Dragon Ball Z Fan Thread!

[OrcsRLame]

freiza did blow up vegeta with the same attack he used on namek

planet vegeta was likly much larger than earth since it had 10 times the gravity

both vegeta on bug planet and broly r non cannon

Well, you should know by now I disagree with the non-canon argument. Overseen and worked on by Toriyama = canon to me.

[Deleted]

@Laurcus, well DB GT/other extras creators have clearly shown time and again they do not know the difference between "universe" and "galaxy"... so huge gain of salt here, like MASSIVE grain. Heck, it's probably so big it'd turn into a black hole !

@
GennGreymane : fair point.
But still, using the same pin to prick a balloon 10 times bigger gives no information on the relation between the prick power and the ballon explosion.
Case to point:
on Namek his attack was used when we has in 4th form. And he missed. On Vegeta he was in 1st form. (i think the only numbers we have on freiza are 1st form = 500k power, 2nd= over one million. And nothing on 3rd and 4th)
By all logic Namek's attack should have been leaps and bonds more powerful than Vegeta's (the planete, i mean freiza attack on planet Vegeta... damn that name!). And yet it only blew up after "5min". DBZ lol-physics...
Heck, if anything, it only supports the idea that the attack raw power does not blow the planet up directly, but does something else like tickling some huge bomb that's in every planet core and have that then blows it up. Idk lol.

[OrcsRLame]

@Laurcus, well DB GT/other extras creators have clearly shown time and again they do not know the difference between "universe" and "galaxy"... so huge gain of salt here, like MASSIVE grain. Heck, it's probably so big it'd turn into a black hole !

@
GennGreymane : fair point.
But still, using the same pin to prick a balloon 10 times bigger gives no information on the relation between the prick power and the ballon explosion.
Case to point:
on Namek his attack was used when we has in 4th form. And he missed. On Vegeta he was in 1st form. (i think the only numbers we have on freiza are 1st form = 500k power, 2nd= over one million. And nothing on 3rd and 4th)
By all logic Namek's attack should have been leaps and bonds more powerful than Vegeta's (the planete, i mean freiza attack on planet Vegeta... damn that name!). And yet it only blew up after "5min". DBZ lol-physics...
Heck, if anything, it only supports the idea that the attack raw power does not blow the planet up directly, but does something else like tickling some huge bomb that's in every planet core and have that then blows it up. Idk lol.

Actually you're basing your points on 2 misconceptions.

1. Frieza's power level for his final form is well known, 120 million. His first form was 530k.
2. Frieza did not try to blow up the planet in one blast. After the 5 minutes are up and the planet hasn't exploded Goku mocks Frieza saying that he held back out of fear. "You couldn't go through with it after all could you? I don't blame you. Destroying us both so that I don't win isn't any way to fight. It's just another way of giving up."

Also, another example of planets being blown up via raw power. Kid Buu. He blows them up like they're nothing. And that doesn't involve any kind of targeted attack, it's just a massive explosion. And that is only a fraction of the power used by Vegito in his fight against Super Buu, as we know from interviews with Akira Toriyama that the fusion earrings multiply the power of the users together. And considering Goku was on par with Kid Buu... yeah. So the principle is still consistent, even throwing out movies and GT.

[Deleted]

1) is that so ? i don't remember reading that in the manga, but heck you're probably right. So Namek blast could have been up to 5 times as powerful as Vegeta's
2) well, that's Goku talking. How does he know ?
Even assuming he's right... Heck, even assuming Namek's blast was weaker than Vegeta's. It still leaves the part of Vegeta being 10 times the gravity so arguably 10 times as massive as Namek (which is ~1G).

Heck, i actually agree with you on how silly overpowerful they get by the end (or even before that).
I mean, if we consider things in an obvective way. Realistically, what happens when Goku farts ? Does he have to aim it to the sky so it doesn't blow up the planete, or at least a continent or two ?
Also, what is it with floors. By all means DBZ/GT/ect characters should be so powerful, their body be so damn hard they shouldn't get fased by going trough a mountain or two, and even less being smashed into the floor.
I actually know a strength bodybuilder that can bend iron rods (IRL, so relatively small ones, nothing anime-like) and he has problems controlling his hands strengh. Needlework is quite hard for him (laught all you want, asking you mother to mend your socks... sucks major time!), and i have given up on trying to teach him how to hold chopsticks in sushi bars. Seriously, it's ridiculous how he breaks them.
Goku should be breaking chairs just by looking at them ! God forbid he ever sneezes in a random SS form!

