This video clearly conveys the problem with raiding

[The Pro]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rd0-...layer_embedded

A little more explanation, for the inevitable haters: (Wall of Text)

I played WoW in vanilla, and started raiding in BC at a very casual level. I experienced the sense of wonder and adventure that he describes all the same, even though I never got past SSC, but he does a pretty good job explaining that aspect of his argument. Instead, I'm going to explain how it's logistically a much better approach to raiding as well.

With 2 or 3 tiers total, (2 released at the start of the expansion), Blizzard makes the game better for everyone involved. The key here is "old" or "outdated" content. Essentially, when Blizzard "boosts" players to the current tier, so they can see the content, the involved players completely skip over other entire raids, essentially wasting the content. Instead of having two different raid tiers, Blizzard wastes their old raids and instead makes people repeat the same raid again to progress. Here's how a change to multi-tier raiding effects each skill group. This assumes two tiers ar the start of an expansion, referred to as T1 and T2.


PUG raider:
Doesn't effect them too much. When the xpac first releases, PUGs would be rare, but eventually PUGs start coming up for the T1 content. This is basically how it already works with the current system. Since the T1 content would be comparable to normal mode of current raids (perhaps a little harder), PUGs would spring up at around the same time. There would not be a significant difference in amount of content seen for a PUG raider. Basically, PUGs just work through the T1 content instead of the hardest content, but they don't actually see less of Blizzard's work. But of course, for the reasons the video explains, these people will be MUCH more driven to experience more content, rather than if they have already killed the last boss. It's really okay for a raider only doing PUGs to not see the hardest tier. In fact, coming from an extremely casual raider, it really makes the game seem like such a greater entity, and keeps you playing, knowing that there is always more difficult things to experince.

Casual Raider:
Casual raiders benefit the most from multi-tier raiding. Essentially, they will progress through T1, just like they normally would. But there's that drive to get to the harder, more prestigious content, and the sense of adventure when you get there, just like the video describes. But furthermore, when you finish the first, T1 content, you can progress to entirely new content in the form of the shiny new T2 raid.

Hardcore raider
Hardcore raiders will see all of the content Blizzard produces anyway, so there isn't much change here. In theory, T2 should pose a real progression challenge to hardcore raiders, which it doesn't really do anymore. I understand that raiders are better than they used to be, but I still think it should be possible. Additionally, there's the reward of more prestige in all of your shiny T2 gear, which all of the other raiders admire and aspire to.


On attunements:
I don't think attunements should be needed. The content difficulty barrier should be great enough that it makes sense for the group as a whole to finish each T1 raid before progressing to T2. And attunements can be annoying for players trying to jump into a raid squad on difficult content.

When Blizzard adds a new tier
First off, I think it's completely fine to add a new tier before the last one is complete. It completely removes farming time for hardcore guilds in T2, and creates incentive to beat content. However, I believe that when T3 is added, there need to be a few nerfs for T2 and T1, but NOT too many. Natural acquisition of gear over time makes this content easier for the target demographic anyway, so these nerfs do not have to be big. The nerfs are so the jump from T1 to T2, initially designed for hardcore raiders, is more accessable for a casual raider, and so the T1 raid becomes slightly more puggable. Again, the idea isn't to remove the Heroic dungeon step, but to make a jump from heroics to T1, intended for casual raiders initially, to be accessable to PUGs. T1 becomes the puggable tier, T2 the casual raiding tier, and T3 the hardcore tier.

PUGs and casual raiders will have something to work towards. And of course, when patch x.0 comes out, they should be able to progress through the T3 content that they didn't quite finish to finally experience ALL of Blizzard's content, not just the newest.

I really can't see how this system is worse than what is currently in place. It uses all of the content instead of just part of it, eliminates repeating content, gives every kind of player something to progress on, and allows most players to eventually see ALL content (not just the new stuff), if they put forth the effort. And for those who never fight the final boss, it's really okay. Just the fact that it's THERE, and its POSSIBLE, makes each kill all the more sweeter.

