ArenaNet has made something special!

[Fencers]

Developers desire to use it because of the success of WoW, however.

And again, as I said: Regardless of whether or not they did it well or poorly, SWTOR has a bimodal raiding endgame. The fact that, in going free, they expect you to pay to access their form of raiding, but give you the stories for free, speaks volumes about what they internally believe the focus of their game to be.

Yes and I said only one of them was in the so-called "gameplay model" of Warcraft. The subtler point being that ignoring the finer aspects of gameplay in other games is hypocritical. As the critique can be applied equally to GW2 and be no less superficial for several broad systems.

There really aren't a lot of MMOs in the "WoW style". It's kind of a myth. As many add their own spin or departures all the same as GW2. Making none of them [GW2 incld.] "anything special".

[Dodrin]

Yup, everything has been done before. No game is truly "unique" anymore. What makes a game "unique" nowadays is how well they meld different things together, and how polished it is. That's sort of where gaming is today.

[mag07]

Encouraging people to cooperate simply out of fear of not being able to find a group is not what I call good community-building and cooperative gameplay.

It was not the automated tool that started breaking down the community in WoW, it was the way it was implemented, and the very systems that make up WoW which work against community building.

Back in TBC, "cooperating" with other people took far too much time and effort for the sake of a simple dungeon run, when I should have just been able to form a group and run in. People take things far too seriously and just need to relax and have some fun.
Hoping that GW2 does not turn out the way TBC was, very much so. People act like it was so much better before LFD, but it really wasn't.

Funny, that is why we have various laws in real life, as way too many people are simply unable to grasp a concept of any sort of ethics or code of conduct. If you know there are consequences, you think twice before acting. Social pressure is necessary in any environment simply to keep certain individuals or groups inline. Would you really rather spent hours a day with a group of twats, or chilled out peeps having fun? As I said before, if you consider 'cooperating' too time consuming, then there are single player games out there, quite a few, as engaging as WoW once was. No more pricey considering the sub. But don't blame people for trying to enjoy what is supposed to be a social experience, via human interactions not UI clicking. On a more humorous note - the game is called Guild Wars, not Pug Wars - one can somewhat assume being a part of one has some benefits to it, like not having to worry about finding players for group content - but you got to give something to get something back.

[Fencers]

Yup, everything has been done before. No game is truly "unique" anymore. What makes a game "unique" nowadays is how well they meld different things together, and how polished it is. That's sort of where gaming is today.

It's not so much about uniqueness or lack of originality. Execution is superior to both. Just the general, "Oh those other games are all like this!" but "My game is precious!"- type speech. Not strictly a Guild Wars 2 phenomenon.

Willfully choosing to ignore the granularity of design in SWTOR [example here] is about as surface-y as someone coming in here to shout about the GW2 DEs being just like Warhammer/Rift PQ or obscured WOW quests. It's often a disservice to the game really.

[DrakeWurrum]

if you consider 'cooperating' too time consuming

The problem is simply that it shouldn't take such efforts to cooperate with your fellow player. WoW's systems inherently work to benefit individualism over the group, despite being a game that requires being in a group to succeed.

GW2 is different here - almost the exact opposite, in fact, in the sense that GW2's systems inherently work to benefit group play, despite being a game that doesn't require being in a group (outside of dungeons and sPvP, that is). From the fact that there are no dedicated roles and that everybody can heal themselves, to the simple fact that everybody gets their own separate loot window.

In WoW, I'd go out of my way to avoid people simply because they impacted my gaming experience in negative ways. More people showing up, regardless of faction, made it harder to complete a quest because we're all competing for the quest objective - and Blizz seems to be fully aware of this and intentionally cause this. Oh sure, they could group with me and we could work together, but nobody actually wants to do that.
In GW2, I got no such negative impact from other people showing up. Somebody else showed up in a sight, I'd think "Oh hey, thanks!" And then suddenly we're playing off each other's combo fields, among other things. Don't even have to communicate, we just do our thing and kick some ass.

[papajohn4]

the game is so different that no one really knows how he will feel after 1-2 months. Especially the people that don't like pvp and they are interested mostly on pve. Sure, running around and do dynamic events is fun but for how long? Maybe it will be for years, maybe for some months, nobody knows. And since there is no gear treadmills and you are not after anything most people may lose interest. I know I will. People say, you have to play for fun not for gear, you have to change the way that you look gaming, e.t.c. But have they did it already?and how do they know of it? I can talk all day and say how fun it will be to do something, but before I do it, everything is just words in the air. Also fun is subjective...