Heck, what Dragon Ball most ridiculous exemple ? Not only does Picolo Jr actually destroys the moon one handed when he was barely at 1k power (Gohan training before vegeta), but the moon had already been destroyed by someone else by that point, someone far far weaker than picolo at that point. Remember whom ?

[OrcsRLame]

1) is that so ? i don't remember reading that in the manga, but heck you're probably right. So Namek blast could have been up to 5 times as powerful as Vegeta's
2) well, that's Goku talking. How does he know ?
Even assuming he's right... Heck, even assuming Namek's blast was weaker than Vegeta's. It still leaves the part of Vegeta being 10 times the gravity so arguably 10 times as massive as Namek (which is ~1G).

Heck, i actually agree with you on how silly overpowerful they get by the end (or even before that).
I mean, if we consider things in an obvective way. Realistically, what happens when Goku farts ? Does he have to aim it to the sky so it doesn't blow up the planete, or at least a continent or two ?
Also, what is it with floors. By all means DBZ/GT/ect characters should be so powerful, their body be so damn hard they shouldn't get fased by going trough a mountain or two, and even less being smashed into the floor.
I actually know a strength bodybuilder that can bend iron rods (IRL, so relatively small ones, nothing anime-like) and he has problems controlling his hands strengh. Needlework is quite hard for him (laught all you want, asking you mother to mend your socks... sucks major time!), and i have given up on trying to teach him how to hold chopsticks in sushi bars. Seriously, it's ridiculous how he breaks them.
Goku should be breaking chairs just by looking at them ! God forbid he ever sneezes in a random SS form!

Heck, what Dragon Ball most ridiculous exemple ? Not only does Picolo Jr actually destroys the moon one handed when he was barely at 1k power (Gohan training before vegeta), but the moon had already been destroyed by someone else by that point, someone far far weaker than picolo at that point. Remember whom ?

Yes, I'm well aware that Roshi destroys the moon with a power level of 180 in the 21st World Martial Arts Tournament. Btw, the Frieza power level thing is from Daizenshuu 7, the official guidebook, not the manga.

As for what you said about control. This is actually mentioned quite extensively. Remember when Goku and Gohan are dicking around as Super Saiyans just before the Cell games? They mention having to control their power several times in those episodes, such as the scene where they break a bunch of glasses and a table. From what we can tell, their power is very selective and controllable. The reason they don't destroy the planet by farting is because they choose not to.

And I'm not gonna second guess an angry Super Saiyan when it comes to reading his opponent. I trust Goku on that one.

[Xuvial]

Yup, it is shown multiple times how much extreme control they have to exert on their bodies especially during "peacetime" so they don't end up knocking down buildings or killing people by hi-five'ing them.

Remember Goku when he came back from Yardrat? He knocked Chichi through a wall AND a tree with just a casual tap on the shoulder. An impact like that would've definitely killed an average person...but we ARE talking Chichi here, she has been through chi training and was a fighter back in DB :P

This probably the main reason so many characters have multiple forms, to help exert a greater amount of control and fit in with normal people (or less able people). Frieza mentioned staying in his base form to "contain" his power, otherwise he'd end up killing people left right and center around him (not that he doesn't anyway :P).

[GennGreymane]

Let us discuss the legendary super saiyan transformation

I theorize that it is caused due to a special mutation and begins as a normal super saiyan form, but instead of reaching the second level. the legendary form and any form that could come after occur instead.

I think that the legendary super saiyan is greater than super saiyan 2 and I believe i got a few others to agree, even stronger then super perfect cell.

How much more powerful is what i guess. Would legendary ss3 (which is in dbz hoshi) be that much greater than a regular ss3? even at gokus lvl?

also what kind of multiplier could the legendary forms be. Broly was born at 10000, but is never shown as powerful in his normal form only in his weaker super saiyan (purple haired) state

also is his normal super saiyan form the same x50?

[OrcsRLame]

Let us discuss the legendary super saiyan transformation

I theorize that it is caused due to a special mutation and begins as a normal super saiyan form, but instead of reaching the second level. the legendary form and any form that could come after occur instead.

