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  1. #561
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    Nice wall of text, but your thesis fails the logic test.
    ^ The above should be taken with two grains of salt and a fistful of "chill the F* out".

  2. #562
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    Free to play will only worsen an mmo.
    1)Free to play will attract less desirable players.
    I love the dillusion that P2P somehow shields the game from "less desirable players".

  3. #563
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    Free to play will only worsen an mmo.
    False premise.
    1)Free to play will attract less desirable players.
    False premise.

    a) Imagine a sub-mmo being like a restaurant.Where the price of the food is decent.All kind of folks go eat there,and you rarely have rude people.
    Then imagine the restaurant becoming free.You can eat there for free,only some types of food require payment.
    While the food still has the same quality you can already foresee what kind of people will go to that restaurant.There will be way more rude and unpleasant people.In our case,an mmo,there will be way more trolls,douchebags and scammers.
    Terrible analogy, does not support the premise.
    b)It will also attract lower quality gamers.
    False premise.
    Obviously the group in a) fits this description.But it also will attract people who aren't really interested in the game,but are willing to try it because it's free.Those types of people while mostly come and go,play sporadically...actually they will not add much ''value players'' to the game.
    By that I mean players who are genuinely interested in the game and will actively be part of the community,they will be your raiding friends,they will bring competitivity to the game.
    You make a lot of predictions here based on nothing. No references, no supporting facts, just a lot of predictive nonsense. Does not support any premise mentioned so far.
    While the ''free casual'' type of players don't actually do anything bad and they even add value players in small numbers they do break down the social climate.
    This is of course subjective.
    As is the entirety of your post, not to mention vaguely anecdotal.

    This is out of the pov of the active and involved player.Not necessarily only hardcore player,the midcore (casual active) player too.
    To state the obvious,an mmo is a social game,the more game is flooded with ''free casual'' players,the more you have to deal with them,the less chance for you to encounter like-minded players because you have to filter through a bigger less desirable crowd.
    It's clear here that you don't understand how player populations work. Does not support any premise.
    They will also make value players leave who don't like F2p games for this reason.You can count me as one of those.
    This is the closest you came in your whole post to saying something factual/objective.
    So to say these players don't have a bad intention,but things are what they are,they lower the social quality of the game.
    False premise.
    2)Free to play will lead to greedy content. Content designed in a way for you to go to the cash shop asap.
    False premise.
    I can't understand how people like to think about money while they play,that's why I like sub-based mmo's,you pay once a month and you're DONE,you can go on enjoying the game,and if you want something in the game,you actually play the game for it.I may be too old school but I like the idea of doing something in the game to get a reward I want.
    Subjective reasoning.
    Call me old school again but when I buy a game I expect it to have the actual game.
    Not the ''main part'' of the game while you're expected to pay for extra DLC,cash shop,...
    More subjective reasoning.
    About the developing part.Things are what you put into it.
    Not even sure what that means.
    What kind of game do you expect when it's mostly free and the company need to make money through their cash shop?
    Its not gonna grow into something impressing that way.
    Can't see the forest for the trees... I think Star Wars: The Old Republic will be just fine without players who don't understand alternative pay models and are so attached to the old way of doing things that they become irrational when faced with the prospect of change. Please move on.
    ^ The above should be taken with two grains of salt and a fistful of "chill the F* out".

  4. #564
    The Unstoppable Force Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    They will also make value players leave who don't like F2p games for this reason.You can count me as one of those.
    1) Wall of text hits your eyeballs like the Death Star.

    2)If your quote above is indicative of what kinds of players won't be around when F2P hits, sign me up a hundred times. I'm glad that you 'count yourself' as one of the 'value players' that would leave. If everyone who thought like this were to up and leave internet forums and all MMOs, I think the world would collectively rejoice.

    Most of your arguments are just bashing on people with no basis for those opinions.
    Last edited by Kelimbror; 2012-08-09 at 08:01 PM.

  5. #565
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    Quote Originally Posted by Profyrion View Post
    False premise.

    False premise.


    Terrible analogy, does not support the premise.

    False premise.

    You make a lot of predictions here based on nothing. No references, no supporting facts, just a lot of predictive nonsense. Does not support any premise mentioned so far.

    As is the entirety of your post, not to mention vaguely anecdotal.


    It's clear here that you don't understand how player populations work. Does not support any premise.

    This is the closest you came in your whole post to saying something factual/objective.