Will it be the combat system?I played tera and I can't say I have impressed of the action combat style. Sure it was fun, but as fun as the traditional combat style. People just go so crazy over things that they have never really experienced. I really wish you all have great fun for long long time, and I wish for myself to like it cause I will not gona buy MoP and there is no other MMO right now that can entertain me anymore...What I do in games is create many alts, have all crafting professions and leveling my alts by using crafting professions and gear them every few levels with top armor. At the end level I try to get them the best gear I can and once I do this, I switch to an alt. This is how I play the game and this is what keeps me busy and interested about the game.

I will try to change my gaming philosophy, I will really try to like gw2 and I will start with all good intentions, but I am not so optimistic like all of you :P

[mag07]

The problem is simply that it shouldn't take such efforts to cooperate with your fellow player. WoW's systems inherently work to benefit individualism over the group, despite being a game that requires being in a group to succeed.

GW2 is different here - almost the exact opposite, in fact, in the sense that GW2's systems inherently work to benefit group play, despite being a game that doesn't require being in a group (outside of dungeons and sPvP, that is). From the fact that there are no dedicated roles and doesn't have to rely on any person other than himself, to the simple fact that everybody gets their own separate loot window.

I understand what you're saying, what I have an issue with is the 'effort' part. Maybe I was super lucky in my online life for the last 7 years, but I have rarely experienced serious group finding issues. Granted I tend to be nice to everyone, by default, until they step on my toes, or maybe it is just that I never considered spamming a trade macro a few times 'effort'. If I was unlucky, and simply could not find a tank/healer, I'd move onto doing something else and try later.

My point is, there is no time limit within which you must find a group - noone in the guild, no friends online, noone interested? I move on to something else and try some other time. I consider games an entertainment, not a chore. I have a family, a full time job, I play regularly but as time allows it. It hasn't stopped me from successfully raiding in WoW or playing any other games with friends. Can't find a group in few minutes? Logout, do something that needs to be done at some point in the future, giving me even more time to come back and play later on, hopefully when more people are around interested in doing what I would like to do. Getting frustrated with idiots? Log-out, go read a book, watch TV, have a smoke, whatever you like. Come back later. The lovely thing about Guild Wars is, it is not a race - realms first? Who cares. I admire the people that have the skill to down bosses a week after they are out, in previous tier gear, but it really does not mean I need to try to do that, too if I don't have the time to raid 12 hours straight. Effort is at work, often at home, dealing with your kids, in-game it's pleasure - and the less opportunities for people to hide behind anonymity masks, the more likely the experience will be fun not stressful/

[DrakeWurrum]

maybe it is just that I never considered spamming a trade macro a few times 'effort'.

Took way more effort than that, even after the group was formed and you were going through the dungeon.

And I really need to mention this, because I keep seeing people in this thread talking about spamming chat. ANet seriously needs to make it more visible, but:
In the friends window, there is a tab that specifically lists people who have marked themselves as LFG for their online status, across your entire server.

[mag07]

Took way more effort than that, even after the group was formed and you were going through the dungeon.

And I really need to mention this, because I keep seeing people in this thread talking about spamming chat. ANet seriously needs to make it more visible, but:
In the friends window, there is a tab that specifically lists people who have marked themselves as LFG for their online status, across your entire server.

Mentioned that, peeps tend to not read entire threats lol.

As for more effort lets see

1. check in guild - noone interested
2. check friend's list - noone interested
3. bargain in guild - I'll tank next one for you on my alt if you help me do this one - noone interested or capable?
4. trade spam time - few minutes later you either have a group or you don't, if it's the latter, move on to other things, if they happen to be bank sorting, ah, then keep on spamming, if you're out of the city, try later. Got a crap group? Say sorry this won't work, bye. Try later. 10 mins tops - don't stress yourself

It will only become frustrating if you allow it to be.

[DrakeWurrum]

Am I really one of the only people who remembers what TBC was actually like? I'd be flying around doing dailies, and every minute or two would push my /LFG chat spam macro, hoping desperately for somebody to see it. I wasn't a tank or a healer, so I didn't get instant invites, and DPS wouldn't group together so that they're all "LF2M, need tank and healer" because that was just worth laughing at. Tanks/healers would typically pass those up right away for groups that already had the other half of their job. If you were a tank, you looked for a group with a healer, and vice versa.