I think that the legendary super saiyan is greater than super saiyan 2 and I believe i got a few others to agree, even stronger then super perfect cell.

How much more powerful is what i guess. Would legendary ss3 (which is in dbz hoshi) be that much greater than a regular ss3? even at gokus lvl?

also what kind of multiplier could the legendary forms be. Broly was born at 10000, but is never shown as powerful in his normal form only in his weaker super saiyan (purple haired) state

also is his normal super saiyan form the same x50?

My theory is that Legendary Super Saiyan is caused by having a tail upon first transforming into a Super Saiyan. I also believe Super Saiyan 4 to actually be an evolution of that form, which would technically make it Legendary Super Saiyan 2, not a continued evolution of the previous 3 Super Saiyan states.

There isn't much evidence for this theory, it's mostly my headcanon. There is a little though. There is no mention of cutting off a Saiyan's tail being a viable tactic before Yajirobe cuts off Vegeta's tail, even counting any random stories by Vegeta and such. Thus, I find it highly likely that any previous Super Saiyans, such as the one that destroyed the original Saiyan homeworld 1000 years ago, reached Super Saiyan with their tails. Since that Super Saiyan is known to have possessed the Legendary form, the tail being the main factor just makes sense to me. Old Kai was also aware of SS4, so once again, the whole thing just kind of fits to me.

Oh, here's some fun stuff about Old Kai. He is over 75 million years old, and for much of his life he was imprisoned in the Z Sword. The "Original Super Saiyan" that destroyed the Saiyan homeworld was from 1000 years ago. That means he's not actually the first Super Saiyan, as they must have existed for 10s of millions of years at least, likely making them some of the oldest beings in the universe. Saiyans also must have had working space travel before their planet was destroyed, (or they can breathe in space) as they hadn't yet met the Arcosians, so they didn't have Planet Trade tech. That means they had to migrate to Planet Plant on their own.

I don't think it's actually possible with the information we have to determine how powerful LSS is. We don't know Broly's base power level at the time of his first battle with Goku and the Z Warriors, thus we don't have enough data to know for sure. I don't believe the transformation is inherently more powerful than Super Perfect Cell. I believe it was Broly's Zenkai that he got from losing to Goku that pushed him past the level of SS2. I think if Broly from his first movie fought Super Perfect Cell he would have been greased, but I think Broly after the first movie was stronger than Cell.

I see no reason why his normal Super Saiyan form should be any different, unless there is information that says otherwise.

[GennGreymane]

Im not so sure, I think even first movie broly could have been stronger than super perfect cell


it took a lot to defeat broly. I think ss2 is only double ss1

it took 4 super saiyans and a super namek... and a meteor to defeat broly. It took 1 super saiyan 2, a blast from vegeta, and some attacks from the much weaker, tien, krillin, and yamcha to kill super perfect cell

movie 2 broly is no doubt stronger

[iadamson]

Good point on the Broly stronger then Cell debate.

The Legendary Super Saiyan form likely stems from a mutation, prophecy, mysticism or something like that.
Based on Hoshi/ Video games it becomes apparent that (perhaps not canon wise) that Legendary Super Saiyan is a separate transformation branch just like Great Ape is.

The Branches
1 - Great Ape
2 - Super Saiyan 1 - 2 -3
3 - Legendary SSJ - Legendary SSJ 3

Also at some point the branches 1 & 2 converge a'la golden ape and ssj 4.

In theory I suppose Broly could have regular Super Saiyan 1-3 and legendary super saiyan 1-3. However it starts to get fuzzy and slightly more complicated once forms start converging. Legendary great ape? legendary ss4?

Legendary SSJ is def stronger then regular ssj and its at least stronger then 4 regular super saiyans and a super namek.
At minimum Legendary SS 3 would be stronger then 4 regular ss3's (at minimum) which is strong as fuark.

I would imagine LSSJ3 could stomp ssj3 Goku, Ultimate Gohan, ssj3 Gotenks, with relative ease. If that paints a picture.

[Ðemonhuntr]

Is it ever explained why Broly's SS form has blue hair? maybe that means his SS is different too. Also in the new special doesnt Bardock have a tail and should therefore have gone legendary SS?

[iadamson]

Is it ever explained why Broly's SS form has blue hair? maybe that means his SS is different too. Also in the new movie doesnt Bardock have a tail and should therefore have gone legendary SS?