    False premise.

    False premise.

    Subjective reasoning.

    More subjective reasoning.

    Not even sure what that means.

    Can't see the forest for the trees... I think Star Wars: The Old Republic will be just fine without players who don't understand alternative pay models and are so attached to the old way of doing things that they become irrational when faced with the prospect of change. Please move on.

    What an empty reply.You don't expect people to take you seriously when you don't provide anything constructive yourself?
    Shouting ''it's wrong'',literally anyone can do it.
    Just slow down there.
    Post your arguments about the subject and then maybe we can start thinking about who's right.

  6. #566
    Quote Originally Posted by Profyrion View Post
    False premise.False premise.Terrible analogy, does not support the premise.False premise.Does not support any premise mentioned so far.As is the entirety of your post, not to mention vaguely anecdotal.Does not support any premise.False premise.False premise.Subjective reasoning.More subjective reasoning.

    Can't see the forest for the trees... I think Star Wars: The Old Republic will be just fine without players who don't understand alternative pay models and are so attached to the old way of doing things that they become irrational when faced with the prospect of change. Please move on.
    While he's post might not be factually correct yours is even worse, you dismiss he's whole post without even the slightest hint of intelligent reasoning nor argument. I'd love to see your factual support for the claim that alternative pay methods are better or equally good, and even if they are equally good why it's bad to want the one over the other.

  7. #567
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    What an empty reply.You don't expect people to take you seriously when you don't provide anything constructive yourself?
    Shouting ''it's wrong'',literally anyone can do it.
    Just slow down there.
    Post your arguments about the subject and then maybe we can start thinking about who's right.
    There's literally nothing to discuss, as you've yet to state anything of substance that wasn't pulled, seemingly, out of your ass.

    No offense. You made a terrible argument. There's no rebuttal other than to say what an empty, pointless statement it was.
    ^ The above should be taken with two grains of salt and a fistful of "chill the F* out".

  8. #568
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    What an empty reply.You don't expect people to take you seriously when you don't provide anything constructive yourself?
    Shouting ''it's wrong'',literally anyone can do it.
    Just slow down there.
    Post your arguments about the subject and then maybe we can start thinking about who's right.
    Its not an empty reply. He just disagrees with you. Honestly its not like we have not seen similar claims before and, even though I might agree with some of them, it is hardly required that he go into every rebuttal or counter in depth.
    Sir Robin, the Not-Quite-So-Brave-As-Sir-Lancelot.
    Who had nearly fought the Dragon of Angnor.
    Who had almost stood up to the vicious Chicken of Bristol.
    And who had personally wet himself, at the Battle of Badon Hill.

  9. #569
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zokonorb View Post
    I love the dillusion that P2P somehow shields the game from "less desirable players".
    Here I said :
    a) Imagine a sub-mmo being like a restaurant.Where the price of the food is decent.All kind of folks go eat there,and you rarely have rude people.
    I obviously point out that I'm not ignoring there are unpleasant players on P2P too.

  10. #570
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    Here I said :


    I obviously point out that I'm not ignoring there are unpleasant players on P2P too.
    Yeah, but you didn't support that statement at all. It's purely subjective.

    Just saying that something is rare doesn't mean it's so. If you want to make the argument that F2P games attract undesirable players with greater frequency, then say that (first of all) and then back it up.
    ^ The above should be taken with two grains of salt and a fistful of "chill the F* out".

  11. #571
    Quote Originally Posted by Profyrion View Post
    Yeah, but you didn't support that statement at all. It's purely subjective.

    Just saying that something is rare doesn't mean it's so. If you want to make the argument that F2P games attract undesirable players with greater frequency, then say that (first of all) and then back it up.
    I have yet to see you back up why switching model is good nor why it's supposedly irrational not to want it.

  12. #572
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    I have yet to see you back up why switching model is good nor why it's supposedly irrational not to want it.
    Well the "short term" results we've seen for games like DDO and LotRO would appear to be exactly the sort of thing a game with ongoing severe retention problems would need. Of course "long term" could be something else entirely and I personally doubt how a game as almost shockingly linear as TOR is will benefit for long, retention-wise, even when offering such content for free.
    Sir Robin, the Not-Quite-So-Brave-As-Sir-Lancelot.
    Who had nearly fought the Dragon of Angnor.
    Who had almost stood up to the vicious Chicken of Bristol.
    And who had personally wet himself, at the Battle of Badon Hill.

