[Megathread] DotA 2

[Lysah]

Tiny is heavily underestimated by a lot of people =p

But I've already said that recently.

But of course carry Tiny gives up some of his early game power for his ability to two shot a rax late game, if he didn't he wouldn't be a fair hero at all. I would argue he doesn't give up much, honestly, though. Even without a babysitting wisp, you can get a point booster by the same time a "normal" Tiny gets energy boots, and your mana problems are still solved. You can't spam toss at someone to make them leave your lane, but you're still useful in skirmishes.

[Deleted]

What are you even talking about?

There are Ranged heroes and Melee heroes.
Being 2 Melee heroes on a lane against 1 ranged and 1 melee or even 2 ranged heroes makes it hard as hell to not get outharrased.

Clear enough? Or do you want me to make a explanation video?

[Hermanni]

Tiny is heavily underestimated by a lot of people =p

But I've already said that recently.

But of course carry Tiny gives up some of his early game power for his ability to two shot a rax late game, if he didn't he wouldn't be a fair hero at all. I would argue he doesn't give up much, honestly, though. Even without a babysitting wisp, you can get a point booster by the same time a "normal" Tiny gets energy boots, and your mana problems are still solved. You can't spam toss at someone to make them leave your lane, but you're still useful in skirmishes.

Yes, obviously Tiny has to give up on something. Usually, I think, regardless how you build him there's always this spot around late midgame where Tiny becomes much less relevant. For a mobility focused Tiny, it's when your spell combo doesn't deal enough damage to kill anyone any more and you don't have the IAS to deal enough melee damage. For a carry Tiny it's when you struggle to find a way to get into the fight without getting snared and hexed before you get to do anything. But how Ehome did it there wasn't really any such point in the game (except maybe around the time they laid quiet for a while and farmed him his AC or Butterfly.) Their Tiny was dangerous in his lane, murderous in mid-game and in absolute rampage toward the end.

[Lysah]

Hilariously, I've seen a lot of wisp/tiny combos since. I immediately counter picked one with Juggernaut and a babysitting Lich, they didn't know what to do.

I'll admit, tether + spamming regen Wisp is absurdly annoying to lane against. Tiny spamming avalanche on cooldown from level 1 and has like 510 movespeed with phase as early as level 5. If they had been higher tier players it would have been pretty scary. Still, Wisp bores me as a hero, I wish they kept him the way he was on release.

[PizzaSHARK]

[/COLOR]
backdoor is not illegal its part of the game so is cheese

I didn't say it was illegal, but it's cheesy as fuck. It wouldn't be an issue if summoned monsters didn't remove backdoor protection, though - there's zero reason for that to be in the game, especially on a hero that can appear literally anywhere on the map at any point without even so much as a minimap icon to show you he's coming.

http://blog.dota2.com/2010/11/dota-2-qa/

Irrelevant. If you're wanting to play with friends, you're assembling a party and that's not public MM anymore.

Unless they want to dramatically improve their non-verbal communication options (a fucking commorose would be great), they need to restrict people based on languages spoken or something. Dota requires a lot more communication than spamming pings can provide, especially if you're playing higher-tier heroes like Chen, Wisp, etc.

[Lysah]

Rubick throwing people on cliffs at level 1 really needs to be removed.

Just because the enemy picked Rubick you have to stay clear out of the river or you risk losing the game instantly. I'm going to just start leaving games where this happens, what's the point of playing when someone is still level 1 on a cliff when everyone else is 6. That's not skill based or fun, it's just annoying.

Simple fix, how about we just make it so his stun can't throw people over terrain until level 2 or 3. Problem solved and the mid-end game functionality doesn't change at all.

[PizzaSHARK]

Rubick throwing people on cliffs at level 1 really needs to be removed.

Just because the enemy picked Rubick you have to stay clear out of the river or you risk losing the game instantly. I'm going to just start leaving games where this happens, what's the point of playing when someone is still level 1 on a cliff when everyone else is 6. That's not skill based or fun, it's just annoying.

Simple fix, how about we just make it so his stun can't throw people over terrain until level 2 or 3. Problem solved and the mid-end game functionality doesn't change at all.

