile of crap before hahaha.

PS It could be a tooltip issue from data mining but w/e it is it's bad.

what are you complaining about? it is not like you were going to use the glyph anyways. At least i wasnt going to.

[Grym]

Are you playing on a Private server? Those Glyphs don't even exist.

Glyph of Unleashed Lightning
Allows Lightning Bolt to be cast while moving.

Glyph of Lava Burst
Your Lava Burst spell deals 10% more damage.

Glyph of Lightning Bolt
Increases the damage dealt by Lightning Bolt by 4%.

All of those are prime glyphs and none are a trade for convenience for damage.

We rae taking about MoP gylphs right? All the ones you are on about are current live gylph which will all be changed to the ones I mentioned.

[Deleted]

I only see this glyph usefull in pvp when you are being kitted and need to have the buff up arealy when you jump to your target to finish him/her.

[Rivin]

One thing I havent seen mentioned and this is a little off topic.. I know we now get the physical vulnerability debuff, but what is happening to Communion (3% raid dmg, +2% for using an aura)?

Communion (and Arcane Tactics and Ferocious Inspiration) is gone in MoP.

[Ryme]

This glyph was meant for new players to make it alot easier to play... Not every glyph is meant to be an dps inscrease.

Even if this is the intent, it's a terrible way to implement it. Forcing you to do less damage to make the rotation easier, as opposed to doing less damage because you're using an easier rotation should not even be considered as a viable route.

No "training ret" that has any aspiration of becoming better should want to use this glyph.

[fears]

Ty for reply SeabeastRivin, I'm a sad panda now though.

[Elovan]

See, the problem Blizzard has with this glyph is similar to the one they originally had with rested xp. For those who aren't aware, originally you started out with 50% xp gain, and if you were rested you could go up to 100% xp gain. People felt compelled to stay rested so they were at 100% at all times. Blizzard changed it to starting with 100% xp and rested gave you 200% xp, and cut the amount of xp quests and kills gave in half. This resulted in the exact same situation as before, but this way rested was viewed as a bonus instead of being mandatory.

With Inquisiiton, glyphing it to make the rotation easier is seen as intentionally gimping yourself for a little bit of convenience. If Blizzard were to make the glyphed version baseline and make the current duration a glyph, it would be seen as a bonus for playing well, as opposed to how it stands now, where people see it as being punished for choosing an "easier" rotation. I'm guessing the reason Blizz doesn't want to do this though is because they want standard Ret rotation to have the 30 sec more powerful Inq, and if they changed it most would feel Inq glyph would be mandatory, which they're trying to get away from. Unfortunately that means that the glyph as it stands is going to be looked at with contempt and disdain, deserved or undeserved.

[Talen]

See, the problem Blizzard has with this glyph is similar to the one they originally had with rested xp. For those who aren't aware, originally you started out with 50% xp gain, and if you were rested you could go up to 100% xp gain. People felt compelled to stay rested so they were at 100% at all times. Blizzard changed it to starting with 100% xp and rested gave you 200% xp, and cut the amount of xp quests and kills gave in half. This resulted in the exact same situation as before, but this way rested was viewed as a bonus instead of being mandatory.

With Inquisiiton, glyphing it to make the rotation easier is seen as intentionally gimping yourself for a little bit of convenience. If Blizzard were to make the glyphed version baseline and make the current duration a glyph, it would be seen as a bonus for playing well, as opposed to how it stands now, where people see it as being punished for choosing an "easier" rotation. I'm guessing the reason Blizz doesn't want to do this though is because they want standard Ret rotation to have the 30 sec more powerful Inq, and if they changed it most would feel Inq glyph would be mandatory, which they're trying to get away from. Unfortunately that means that the glyph as it stands is going to be looked at with contempt and disdain, deserved or undeserved.

The problem with Inquisition, IMO, is the ability itself. Its a short duration self maintained used on CD buff of a type that is mirrorred by SnD, SR and so on. It is also a type of ability Blizzard ahs stated it wanted to remove because it wasn't seen as a fun or exciting mechanic. Too many people saw such mechanics as extra complexity designed to bring them up where everyone else was, a boost that required the sacrifice of "fun" to bring their performance up to what other classes considered normal.

Blizzard saw it as a way to introduce complexity in the class rotation, a way to raise the skill cap. Both views are right, in their way. But this is a game. People need to enjoy it. Playing the class shouldn't be a chore and if a mechanic reduces the fun factor of a class for many, then it needs a very good reason to be there.

There are other ways to increase the skillcap and this alone undermines much of Blizzard intent with the skill. There are other non-DPS finishers that the class can make use of, and that undermines Blizzards other reason to keep Inq around. The question then is do enough people find it "fun" that those complaining about how bad Inq is or feels can be "ignored". I think, at best they tolerate the ability but it simply isn't fun and it doesn't really add much to the class or the rotation.

The Glyph itself....its poor. No doubt about that. Its a DPS loss...but fiugures can be changed. But if its to be DPS neutral, then the choice becomes increased convenience at the price of a simple Glyph slot. And if it isn't...if its a case of convenience for a DPS loss, then too many people will see it as a sign of noobiness. Players would be far better getting an addon such as CLCRet.

I can't say I'm excited about this Glyph.

EJL