  13. #573
    Quote Originally Posted by SirRobin View Post
    Well the "short term" results we've seen for games like DDO and LotRO would appear to be exactly the sort of thing a game with ongoing severe retention problems would need. Of course "long term" could be something else entirely and I personally doubt how a game as almost shockingly linear as TOR is will benefit for long, retention-wise, even when offering such content for free.
    Yeah I think we concluded most that we can on the topic by now I just found it interesting that he made such a big stink about some one posting he's opinion with the argument that he needed to back it up and then proceed to not supply he's own backed up opinion. =)

  14. #574
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    ---------- Post added 2012-08-09 at 08:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    1) Wall of text hits your eyeballs like the Death Star.

    2)If your quote above is indicative of what kinds of players won't be around when F2P hits, sign me up a hundred times. I'm glad that you 'count yourself' as one of the 'value players' that would leave. If everyone who thought like this were to up and leave internet forums and all MMOs, I think the world would collectively rejoice.

    Most of your arguments are just bashing on people with no basis for those opinions.
    What,do you really believe a free game will actually attract a crowd of people as involved and pleasant as opposed to a P2P where the players are so interested they're willing to pay and support the game?
    Also people tend to respect what they payed for,when there's no money to hold them back,a lot of unpleasant players will act out.
    They will care less about getting banned,it's free anyway,or they can make a free account and try to troll on that one.
    This is just 1 example of the many bad sides of F2P.
    Last edited by mmocba4f7a59a4; 2012-08-09 at 08:36 PM.

  15. #575
    Quote Originally Posted by Forsedar View Post
    QoL features are content updates. They introduced 1.3 which gave us quite a bit. It redefined augmenting, allowing us to min/Max properly. It came out with LFG and rated war zones. There were many legacy updates and class overhauls. If that's not a content update then I don't know what one is.
    It appears that you actually do not know what a content update is. A content update adds content. Rated WZs are not new content (well, it depends on who you ask, but since they're just the same WZs with a rating attached, I wouldn't call them new content). LFG is a feature, not content. Class updates, augmenting updates, etc, are all mechanical tweaks/fixes and not content. 1.3 was not a content patch.

  16. #576
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    Pulled out of my ass?By that you mean I made it up?
    So if my opinion isn't backed up by statistics and scientific studies to you it's worth nothing?
    Therein lies the problem. You need to preface this as your opinion, or at the very least qualify your statements as opinions.

    You didn't do that. You made a lot of statements that look like they're trying to be facts and some that are trying to be predictions. You framed your entire rant as though it was a statement of irrefutable fact. That's bad form.

    It would have been fine if you'd bothered to put any facts in it.

    Well welcome to an mmo fansite.
    Here we use our experience,our expectations,our personal views on the world to form an opinion.
    Each one thinks what he posts is right,and we tend to debate what's truly right.
    So far you're only blaming me for not being able to accurately predict the future or whatever you view as ''not pulled out of my ass''.
    I actually summed up all your posts towards me in that last 1 sentence,do you now understand why your posts are empty?
    Observational comments about your poor writing habits and broken logic are not empty. If you're here expecting a debate about something, you'd better be equipped to handle it. So far, your first attempt is an abject failure.
    Last edited by Profyrion; 2012-08-09 at 08:46 PM.
    ^ The above should be taken with two grains of salt and a fistful of "chill the F* out".

  17. #577
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    Quote Originally Posted by Profyrion View Post
    There's literally nothing to discuss, as you've yet to state anything of substance that wasn't pulled, seemingly, out of your ass.

    No offense. You made a terrible argument. There's no rebuttal other than to say what an empty, pointless statement it was.
    My Wall of text didn't survive.
    Shortly,I'm wrong cause I made this all up?
    Well no,me being the source of all these claims does not necessarily make me wrong.
    In fact you said I was wrong without posting any arguments,so you also pulled out of your behind that I was wrong because I made this up.
    Does that mean you consider yourself wrong since you made your ''wrong claim'' up and this makes me right?


    edit:
    Reading your reply to my misfortuned Wall of text,I must say you don't have the right to judge me when you apparently descended to my level when you answered my ''bad rant''.If you were not (dare I be rude) an hypocrite you would have pointed out to me that I was posting in a bad manner and you would have countered my arguments ignoring the ''bad'' setting I've apparently put them in.That way you would have been righteous and maybe a century closer to calling one my posts an abject failure.
    Last edited by mmocba4f7a59a4; 2012-08-09 at 08:54 PM.