Thus, the sense of adventure and wonder is recreated, and the World is sound again.

[Tragan]

I completely agree with you and the video. Being a casual vanilla player and becoming hardcore in TBC - all of these points made were what enticed me. Unfortunately I no longer could stand the direction Blizzard had taken the game shortly after Cataclysm came out. I had major hope in the beginning with a welcome return of difficulty (since the game had dramatically changed in WOTLK) and was enjoying progressing through the content, until they announced the change of approach and widespread nerfs at the end of January 2011. Sadly I haven't played since, but I still follow the game hoping that one day things will make this change for the better.

[ShimmerSwirl]

Blizzard is shooting themselves in the foot with their current model. For the life of me I cannot understand why they choose to make their own content obsolete a couple months after its released. They could be getting a lot more life out of each raid.

[Zelk]

I agree. Too many people hold on to the past and won't embrace the present.

And really? " Naxxramas is widely regarded as the best instance Blizzard ever released" He's actually the first person I've heard say that. There's also a difference between conten lasting 5 months and banging your head off the keyboard for 5 months until bosses die.

[ShimmerSwirl]

Blizzard was a true gamer's company back then. Now its just a typical corporate company.

[Schaden]

I find it hard to swallow any sort of discussion based on this video. Sorry, but this guy has his nostalgia goggles so tight around his head that he's cut off any sort of bloodflow to the non-entitled, elitist parts of his brain.

Inaccessability does not make raiding content better. It only makes things better for the tiny section of the game's ego. And thats the gist of this argument every time it comes around. Hardcore players (or people who think themselves hardcore) complaining that they have to eventually share their playground with the plebeians, those vile "casuals" who ruin everything. In spite of the fact that heroic modes were made specifically for them. In spite of the fact that they get special mounts for completing heroic content. In spite of the fact that they will always have that time stamped achievement to show off that they conquered the content months ahead of even a small portion of the player base. In spite of the fact that by the time the vast majority of the player base is capable of downing the content, its going to be aged out or you're going to be in the next tier of content, doing heroics. In spite of the fact that the eventual nerfs benefits you and allows you to farm easier and sell that mount/title to some scrub who's gonna pay your guild 300k for it and that gold is going directly into your pockets.

i.e. Complain about the old grindfests of Vanilla and TBC, but the current system gives tremendous benefits to hardcore players, while allowing them to keep their epeens inflated. They just dont get to do so at the expense of the rest of the player base, which is what truly galls them.

btw: Ulduar >>>> Naxx.

[frequency]

People already cry that you have to buy 2 soon to be 3 expansions to get new players into WoW, now you want people to buy all these expansions and run shit everyone else has passed by.

People complain about 1 year if ICC, well if you need to complete old content in order to raid current content enjoy 2 years of naxx farming to bring new guildies up to speed for ICC, and god pray you don't lose a tank or 2 and have to completely re-gear one

[Recondition]

While I don't see the point, I'm sure attunements wouldn't be as bad now if Blizz made them account-wide, which may be a partial fix to the system.

[WarJames]

I agree too... having multiple tiers of content

they could even use the new LFR system to advantage by having gated progression via completion and ilvl to get to the next tier... here is hoping that's what's in MOP

the raid finder will provide attunment

edit: in responce... todays game has ONE tier Dragon soul... thats it! and heroic on the same raid is just lazy
when they could provide multiple raids you work through

in a dreamers world ALL content would scale according to your level... there are so many dead raids

[Cinnamohn]

Raid finder's presence completely nullifies tier progression. Everyone will always be able to see the end bosses on the first week they're out.

I remember Deathwing was described as the most epic fight or whatever by Blizzard, yet the moment he was released on the raid finder you had groups of 25 people picking their nose with one hand, masturbating with the other, and mashing the spacebar with their foot to prevent them from looking like they're afk downing him an hour later. :\

[Zelk]

While I don't see the point, I'm sure attunements wouldn't be as bad now if Blizz made them account-wide, which may be a partial fix to the system.

