Some info on sub-numbers. Not just for SWTOR.

[Lord Kristivas]

Now to me at least what gaming companies need to do is stop trying to hit a home run, and start trying to build games that can make money on smaller amounts of resources.

When you read that, in the context of designing a game, it sounds like shit. It may not be shit, but it's automatically going to sound negative. "SWTOR was built with like 100 million dollars and it didn't de-throne WoW! Your 2 million dollar MMO won't hold a candle! Fail!" Those numbers are examples, of course. I don't know how much it takes to guild a "good" game. But, the whole low-budget thing really does turn people off right out of the gate. Even if it's the most amazing thing since Mass Effect, it already has a stigma of not being a "AAA MMO".

I don't really see this trend changing within the community for the near future. As long as WoW's subs are absurdly high, it will be the standard, and anything that doesn't reach that will be considered shit by the community. Even if they design a better game. It's as though people don't expect a gaming company to have to grow into their stride, and pick up their playerbase along the way. You know.. the way WoW grew. It didn't just appear with 9 million+ subs. That took quite a bit of time.

So, in the long run, games won't be able to properly flourish until WoW starts to lose popularity and decline heavily. The saddest part about this is, it's a community -created issue! Blizzard isn't keeping other gaming companies down. They were just in the right place at the right time, and for all those companies who follow that aren't, nary a fuck is given for how good their actual game is. Word of mouth circulates that it didn't sell 2 million boxes, and the harping begins. It's sort of a snowball effect, because it turns potential fans off of the game, before they even give it a serious look.

[WaitingforMoP]

Well, at least it shows that SWTOR is doing much better than SWG did, comparing it to it's own self instead of to WoW it's doing pretty good

Overall it's also seemingly one of the most successful mmos ever looking at this

Although I think it's strange that Aion, a game nobody ever talks about with like 0 hype is allegedly currently doing better than SWTOR

[SirRobin]

When you read that, in the context of designing a game, it sounds like shit. It may not be shit, but it's automatically going to sound negative. "SWTOR was built with like 100 million dollars and it didn't de-throne WoW! Your 2 million dollar MMO won't hold a candle! Fail!" Those numbers are examples, of course. I don't know how much it takes to guild a "good" game. But, the whole low-budget thing really does turn people off right out of the gate. Even if it's the most amazing thing since Mass Effect, it already has a stigma of not being a "AAA MMO".

Not so sure about that. TOR was a great example of time, treasure, and talent, just not mattering in the end. The game's design just wasn't good enough to keep most of the people buying it, want to keep playing it. Compare that to a title like Minecraft and you see almost the exact opposite. Not much time, treasure, or talent, but the design is so good that its hooked a lot of people. The game's the thing, so to speak.

[Arlee]

Idk, it depends on what people consider an MMO. League of Legends used to be strictly Multiplayer, an no, you weren't constantly in a game world, but 1m+ people = Massive, Multiplayer.... self explained, and it's online. So to me that says MMO. And yes GW1 and LoL are both free, but the charts say "Subs or active accounts." So I only assumed it included free games. but you may be right as to why it's not on there.

Ah those are good points. I've never played LoL so I was just going from my understanding of other people describing the game. Also I didn't notice it had active accounts listed too, thought it was just subs

I disagree, whether the game is good or bad is subjective. There are millions who dislike WoW, does it mean it is a bad game? Sure it has high subs but a lot of the subs are from Asia and we know how that works. APB is relatively decent game, not great but decent yet it has less then 1 million players (yes it does not have subscription fee unless you want a premium account).

So whether the game is good or bad depends how the player defines good or bad, apples and oranges. If the game is being shut down, then id consider that a awful failure.

Calling games under 1 million players awful *shakes head* ...

Eh, sorry I was totally being sarcastic in my remark and being that I know sarcasm doesn't always translate in text I should have marked it as such. But for the record I agree with you. Popularity of things in general is often not a good indicator of quality.

[iceberg265]

Although I think it's strange that Aion, a game nobody ever talks about with like 0 hype is allegedly currently doing better than SWTOR

Double check the graph. Thats SWTOR WEST vs Aion WORLD. We have never been given a number for SWTOR's worldwide subs.

[Deleted]

Poor Warhammer Online. Look at how those subs rose up so quickly and plummeted like a dive bomber. It should have served as a warning for what happens when you try a WoW clone. They obviously didn't learn.

Although I think it's strange that Aion, a game nobody ever talks about with like 0 hype is allegedly currently doing better than SWTOR

In the west? No. But to my understanding it did really well in the east. I don't think TOR has even launched in the east bar the pacific regions.

[Edge-]

Double check the graph. Thats SWTOR WEST vs Aion WORLD. We have never been given a number for SWTOR's worldwide subs.

Aion numbers aren't accurate anymore and haven't been updated in quiet some time, especially when you consider that it's not completely F2P in the West. So realistically between that and the increased competition in the East they're likely much lower at this point.

And SWTOR isn't out in the East as far as I remember, so those numbers are accurate for where it's been released, albeit 6 months out of date (1.7m was at the 3 month mark). So those numbers are SWTOR worldwide subs unless they've quietly released in the East or decided not to specify that the numbers they reported only account for Western accounts (very very highly doubtful)

[Lord Kristivas]

Not so sure about that. TOR was a great example of time, treasure, and talent, just not mattering in the end. The game's design just wasn't good enough to keep most of the people buying it, want to keep playing it. Compare that to a title like Minecraft and you see almost the exact opposite. Not much time, treasure, or talent, but the design is so good that its hooked a lot of people. The game's the thing, so to speak.

Which goes back to what I said, and to something BioWare's mentioned on F2P. People found the game good enough to play, but not pay for a sub. Minecraft, which is free once you buy it, and so sandbox that you can fiddle around and do whatever.. it's certainly prospering in an age where Facebook ADHD games are shooting up in popularity. Most theme-park MMOs simply will not ever get the level of subs WoW will get, as it's the standard. Gamers are moving to the point where they feel they shouldn't have to pay for a game to play it after the initial purchase, unless it's a WoW-level game.

Exceeeeept.. there won't ever be another WoW-level game! Before a game can grow into it's own and become that large, the community has shit on it, as mentioned above.

GW2 is free to play, and I imagine it will do quite well with the numbers. Not because it's so revolutionary or amazing (though I do like it a lot, it's not the baby Jesus of MMOs that people have claimed), but because it's both good and free of a sub. Most games generally only have one of those two qualities.

I personally think SWTOR is an awesome game too. Not everyone does, clearly. Once it has it's own F2P options, I think it'll do a lot better. If it does, then it just shows the mindset of the current average gamer and his/her hatred of subs. If it still doesn't do well, then it's a niche sort of game and I'm just part of it's target audience. :P

[Khoranth]

Wow that warhammer line. I looked forward to warhammer more than any other MMORPG, what a disappointment. Everything the devs said hyping the game was total BS.

Not suprising to see a graph with a line like that for warhammer.