  18. #578
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    My Wall of text didn't survive.
    Shortly,I'm wrong cause I made this all up?
    Well no,me being the source of all these claims does not necessarily make me wrong.
    In fact you said I was wrong without posting any arguments,so you also pulled out of your behind that I was wrong because I made this up.
    Does that mean you consider yourself wrong since you made your ''wrong claim'' up and this makes me right?


    edit:
    Reading your reply to my misfortuned Wall of text,I must say you don't have the right to judge me when you apparently descended to my level when you answered my ''bad rant''.If you were not (dare I be rude) an hypocrite you would have pointed out to me that I was posting in a bad manner and you would have countered my arguments ignoring the ''bad'' setting I've apparently put them in.That way you would have been righteous and maybe a century closer to calling one my posts an abject failure.
    I have yet to use the word "wrong" in this thread.

    Your post was so disjointed, so poorly supported, and so wildly irrational/illogical that it did not warrant discussion. If you have a point you're trying to make (and I suspect there is one hidden in there somewhere), you're free to make it at any time.
    Last edited by Profyrion; 2012-08-09 at 08:59 PM. Reason: Edited to include quote.
    ^ The above should be taken with two grains of salt and a fistful of "chill the F* out".

  19. #579
    The Unstoppable Force Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post


    What,do you really believe a free game will actually attract a crowd of people as involved and pleasant as opposed to a P2P where the players are so interested they're willing to pay and support the game?
    Also people tend to respect what they payed for,when there's no money to hold them back,a lot of unpleasant players will act out.
    They will care less about getting banned,it's free anyway,or they can make a free account and try to troll on that one.
    This is just 1 example of the many bad sides of F2P.
    Do you currently play an F2P game? Have you interacted with the commnuity of that game by asking for help, running dungeons, or PVP of some sort? If not, then like the Prof said you are just making claims without support. It's not even about being factual or needing to state it's your opinion. It's about the fact that you gave no personal weght to your claim.

    So either you don't play them and have no input other than conjecture, or you do and we'd like to hear your experience. Let me give you an example, that happens to be true, and let it be a guide on how to support your opinions.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I have played and still play LotRO. I have played for free, purchased points, and subbed from time to time. I can honestly say I've never had a bad experience with the people playing. In fact, almost every person I have interacted with has been helpful and friendly. I have overall enjoyed ever bit of my F2P experience with that game since it switched in 2010.

    While your personal experience might be vastly different, I will disagree with your points entirely because of my anectdotal evidence.

  20. #580
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadylol View Post
    Back in January/2012, I predicted that this would probably happen eventually (sooner than later though). I'm not the only one who possessed that foresight, but I speak only for myself when I say that I am not surprised at all, to hear them now talking about it, and likely making plans for it

    I also think it might actually be good for SWTOR, to go free to play. With their current number of subscribers, it makes sense that they're looking for ways to make the game more financially viable, and other titles have proven that going (or even starting in some cases) free to play can be very profitable. A free to play transition has also been known to dramatically boost revenue for a couple of other MMOs that weren't as successful as people had hoped, such as Dungeons and Dragons Online (DDO), and Lord of the Rings Online (LOTRO). I feel that EA/BioWare could make more money with free to play + cash shop, than they are currently
    Unfortunatly I knew SWTOR may (or most likely will go) F2P even before launch. It's launch was great, but could not hold players in. I did warn Bioware on forums this will happen, they did not listen.

    They pulled a SOE on SWTOR fans. How soe make CU and NGE system on swg, and not listening to it's players, Bioware did that again. They just looked like they were "listening", but only posts that does not matter entirely. SWTOR was too WoW in Star wars skin, and guess what? I was dead right.

    I do not think F2P model will help them in a least bit. Their head Developer is from the head department from customer service, and by that, Bioware (or EA) hired the wrong guys to make SWTOR, they also hired the guys who brought Jump to the lightspeed for SWG (which ended up losing subs upon release). SWTOR is set to shutting down, it is laughable really, game spent million dollars on USELESS voice overs, and the game goes F2P (or shutting down) in 11 months, not even a full year. Yeah they said F2P is set at November. But As much as i love SW (I still play SWG), swg was way more successful then SWTOR.

    The question now is, will the free to play model going to saved the game? Or will it set to the depths of MMO Graveyard.

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