Simple fix would probably be to make it obey same rules as War3 Dota, where there's some kind of block thing preventing heroes from being up there. You can do the same thing with VS swaps, Pudge hooks, etc. Not at level 1 but being stuck up there at any point is bad, especially if they snipe your courier and you didn't happen to have a TP handy.

I swear I think players in low prio are better than regular queue players. Everyone speaks English, has a sense of humor, isn't a complete moron, and a lot of them use their mics. Queue times suck, though.

Also, why are people so hard up on not getting Arcane Aura on CM, or only putting 1-2 points into it? Crystal Nova gains very little from having more points put into it, because it's fucking awful as a nuke (long cooldown, below average damage), and while the extra duration is nice, Frostbite gains a ton of duration per point at 0.5 sec per. Having maxed Arcane Aura also gives your teammates more mana to play with in their lanes, and if you have a hero like VS or QoP or even fucking Venomancer on your team who have a spell that is basically a free kill or tons of harass... it means they can use that spell more often without having to spend on mana regen.

Yeah, it's 70 sec to recover that 140 mana for a stormbolt with maxed aura, but what about if they only need another 60 mana to fire off another? 30 sec, not counting any consumables or other methods of restoring mana or base mana regen - so probably more like 3 total mana regen per sec, meaning 20 sec... compared to 60 sec. That's a pretty huge difference!

Do the pros only take one or two points because they don't usually play heroes with those kinds of spells, that would benefit from having that extra mana regen at an early level? Even if that's why, why aren't they maxing Frostbite before Crystal Nova? Wouldn't a 3 sec stun outweigh an extra 2 sec of duration on the nova slow?

[Lysah]

I don't take it at all because the mana regen is pitiful in the short term (lane phase only lasts a few minutes anyway) and it leaves CM with no damage at all (i.e. massive food for even enemy supports). A high level nova/frostbite early game, however, can really get kills.

I don't play CM much at all, though. I consider her absolutely bottom tier, she will (guaranteed) be a burden on your team if the game exceeds 25 minutes. I have lost games at 45 minutes where team fights basically became "Jesus if we had ANY hero but CM to actually contribute to the fight we would be winning."

[Deleted]

Simple fix would probably be to make it obey same rules as War3 Dota, where there's some kind of block thing preventing heroes from being up there. You can do the same thing with VS swaps, Pudge hooks, etc. Not at level 1 but being stuck up there at any point is bad, especially if they snipe your courier and you didn't happen to have a TP handy.

Ok, as you will ask me anyways, yes i play a lot of Rubick but that's not the point. If you let yourself be thrown on the cliff at lvl 1 by Rubick while getting your courier sniped AND no one on your team has the gold for a TP... well thats just plain stupid.

Do the pros only take one or two points because they don't usually play heroes with those kinds of spells, that would benefit from having that extra mana regen at an early level? Even if that's why, why aren't they maxing Frostbite before Crystal Nova? Wouldn't a 3 sec stun outweigh an extra 2 sec of duration on the nova slow?

CM being a situational pick in a aggressive dual lane like Morph/CM (mid) or with Juggernaut e.g. screams for an adaptive skillbuild. While you're in one of those dual lanes or maybe even a trilane every second of stun/slow matters because there are more rightclicks coming out. I guess that's why nova is mostly prioritized over maxing aura.

[Lysah]

Ok, as you will ask me anyways, yes i play a lot of Rubick but that's not the point. If you let yourself be thrown on the cliff at lvl 1 by Rubick while getting your courier sniped AND no one on your team has the gold for a TP... well thats just plain stupid.

It was said when pizza brought it up before, but I'll reiterate -

At level 1 you won't have gold, you spent it all and not on a TP scroll. Your team might have chicken, but it won't be flying. Which means you're sitting up there until someone buys a crow. That might not take long for anyone who can kill a few creeps, but unless they also buy you the TP scroll, you're still AFKing until you passively generate 135g. So, even if you just deal with it and play on you will be level 1 when even the side lanes are level 4. Let's not forget that it's been 4v5 which means at least one of them has been free farming, you're going to be level 1 with no extra items when they already have boots and you're going to feed.

