[Priest] Shadow DPS Guide

[Deleted]

My examples are perfectly valid because the point of them was to show that the rotation isn't as dumbed down as you claim it is.

You then come back and tell me how other talents pull more dps and therefore my examples are invalid because of it. You would have a point if I was arguing that FDCL was pulling top damage everywhere, but I never said that. I meant to prove that Shadow isn't as dumbed down and provide well thought out way to execute a rotation and all you could up with is...X talent pulls more dmg....

Noone in their right mind will choose the talents of which you made your examples if they want to be as competitive as possible. As of now. Glyph of Mind Spike will only find use without Divine Insight. However, From Darkness Comes Light only finds use on multitarget fights, which also happens to favour Divine Insight in its tier (excluding Power Infusion, of which you made your second example).

So yes, your arguments are invalid. Even if they had any weight and the talents were equal, the story you told about the glyph of mind spike would be commonsense for self-respecting shadow priests and could have been told in 2 sentences. And the story about Power Infusion applies to all power gains. Every self-respecting shadow priests refreshes dots with major haste or spell power gains or whatnot.

[NickCageFanatic]

Noone in their right mind will choose the talents of which you made your examples if they want to be as competitive as possible. As of now. Glyph of Mind Spike will only find use without Divine Insight. However, From Darkness Comes Light only finds use on multitarget fights, which also happens to favour Divine Insight in its tier (excluding Power Infusion, of which you made your second example).

So yes, your arguments are invalid. Even if they had any weight and the talents were equal, the story you told about the glyph of mind spike would be commonsense for self-respecting shadow priests and could have been told in 2 sentences. And the story about Power Infusion applies to all power gains. Every self-respecting shadow priests refreshes dots with major haste or spell power gains or whatnot.

Did I say people needed to take the talents I provided as examples, once again you fail to even see my point and just go off about what talents pull more damage.
Your first argument is that Shadow Priests are dumbed down.

I argue that there is some nice complexity to the rotation based on talent choices. I never said that those talents were the best choices for all scenarios, just that they individually add some flavor for the spec.

Your counter argument is that the talents I provide as examples to show that the shadow priest isn't so dumbed down do not pull as much dps as other ones and therefore my argument is invalid.

Now you say how each talent (the ones I provide in my examples) have use in certain situations. So after saying there is no way to remain competitive with picking the talents you say now there is reason to take them...and yet you still imply my argument that shadow priests aren't as dumbed down as you claimed originally.

As for your remark about my "story" on mind spike. If it was that simple that any self-respecting priest could've come up and said within 2 sentences...then why have no priests come forth with that information? Maybe because it wasn't something the average person isn't going to think about when they see something proc.

[Deleted]

But you just did make an arrogant statement...not only arrogant but hypocritical because first you claim playing MoP shadow priest perfectly takes little effort and then you claim you aren't a perfect player....so how did you know playing spriest perfectly requires little effort.

Yeah I accept that the wording wasn't the best.
At the end of it all what I am trying to say is it requires LESS skill, not little skill. I probably should have conveyed my point with a little more clarity.

[NickCageFanatic]

Yeah I accept that the wording wasn't the best.
At the end of it all what I am trying to say is it requires LESS skill, not little skill. I probably should have conveyed my point with a little more clarity.

Some of the points I've had here attempt to explain some (what I believe to be rather tedious) "micromanaging" (I guess is what some people call it) within the general rotation. I guess that is where Blizzard wants the "skill" to come into play, not just how well you can hit 1, 2, 3, 4 at the right times but how you can adjust to hitting 1, 2, 3, 4 while (For Example) simultaneously watching a FDLC proc and making sure you can line up Mind Melt with your next Mind Blast (assuming you have the glyph).
Or perhaps if SW: I does get buffed, (I'll talk about balancing talents to make Potentio happy) imagine SW: P on a bunch of adds...have fun

Again those are two small examples and I'm sure people will come up with other interesting things that can be done with our talents, and not just blindly following what simcraft says the highest dps is. How do you think Simcraft does it job? Because someone found the optimal rotation and told Simcraft to do it. Right now is still a great time to play with stuff and see how best to use what CDs (lol I know we only have 1) can line up well with one another. Play with the spec a bit use some creativity to see if you can come up with something that is rather interesting (brings flavor) to the spec, and if its results in a dps loss...no matter we're not going to win the lotto every time we play.

And if everything is optimized completely as it stands, well at least you put forth the effort into learning a thing or two extra about the class and spec.


For all the doubters out there...
A great shadow priest is going to be great event with these changes.
Do you really expect even anyone can keep their ToF buff up when possible?
Do you really expect that anyone can just gonna waltz right in and understand that letting DoTs fall on Multi-Dot situations isn't optimal gameplay? Or refreshing DoTs too early?
Do you really expect that any player can now fully comprehend how to best use SimCraft, Reforge tools, etc to their advantage?
Any player can now getnumber 1 rank on WoL?
All this just because Shadow's general base rotation seems simpler to do.