It's only blue in the first movie, its assumed because of the power restriction device to dull his power, and prevent the legendary form.

In the second coming he has a regular super saiyan form with golden hair because he destroyed the power restriction device in the first movie.

As for Bardock being a legendary super saiyan, Canon wise, doesn't make clear sense as with most dbz movies.

The original super saiyan was depicted in the anime as being a golden great ape (although in a silhouette). Which obviously was not Bardock b/c he only goes regular super saiyan. Also The original super saiyan destroyed the original planet vegeta. Bardock is sent into the past on the second planet vegeta, at the time hes sent into its known as planet plant. Now unless he went to the original planet vegeta and went great ape and destroyed it. He's not the original LSSJ. Granted Vegeta's recall of the legend's appearance could be misinformed as he did not exist 1000 years ago, to visually witness it.

Now if you take the movie version of Broly being a current day LSSJ. Bardock was for sure not a LSSJ.

However it could explain how Frieza's family/ blood line was aware or feared the saiyans and the legend of a super saiyan. But not the same legend that vegeta and other saiyans pass down.

Having a tail and going super saiyan doesn't grant the LSSJ form.
As Goku has one in GT and can go super saiyan but cant go Broly style.
However, can go Golden Ape, which is like vegeta's telling of the story.

[Ðemonhuntr]

IMO Broly is just a freak of nature hehe

but the Bardock special does take away credit of Laurcus theory on tail = LSS

[OrcsRLame]

IMO Broly is just a freak of nature hehe

but the Bardock special does take away credit of Laurcus theory on tail = LSS

That's true.

---------- Post added 2012-08-17 at 05:45 AM ----------

Im not so sure, I think even first movie broly could have been stronger than super perfect cell


it took a lot to defeat broly. I think ss2 is only double ss1

it took 4 super saiyans and a super namek... and a meteor to defeat broly. It took 1 super saiyan 2, a blast from vegeta, and some attacks from the much weaker, tien, krillin, and yamcha to kill super perfect cell

movie 2 broly is no doubt stronger

Well, only Goku was actually a Super Saiyan when Broly was defeated in the first movie. Everyone else had the shit kicked out of them so badly that by the time they gave their energy they were in base form.

[GennGreymane]

they may have been in base form but it was all of them for a great while at full power fighting broly and broly just had to laugh at them


it took the right punch into the right place with all of their energy combined with the help of a meteor to defeat broly and not even kill him

---------- Post added 2012-08-17 at 03:33 PM ----------

[rad586]

[Ðemonhuntr]

Genn somehow i dont believe Goku really believes in family values hehe.

Anyways back to Broly, One of the reasons his PL is so hard to gauge is because of "when" its supposed to happen if it happens during the week b4 the cell tourny then why arent goku and gohan in SS form lets say they bumped their head and forgot to do it for a day SS Goku did put up a good show vs Perfect Cell so id argue Broly atleast = Perfect Cell cuz SS Goku didnt have shiznit on him, if he = Super Perfect Cell is a big question though what was the power jump from Perfect to Super Perfect?

[Pendulous]

Genn somehow i dont believe Goku really believes in family values hehe.

Anyways back to Broly, One of the reasons his PL is so hard to gauge is because of "when" its supposed to happen if it happens during the week b4 the cell tourny then why arent goku and gohan in SS form lets say they bumped their head and forgot to do it for a day SS Goku did put up a good show vs Perfect Cell so id argue Broly atleast = Perfect Cell cuz SS Goku didnt have shiznit on him, if he = Super Perfect Cell is a big question though what was the power jump from Perfect to Super Perfect?

Well, what gets me is Broly is defeated by Goku, still as SSJ1. He absorbs the power of his friends, and we don't really know how much energy that is.

[iadamson]

It takes a ssj2 to defeat cell.
A ssj to defeat Broly.

Cell killed Goku, & Trunks

Broly killed his dad.

Okay broly surived the destruction of a planet from an asteroid, so did cell minus the asteroid.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

It takes a ssj2 to defeat cell.
A ssj to defeat Broly.

Cell killed Goku, & Trunks

Broly killed his dad.

Okay broly surived the destruction of a planet from an asteroid, so did cell minus the asteroid.

Well, Cell actually died, he just came back because a few cells survived, and thus he regenerated. Which is also why he came back as Super-Perfect Cell.