So, the only answer to this is to just never go near the river until you already have a flying courier/carrying a TP scroll everywhere.

i.e. if Rubick gets picked he automatically gets the first rune. That's compelling gameplay.

[Sorx]

I'll try to explain what I meant. For the sake of the argument, let's at least assume the following are true:

1) Although his ultimate gives him +150 damage, the attack speed loss is a significant drawback until you have items to counter it, and while Craggy Exterior helps him there are ways to work around that too (BKB to mention one) and although the +5 armor is nice it barely makes up for his awful base armor and agility gain. Obviously staying at range works too, but it's not easy to build a fair comparison between him and a ranged hero.

just to nitpick at a point, this isn't entirely true. 150 extra dmg is probably more than his base dmg, and is equivalent to criting but at 50 IAS loss. it is quite the favorable trade.

There are break points within every situation where further atk speed will yeild no or minor benefit given that the speed will not amount to another attack or produce time that can be utilized by your reactions.Whereas dmg is always beneficial in some sense but admittedly does not scale in the same fashion, as IAS is percentage based. being melee, the loss of effectiveness in attack speed is far more common due to your attacks being altered by movement. It’s possible for a slower stronger attack to be more favorable as they lose less. I can’t say at what point though.

I’m not sure on how it’s calculated but IAS appears to make a heftier difference when you're slow ( I could be wrong) and is also quite cost efficient to buy. 50% speed can also be remedied far easier than 150 dmg. Furthermore, returning to the fact IAS is percentage base, with tiny’s higher dmg, he scales higher with subsequent IAS, and benefits for a greater buyable amount since he is slow.

[Hermanni]

just to nitpick at a point, this isn't entirely true. 150 extra dmg is probably more than his base dmg, and is equivalent to criting but at 50 IAS loss. it is quite the favorable trade.

There are break points within every situation where further atk speed will yeild no or minor benefit given that the speed will not amount to another attack or produce time that can be utilized by your reactions.Whereas dmg is always beneficial in some sense but admittedly does not scale in the same fashion, as IAS is percentage based. being melee, the loss of effectiveness in attack speed is far more common due to your attacks being altered by movement. It’s possible for a slower stronger attack to be more favorable as they lose less. I can’t say at what point though.

I’m not sure on how it’s calculated but IAS appears to make a heftier difference when you're slow ( I could be wrong) and is also quite cost efficient to buy. 50% speed can also be remedied far easier than 150 dmg. Furthermore, returning to the fact IAS is percentage base, with tiny’s higher dmg, he scales higher with subsequent IAS, and benefits for a greater buyable amount since he is slow.

It's not a very favorable trade until you get enough IAS. Level 16 Tiny with 0 agility or IAS from items is outdamaged by level 16 SF with no items and full souls, and level 16 Tiny with a single Hyperstone is at around the same level if you account for Presence of the Dark Lord. I haven't done the exact math, but it's easy to approximate that on a hero with very high damage and very low agi gain IAS holds a much higher value than anything else until your damage/IAS ratio is fairly balanced. A single Hyperstone cuts your attack time for more than 1 second, but even then your attack speed is lower than most heroes would have at that level without items.

And the other side of the problem is that there aren't that many items that suit Tiny that give IAS. People usually prefer other boots over Treads, and then there's AC, Manta, Butterfly and some items that give a tiny bit like Force Staff, Aghs, Drums. Midas and Orchid give some but are a bit unusual and while Mjolnir is very cost-efficient for IAS the orb obviously isn't very suitable for Tiny.

[PizzaSHARK]

It's not a very favorable trade until you get enough IAS. Level 16 Tiny with 0 agility or IAS from items is outdamaged by level 16 SF with no items and full souls, and level 16 Tiny with a single Hyperstone is at around the same level if you account for Presence of the Dark Lord. I haven't done the exact math, but it's easy to approximate that on a hero with very high damage and very low agi gain IAS holds a much higher value than anything else until your damage/IAS ratio is fairly balanced. A single Hyperstone cuts your attack time for more than 1 second, but even then your attack speed is lower than most heroes would have at that level without items.

