Reincarnation's effect on suicide rate

[chazus]

So I'm currently reading this book, in which a species of aliens are convinced (and have proof) that they are reincarnated after death. Due to this, they are mostly unafraid of death in combat and warfare, and suicidal missions are often considered 'worthwhile' if effective. Moreso, they consider the fact that other species (humans) that do NOT reincarnate to be lesser creatures (effectively 'smart animals') because of this. However, the thought of non-reincarnation terrifies them, as it is effectively the closest thing to hell they have.

A particular section piqued a question for me, in which a person went on a suicide run in combat with the thought that he would 'be remade some time later, in a better time'.

This is not a discussion of if reincarnation exists or religion. My question is this, assuming reincarnation were provably true, and after death you were put into a 'queue' to be remade as a person, not anything else (and theoretically have some access to past lives/memories), would suicide rates be higher with society as it is now? Do you think people would be much more likely to off themselves with the plan to just 'wait for something better'?

[Beavis]

Well, there's a billion people on the subcontinent who believe in reincarnation. Their suicide rate is less than most Western countries. Draw from that what conclusions you will.

[Deleted]

If you die, you die. The stuff that makes you you decays. If you were to be copied it's not you, it's made out of different stuff although it wouldn't be distinguishable to other people. Only way for reincarnation to matter is if people had souls. Did the aliens in the book have souls or were they just copied?

Your question is silly anyways.

[chazus]

If you die, you die. The stuff that makes you you decays. If you were to be copied it's not you, it's made out of different stuff although it wouldn't be distinguishable to other people. Only way for reincarnation to matter is if people had souls. Did the aliens in the book have souls or were they just copied?

Your question is silly anyways.

It would probably make more sense if you read the entire post. I wasn't asking if reincarnation exists or not.

---------- Post added 2012-08-19 at 02:51 AM ----------

Well, there's a billion people on the subcontinent who believe in reincarnation. Their suicide rate is less than most Western countries. Draw from that what conclusions you will.

This is true. Which raises the question, why not? Are their beliefs that doing such and 'banking' on reincarnating into a better situation is considered cheating the system?

[Spl4sh3r]

If you die, you die. The stuff that makes you you decays. If you were to be copied it's not you, it's made out of different stuff although it wouldn't be distinguishable to other people. Only way for reincarnation to matter is if people had souls. Did the aliens in the book have souls or were they just copied?

Your question is silly anyways.

This has nothing to do with the topic at all. He is talking about if reincarnation was true, doesn't matter if you think it is not true because we are speaking only in theory.

I would think suicide would be higher in the countries that are worse off just for a chance to be born in a better country. However due to the amount of people in the world the queue would be immense to be reborn and also no more different people would ever be born.

[Veyne]

If you die, you die. The stuff that makes you you decays. If you were to be copied it's not you, it's made out of different stuff although it wouldn't be distinguishable to other people. Only way for reincarnation to matter is if people had souls. Did the aliens in the book have souls or were they just copied?

Your question is silly anyways.

And peoples' complete and utter lack of reading comprehension never ceases to amaze me.

[Simulacrum]

That sounds horrible. Imagine you hate life so much you kill yourself, but keep being continuously reborn to eternally suffer in permanent depression.

Would probably make suicide rates rise like crazy. Imagine, a guy hates life so much he kills himself, then after he dies he's reborn! So he kills himself again, and is reborn again; his life expectancy is gonna be a lot lower than non-suicidal people, so he's gonna getreincarnated more than non-suicidal people, so the relative number of suicides:births would keep rising until it reached some sort of equilibrium based on how many personalities exist in the pool, or people 'suicide proof' the entire society.

[Deleted]

It would probably make more sense if you read the entire post. I wasn't asking if reincarnation exists or not.

Asking the question you posed doesn't make sense unless you assume people had souls.

[Wolfbear]

Well your memories wouldn't remain would they? Also, reincarnation in Buddhism directly ties in with Karma, does this species have "Karma" or if you die is it always a good outcome? For example if you done horrible stuff all your life then killed yourself, you would be reincarnated as something shitty in Buddhism over and over again until it's paid off. If one of these aliens started killing then committed suicide, would it be a random reincarnation?

[chazus]

or people 'suicide proof' the entire society.

I do suppose the entire question would need more refinement as to how it 'works'. In the book, none of that is really explained. It's more a plot point, than a science. Perhaps repeated deaths lengths the 'queue', or maybe there is an option to 'exit' the reincarnation process.

[NeonX]

Personally I think it would, if people are not happy with something about themselves or their circumstances then they could simply off themselves and be born anew, given a fresh start.

I know if I fully believed in reincarnation then I would probably kill myself over the things I disliked about my current body.

[chazus]

Well your memories wouldn't remain would they?