[Frmercury]

I expect to be great event with these changes. I also plan to waltz.

[Vaelienn]

great post xD

[Myzrael]

Isn't Shadow Word: Insanity a core ability now? Also why not Glyph of Shadow Word: Death when it provides 1 extra orb each 8sec?

Edit: Nvm about SW: D, just read it does not generate orbs. Pity, it would have been fun synergy.

[Frmercury]

No, Power Word: Solace becomes SW:I if you're Shadow.

Anyway it's by far the weakest selection on that Tier.

[Jervaise]

Mind Flay on live: Reduces Shadowfiend cooldown.
Limits the ability of your DoTs to do their full potential (Evangelism)
Refreshes a third DoT.


on beta: Shadowfiend's cooldown is already reduced.
No longer limits your DoTs from their potential to a bad wind-up mechanic
Shadow only maintains max uptime on 2 DoTs, a refresh mechanic would be even more boring in this scenario; The mechanic itself is nothing more than passive auto-fire damage. Treat our dot Pain as if it's the old Devouring Plague (with multi-target), instead.



So the only thing we really have that's missing is Orb Procs. Mind Flay ticks have a chance to increase the damage of your Mind Blast. So did Shadow Word Pain procs. It didn't change when you were casting Mind Blast, you were already doing it on cooldown. So the lack of randomly bigger numbers is what's detracting for Shadow now?

so if all mechanics that buff other spells by our fillers are "waste of time cba" / "limits my gameplay" to you, why not have one spell you constantly spam and already do the damage you do on live by a rotation/priority list?


Things like you listed might not be the best designs, yet it gives meaning and depth to the things we cast.

This is where wow has gone so wrong in all its aspects,

simplicity for the sake of quality of life does not make good gameplay. A game is played for doing things, whereas now everyone approaches it as a job so they want their job to be simpler / without the hassle. The people who claim others are taking wow too seriously, are the ones who take it too seriously to demand things like this.

[Kelesti]

so if all mechanics that buff other spells by our fillers are "waste of time cba" / "limits my gameplay" to you, why not have one spell you constantly spam and already do the damage you do on live by a rotation/priority list?


Things like you listed might not be the best designs, yet it gives meaning and depth to the things we cast.

This is where wow has gone so wrong in all its aspects,

simplicity for the sake of quality of life does not make good gameplay. A game is played for doing things, whereas now everyone approaches it as a job so they want their job to be simpler / without the hassle. The people who claim others are taking wow too seriously, are the ones who take it too seriously to demand things like this.

Again, what's so simplistic about it now that's not simplistic about it before?

The only thing missing from before that's active now is: Your Shadow Word: Pain and Mind Flay ticks have a chance to increase the damage of your next Mind Blast for 60 seconds, stacks up to 3 times. I don't get where this suddenly makes the spec an interesting and skill based spec to the point that removing it suddenly drastically drops the skillcap. Because really, that's all that's gone.

[Saffa]

Really interesting but - I am not a raider. I like my spriest to do well in what she does do, but sorry to say this guide is way over my head lol

[Celentes]

Some of the points I've had here attempt to explain some (what I believe to be rather tedious) "micromanaging" (I guess is what some people call it) within the general rotation. I guess that is where Blizzard wants the "skill" to come into play, not just how well you can hit 1, 2, 3, 4 at the right times but how you can adjust to hitting 1, 2, 3, 4 while (For Example) simultaneously watching a FDLC proc and making sure you can line up Mind Melt with your next Mind Blast (assuming you have the glyph).
Or perhaps if SW: I does get buffed, (I'll talk about balancing talents to make Potentio happy) imagine SW: P on a bunch of adds...have fun

Again those are two small examples and I'm sure people will come up with other interesting things that can be done with our talents, and not just blindly following what simcraft says the highest dps is. How do you think Simcraft does it job? Because someone found the optimal rotation and told Simcraft to do it. Right now is still a great time to play with stuff and see how best to use what CDs (lol I know we only have 1) can line up well with one another. Play with the spec a bit use some creativity to see if you can come up with something that is rather interesting (brings flavor) to the spec, and if its results in a dps loss...no matter we're not going to win the lotto every time we play.

And if everything is optimized completely as it stands, well at least you put forth the effort into learning a thing or two extra about the class and spec.


For all the doubters out there...
A great shadow priest is going to be great event with these changes.
Do you really expect even anyone can keep their ToF buff up when possible?
Do you really expect that anyone can just gonna waltz right in and understand that letting DoTs fall on Multi-Dot situations isn't optimal gameplay? Or refreshing DoTs too early?
Do you really expect that any player can now fully comprehend how to best use SimCraft, Reforge tools, etc to their advantage?
Any player can now getnumber 1 rank on WoL?
All this just because Shadow's general base rotation seems simpler to do.

Throughout cataclysm, simcraft actually gave you a non-optimal rotation because noone cared enough to give it a proper dependencies between casts to make it optimal. Same goes for some other complicated specs though. This is no longer case with the current shadowpriest - simcraft is the cap of human capabilities because the spec is now very very very simple in mechanics and does not require a second thought.