You can get on a soapbox and be all "You don't have to do a dungeon now, you can go do something else, because it's entertainment! Go outside and go read a book!" all you want, but the fact of the matter is that if I want to run a dungeon right now, I should be able to go run a dungeon right now. (also worth noting: it's extremely condescending to assume that I don't already do those things) I shouldn't have to spend 30 minutes doing something else trying to get a group to form, with just the right group structure for a successful run. You shouldn't have to do something boring before you get to do something fun.

I could understand if I was trying to build some professional/serious team of people to run content at a competitive level, but I'm not looking to participate in the Olympics, I'm looking to participate at the amateur/local soccer team level and just have some fun. Maybe I'd be willing to participate at the state level, but I don't really care to push beyond the point of it being fun.

WoW's implementation didn't do that much to really fix the problem because DPS still way outnumber tanks and healers, but LFD still was a vast improvement. You just need to be a bit more tolerant of your fellow man and actually just run the freaking dungeon. When running LFD, I see people being assholes, and you know what?
I keep my mouth shut. Do my job. Don't listen to people bitch and moan. And I'm in and out of a dungeon in less than 30 minutes, with people praising my skill. Without having ever said one word.

The tricky part is just waiting for the queue to pop.

The reason the community fell apart, and the reason people started idling in cities for queues, was because all that "work" was really the only reason for the community, and suddenly you don't have to waste time flying around in the world doing shit you don't actually want to do. That all happened because WoW was specifically designed with all the fun content in very specific places, and queues streamlined access to those places.

If Blizzard puts more fun content out into the world, and finds ways to make the community actually want to interact, rather than forcing it on them, then those problems will be addressed - removing the LFD from WoW wouldn't do that, anymore than not having an LFD in WoW would prevent it.

[Zalavaaris]

I'm surprise that you being a avid WoW player, that you actually gave gw2 a try with a open mined and not just the topical [I log in then I log out , Game = FAIL] I'm saying that because I find it hard for many wow player to break free from the wow indoctrination.

Im pretty much the same way as the OP and am also an avid WoW player.

[mag07]

Am I really one of the only people who remembers what TBC was actually like? I'd be flying around doing dailies, and every few minutes would push my /LFG chat spam macro, hoping desperately for somebody to see it. I wasn't a tank or a healer, so I didn't get instant invites.

You can get on a soapbox and be all "You don't have to do a dungeon now, you can go do something else, because it's entertainment!" all you want, but the fact of the matter is that if I want to run a dungeon right now, I should be able to go run a dungeon right now. I shouldn't have to spend 30 minutes doing something else trying to get a group to form.

Why not? What guarantee have you got now that LFG/LFR is out there, that you will breeze through the dungeon, as you assume you are entitled to, right then and then? You can run into pricks that will ruin the run just because that is their idea of fun, whether you picked them up manually or via a tool.

You appear to prefer, not to meet or interact too much with people, which has a high chance of facilitating future smooth runs in good company, in favor of instant access to a twat lottery.

Don't think I'll ever grasp why.

[DrakeWurrum]

Why not?

Because it's not fun. If this is a game, the goal of which is to have fun, it should be fun.

---------- Post added 2012-08-13 at 06:14 PM ----------

You can run into pricks

And... your point is?

They only ruin the run if you let them. I've run into shitty people, and I've run into good people, but I've always had a smooth run.

[Baracuda]

I also played the first hour of Age of Conan and realized after that hour that I was going to be going back to wow, Age of Conan was a horrible experience right away.

GW2 was an awesome experience, and let me remind you that my first hour didn't even scratch the surface of this game. It was a rushed experience because I had a limited amount of time to try and explore and get into some combat.

But I did walk away from that first hour of being amazed...and this is only the beginning area! Do you understand that the game will only get better and better as the difficulty increases? The dungeons, the storyline etc..I mean like I said in my original post, I am blown out of the water by this game.

As far as someone in here saying about being confused in combat with the auto attacking. Someone might be able to a for sure answer, but there might be an option to turn on enemy names or health bars to always show. This might help eliminate some confusion.

The first DE i played i was just amazed at the amount of enemies everyone was fighting, it was really quite fun. Sometimes you may just need to take a step back an access what is going on.

Again coming from a person who has played WoW since Vanilla (off and on) and I actually did find some aspects of the game to be fun, this game has something magical going on with it.

You really need to lower your expectations, mate. Even if GW2 is a good game you won't be able to enjoy it for long if you over hype/praise it.