They're still a huge barrier for new players. If I joined the game during 4.3 and wanted to raid DS but there were attunements in place I would have to find a group running BWD, BoT, To4W and FL just to do DS. I haven't seen pug for any of them in months, and no guild would take someone who didn't have experience in Dragon Soul at this point, never mind any other raid in cata.

Attunements are fun if you are raiding throughout an expansion, but are too big a problem for new/returning players.

[clevin]

I agree. Too many people hold on to the past and won't embrace the present.

And really? " Naxxramas is widely regarded as the best instance Blizzard ever released" He's actually the first person I've heard say that. There's also a difference between conten lasting 5 months and banging your head off the keyboard for 5 months until bosses die.

vanilla Naxx was widely hailed as the best raid to that point. Of course, it's got competition now that the other vanilla raids didn't provide.

I really can't see why Blizzard does what they do now. The release of LFR provided the perfect answer to people who cannot or will not raid regularly but who want to see the content. Great... do LFR. The nerfs to normal and heroic aren't needed (some tuning might be, I'm talking about blanket nerfs).

As for rewards... no titles or mounts from LFR. A title and mount from normal, a different/fancier title and mount for heroic. No nerfs aside from correcting tuning issues. Everyone can see the content via LFR. Hardcore raiders who want the challenge can clear heroic and get the title and mount to show for it (hell, give them cool transmog shoulders too). Regular raiders can clear normal, get a title and mount and better gear than in LFR.

I never will get the issue with that.

[Deleted]

Heard this before on the forums and I've said it myself. The ladder system was GREAT, there were negatives but the positives out shined them all.

[foxHeart]

vanilla Naxx was widely hailed as the best raid to that point. Of course, it's got competition now that the other vanilla raids didn't provide.

Yeah, except a) it was vanilla here we're talking about so the standards are damn low, and b) he talks about it as if it stands up to this day. Which is jokesy.

[Arbs]

Wasn't that video already been put on here ?

[Deleted]

Blizzard is shooting themselves in the foot with their current model. For the life of me I cannot understand why they choose to make their own content obsolete a couple months after its released. They could be getting a lot more life out of each raid.

Probably because when hardcore raiders clear the current tier, they cry to Blizzard for new content.

People who haven't cleared the content cry for new stuff too, cause they like to think they have cleared everything, when in fact they haven't.

Vanilla + TBC is a thing of the past. People seriously need to wake up. If you don't like Blizzards current raiding model, then stop raiding, or quit the game altogether. They're catering for 100% of their 10 million players these days, not the 1% special snowflakes who consider themselves "hardcore".

No such thing as a hardcore raider anymore anyway. The top 10 guilds clear everything, and if you didn't make it, well sorry, but nobody cares. Only a small percentage of the WoW playerbase cares about the race to world first, and even less care about the guilds who finished 2nd and below.

The game is for the average consumer now, so Blizzard has to comply. If they do anything to focus on one small demographic, they risk alienating the rest of their paying subscribers, who, by the way, pay the same amount of money per month as the special snowflakes.

[Sam the Wiser]

This video again... I agree with his points but really stop linking this over and over again.

[zerocoolhack]

Why do a few people still cling onto the vanilla/bc raiding models. The way the raids are now are better for everyone. I dont know anyone who enjoyed wiping on 1 boss for 1-2 months, it was not fun. Attunements where not fun either, we lost 3 people in the middle of BT and had to go back to attune them which no one wanted to do.

[Shimitsu]

While there is no WoW killer currently on the market, Blizzard is opening the door for someone to seize the hardcore gamer market. If another game can create a difficult raid-like environment that caters specifically to hardcore gamers, that will be the beginning of the end for WoW. These gamers are the backbone of the community; not the casuals.

[CrossNgen]

While there is no WoW killer currently on the market, Blizzard is opening the door for someone to seize the hardcore gamer market. If another game can create a difficult raid-like environment that caters specifically to hardcore gamers, that will be the beginning of the end for WoW. These gamers are the backbone of the community; not the casuals.

RIFT, fucking RIFT.