As for WoL rank1, it'll still depend on your general skill, but if you look at who are sitting there now, they're really really really doing their job. They do know all the tricks and are capable of mathing out the best possible cast sequence on the fly. It'll be changed to the point that anyone within first 100 ranks will be able to get r1 with a proper rng, because the skillcap is going down due the straightforward nature of our new toolkit.

The amount of spec-related things I am constantly watching to determine the cast sequence for the next 5 seconds will be cut more or less by half. In some certain sense, DI does not add anything to that because it's reactive and MB is a top priority spell now. FDCL is somewhat interesting because it stacks up to two times so you can save it (which you should anyway), I'll give it that.
What used to differ a good shadowpriest from an amazing one is the ability to alter your normal play from static and pre-determined scenarios according to what is actually happening. It sounds simple enough and the same can be said for all other classes, but while we were rather simple in the static scenario, we did have the complexity (which some people are denying) that either rewarded you for remaining it without supporting it, or punished you if you were doing it wrong, so alternating your normal gameplay was very rewarding if you manage not to ruin it. There isn't much you can do wrong with the new toolkit. Yes you should still know the theory, but there isn't much to apply your knowledge to.

[Jervaise]

Again, what's so simplistic about it now that's not simplistic about it before?

The only thing missing from before that's active now is: Your Shadow Word: Pain and Mind Flay ticks have a chance to increase the damage of your next Mind Blast for 60 seconds, stacks up to 3 times. I don't get where this suddenly makes the spec an interesting and skill based spec to the point that removing it suddenly drastically drops the skillcap. Because really, that's all that's gone.

One sentece to answer your questions:

Most of our damage abilities just do damage, whereas before they reacted and interacted with eachother in other ways than direct damage.

[Yvaelle]

Really interesting but - I am not a raider. I like my spriest to do well in what she does do, but sorry to say this guide is way over my head lol

Well I wrote The Short Version at the start if you just want to know what the "right answers" are without knowing the debate behind them

I'm going to be re-writing the talent section today or tomorrow because I haven't done it in awhile and the numbers have changed pretty dramatically. Still expecting more number changes before live (and possible design changes still to come), so I probably wouldn't even recommend non-nerdy spriests reading the Long Version at this point unless they want to engage the debate

[Deleted]

Keep up the good work on the guides as you can see alot of are very greatfull

[Yvaelle]

Keep up the good work on the guides as you can see alot of are very greatfull

Thanks for your support! ^^

[Aica]

Just a reminder, the true priority system isn't nearly as clear-cut as written. You want to cast 3Orb DP before Mind Blast or SW: Death come off cooldown, but you want to refresh SW: Pain or VT before DP if it would fall off during the GCD. Of course, if MB/SW: Death cooldowns are going to expire at the same time the dots expire, then DP>MB>SW: Death>SW: Pain>VT.

With FDCL and Glyph of Mind Spike, ideally you want to save up two stacks of Surge of Darkness, and start casting Mind Spike ~4-5 seconds before MB comes off CD, so that it's instant, and you effectively reduce DP's CD by a GCD. Of course, you don't want to waste extra stacks of SoD, so you may want to use one stack as soon as you get it, then use the second one up before the Mind Surge buff falls off, all before MB comes off CD again. You probably want to cast Mind Spike just befor MB comes off CD even if you only have one stack.

[Kelesti]

One sentece to answer your questions:

Most of our damage abilities just do damage, whereas before they reacted and interacted with eachother in other ways than direct damage.

Before they "interacted with lots of passive effects that I had no direct control over, and didn't actually change my priority".

Sure, Mind Flay reduced the cooldown of Shadowfiend, but it's not like it really actually was interesting/compelling gameplay. You didn't delay a dot refresh or a Mind Blast by a second, because "oh man, I could take a second off my fiend". It was RNG, but it was passive through and through. Again, most of the passives were tied to Mind Flay, giving players the illusion of choice, rather than actually making interesting gameplay.

[Celentes]

Before they "interacted with lots of passive effects that I had no direct control over, and didn't actually change my priority".

Sure, Mind Flay reduced the cooldown of Shadowfiend, but it's not like it really actually was interesting/compelling gameplay. You didn't delay a dot refresh or a Mind Blast by a second, because "oh man, I could take a second off my fiend". It was RNG, but it was passive through and through. Again, most of the passives were tied to Mind Flay, giving players the illusion of choice, rather than actually making interesting gameplay.

There were numerous situations where you could change your priority to win some extra dps. That separated good shadowpriests from great ones. Now it'll be gone.

[Deleted]

So, anyone that is considering to reroll? I am and strongly at that. At least until they will have fixed the glaring dullness of the new shadow. But I am unsure whether I will go discipline (my current offspec), maining my first alt of Cataclysm (holy paladin) or rerolling mage/warlock, because these specs really seem new and INTERESTING compared to what was done to shadow.