[Shostie]

Meh, the PvE is sub par in GW2. I know a lot of people jumping into GW2 have never tried WAR or RIFT. Once you spend a couple of days in those 2 games, the "WOW OMFG" factor of public quests drops dramatically. I spent over 40 hours of playtime in the final BWE GW2 event, and came away with nothing really great to say about PvE.

I disagree. I never played WAR, but I played Rift for several months in a hardcore raiding guild. I found Rift's "dynamic" content to be really dull and grindy. Every rift was basically the same thing, just different elements. Raid rifts were the only semi-interesting rifts, and once you outgeared those, they were a joke, too.

Guild Wars 2 does a much, much better job of delivering content. Content might be repeated, but it doesn't feel as grindy because of how the stories behind events are delivered.

[Miah]

I disagree. I never played WAR, but I played Rift for several months in a hardcore raiding guild. I found Rift's "dynamic" content to be really dull and grindy. Every rift was basically the same thing, just different elements. Raid rifts were the only semi-interesting rifts, and once you outgeared those, they were a joke, too.

Guild Wars 2 does a much, much better job of delivering content. Content might be repeated, but it doesn't feel as grindy because of how the stories behind events are delivered.

GW2 and Warhammer are almost identical in concept, War hammer called it PQ, GW2 calls it Dynamic something or other. In Warhammer, the strong contributors got rewards ( or better odds on dice?) and in GW2 everyone gets rewarded no matter how much you contribute. The WvW is exactly the same as well, even down to them pouring oil on you while you set up battering rams. In SWToR you had companions that you had sex with and ultimately could marry, they also did all of your farming and leveled your professions, and it was called the "same as WoW" even with Huttball, something never before seen in PvP.

[DarthTenore]

I disagree. I never played WAR, but I played Rift for several months in a hardcore raiding guild. I found Rift's "dynamic" content to be really dull and grindy. Every rift was basically the same thing, just different elements. Raid rifts were the only semi-interesting rifts, and once you outgeared those, they were a joke, too.

Guild Wars 2 does a much, much better job of delivering content. Content might be repeated, but it doesn't feel as grindy because of how the stories behind events are delivered.

GW2 wont be a gear dependent game. That will turn away many players I think. There are going to be many players looking for the better + items as possible. It might happen in PvE but PVP everyone is on the same level and the only distinction would be skill and what skills and traits you use.

Content is always repeated yet in a different skin. typical of any quest that has been done in a RPG. I have started 3 Norn Characters and even though I have done the events and Hear area before, It never felt stale.

[Shostie]

GW2 and Warhammer are almost identical in concept, War hammer called it PQ, GW2 calls it Dynamic something or other. In Warhammer, the strong contributors got rewards ( or better odds on dice?) and in GW2 everyone gets rewarded no matter how much you contribute. The WvW is exactly the same as well, even down to them pouring oil on you while you set up battering rams. In SWToR you had companions that you had sex with and ultimately could marry, they also did all of your farming and leveled your professions, and it was called the "same as WoW" even with Huttball, something never before seen in PvP.

Identical in concept? Then I guess Guild Wars 2 is destined to fail.

[apepi]

The one thing that really impressed me is how they have done the characters. You only have just a few abilities(then other mmos) that you can use but the selection is wonderful. I kinda feel like it is what blizzard is trying to do in mop but so much better. Like for instance the healing abilities, you have about 6(?) choices to choose from, and each is great. One is simply not better then the other but each have their own niche. Each class seems very well thought out, but how they have their system set up I can see balancing can be very easy.

[Miah]

Identical in concept? Then I guess Guild Wars 2 is destined to fail.

Well considering Warhammer had a good camera......probably.

Warhammer failed for the same reason all other MMOs "fail", people don't have their 10 maxed out level 70s/80s/85s, Curse playing their game for them, and a terribly outdated game that plays on outdated computers.

People are still playing Warhammer, I played it until Aion came out and everyone ran over there. I also still Play SWToR since they finally merged servers and its a lot of fun even though it supposedly failed as well.

Everyone will run to GW2 and the same thing will happen to it, that happen to all MMOs.......people that don't enjoy making dozens of alts will play it occasionally when they get bored. If they Fix the camera issue I plan on doing a lot of PvP while still doing PvP in SWTor as well. I dont think the camera is Bad in WvW because theres no "tight" areas to berserker the camera. It will be nice to play Warhammer again under a different name