Making the assumption they would, or at least would be somewhat accessible. The aliens (some of them anyway) are able to perform a ritual to tap into past lives and memories.

Also, reincarnation in Buddhism directly ties in with Karma, does this species have "Karma" or if you die is it always a good outcome?

There isn't any mention of good or bad. In fact, it seems as if they believe everything they do is their creator's will. So even if they do something bad, they were supposed to do that because it fulfills that will and the grand scheme of things. So no, I'd say Karma is not involved. However the reincarnation is random.

[vizzle]

Asking the question you posed doesn't make sense unless you assume people had souls.

Jesus Christ, read the OP. This is a thought experiment, stop being 'that guy'.

OT: Yes, I think people would off themselves much quicker and with more ease than they do in our society. If we actually knew what happened afterwards (and that being reincarnation), it'd be like rolling the dice every time for a better life.

[Aerai]

That sounds horrible. Imagine you hate life so much you kill yourself, but keep being continuously reborn to eternally suffer in permanent depression.

Sounds a lot like the concept of Saṃsāra, unless you turn things around during your current go of things, you're doomed to repeat or be worse off in the next one. Or you escape it altogether, but that's a whole different thing completely.

[Allyrion]

It would probably make more sense if you read the entire post. I wasn't asking if reincarnation exists or not.

---------- Post added 2012-08-19 at 02:51 AM ----------


This is true. Which raises the question, why not? Are their beliefs that doing such and 'banking' on reincarnating into a better situation is considered cheating the system?

Sort of. It's believed that you have karma in the world to fulfill and suffering that is a part of it. If you kill yourself to get way from it, then you'll just get it in the next life. Unlike your example, it's a religious system so reincarnation is not just a random queue after death but a way to fulfill multiple karma's on the path to enlightenment.
So killing yourself goes against belief in that system, and would be something like a sin. At any rate, it's socially unacceptable there too.

[MerinPally]

Being british, I'm fine with queueing for pretty much anything. I don't really feel like I could make a sensible blanket statement about the effect of the idea of reincarnation on suicide rates but if for some really strange reason in my life I was put into that sort of situation, if I could control myself I'd be attempting to make myself believe it albeit temporarily to make it all a little bit easier.

[Simulacrum]

I do suppose the entire question would need more refinement as to how it 'works'. In the book, none of that is really explained. It's more a plot point, than a science. Perhaps repeated deaths lengths the 'queue', or maybe there is an option to 'exit' the reincarnation process.

I figured as much, I just wanted to explore that part of it

Personally, I don't think it would matter much. The reaons people kill themselves are usually either perfectly rational (f.ex. "variable X is unbearable to me, and it will never change, so I will kill myself"), or spontaneous "I woke up today feeling like I should kill myself so I'll try it out"-sorts of things (which is part of why making bridges and tall buildings look really ugly by 'suicide-proofing' them appears to reduce the sucide rates of the entire surrounding area, by making killing yourself take more effort than just throwing yourself off something tall; people depressed enough to want to spontaneously kill themselves don't like to put a lot of effort into things). I dubt wether you're reincarnated (or go to some afterlife or not) plays a very big role in making such choices.

In humans, anyway. Dunno much about the psychology of those aliens!

[Deleted]

Well, there's a billion people on the subcontinent who believe in reincarnation. Their suicide rate is less than most Western countries. Draw from that what conclusions you will.

Don't they actually belive they only reincarnate if they don't go to Nirvana? As in, if their life is not worth enough? I may be mistaking, but that's what I thought.

[vizzle]

Well, there's a billion people on the subcontinent who believe in reincarnation. Their suicide rate is less than most Western countries. Draw from that what conclusions you will.

Don't they also believe your reincarnation is dependent on who you were as a person? Like a good person would be reincarnated into something better, while a bad person would become a critter? If so, then it's not the same situation as the book described in the OP. Committing suicide would condemn you to a life of being a bug.

[Allyrion]

Making the assumption they would, or at least would be somewhat accessible. The aliens (some of them anyway) are able to perform a ritual to tap into past lives and memories.

There isn't any mention of good or bad. In fact, it seems as if they believe everything they do is their creator's will. So even if they do something bad, they were supposed to do that because it fulfills that will and the grand scheme of things. So no, I'd say Karma is not involved. However the reincarnation is random.

This is actually what Karma is. It has no good or bad. In both Hinduism and Buddhism, it simply means action. It's likely based on that eastern tradition, now that you've said that.

EDIT:

Don't they also believe your reincarnation is dependent on who you were as a person? Like a good person would be reincarnated into something better, while a bad person would become a critter? If so, then it's not the same situation as the book described in the OP. Committing suicide would condemn you to a life of being a bug.

Untrue, except in Mahayana Buddhism which is the east asian tradition.