And the other side of the problem is that there aren't that many items that suit Tiny that give IAS. People usually prefer other boots over Treads, and then there's AC, Manta, Butterfly and some items that give a tiny bit like Force Staff, Aghs, Drums. Midas and Orchid give some but are a bit unusual and while Mjolnir is very cost-efficient for IAS the orb obviously isn't very suitable for Tiny.

Mjollnir's orb suits pretty much everyone, which is probably why it's not core on anyone, either. It's useful on everyone but there might be better options. Mjollnir does provide more IAS in a single slot than any other item in the game, and combined with his scepter's cleave, it'd turn Tiny into a monster of a pusher, being able to liquefy both structures and creep waves in only a couple of swings. The activated ability also acts as a bit of an anti-carry spell.

But Mjollnir doesn't provide many benefits to the team or creeps, which is why AC is so much more often selected (need for armor notwithstanding.)

[Lysah]

The problem with mjoll on tiny is that the orb will never get used. On a hero like PotM who doesn't have any other AoE (from auto attacks) it will help her nuke down a wave, sure, it will proc multiple times when it takes her two shots to kill a creep.

But it takes Tiny two shots to clear the wave. Even if it proc'd both times it wouldn't effectively change how quickly he clears the wave. And it can't proc on buildings.

It's useful on heroes, of course, but the upgrade from hyper to mjoll is very expensive compared to the buriza/etc you could be buying instead.

[PizzaSHARK]

The problem with mjoll on tiny is that the orb will never get used. On a hero like PotM who doesn't have any other AoE (from auto attacks) it will help her nuke down a wave, sure, it will proc multiple times when it takes her two shots to kill a creep.

But it takes Tiny two shots to clear the wave. Even if it proc'd both times it wouldn't effectively change how quickly he clears the wave. And it can't proc on buildings.

Yeah, that's true. The interesting thing about Mjollnir is that it only counts as an orb on swings where it procs the chain lightning. I wonder if we'd see it more often if it wasn't a pretty expensive item.

[Lysah]

/shrug
People should try skadi weaver more but you never see that either. I'd take a moment to refer back to posts I've made in the past about pros and not trying new things.

[Hermanni]

Mjollnir's orb suits pretty much everyone, which is probably why it's not core on anyone, either. It's useful on everyone but there might be better options. Mjollnir does provide more IAS in a single slot than any other item in the game, and combined with his scepter's cleave, it'd turn Tiny into a monster of a pusher, being able to liquefy both structures and creep waves in only a couple of swings. The activated ability also acts as a bit of an anti-carry spell.

But Mjollnir doesn't provide many benefits to the team or creeps, which is why AC is so much more often selected (need for armor notwithstanding.)

Sorry but it should be fairly obvious that Mjolnir's orb benefits heroes that have naturally high IAS or lower BAT more and heroes that have 9 + 0.9 agility and penalty to IAS less. Just stop talking or go back to fretting about whatever you think is OP today.

[PizzaSHARK]

Sorry but it should be fairly obvious that Mjolnir's orb benefits heroes that have naturally high IAS or lower BAT more and heroes that have 9 + 0.9 agility and penalty to IAS less. Just stop talking or go back to fretting about whatever you think is OP today.

Actually, Mjollnir benefits pretty much anyone because it provides a heap of IAS in a single slot. Just Mjollnir and treads already provides enough IAS to make Mjollnir very effective on pretty much anyone.

People with naturally fast attack speeds would usually get a basher/abyssal for stunlock.

[Hermanni]

Actually, Mjollnir benefits pretty much anyone because it provides a heap of IAS in a single slot. Just Mjollnir and treads already provides enough IAS to make Mjollnir very effective on pretty much anyone.

People with naturally fast attack speeds would usually get a basher/abyssal for stunlock.

But I wasn't talking about Mjolnir, I was talking about Mjolnir's orb effect alone and that's what you were replying to. Just stop before this gets humorous again. Write a wall of text about how some hero is OP with a lengthy explanation about how his abilities work (like nobody already knew) if it makes you feel better.

Please be respectful of other posters. -Edge

[PizzaSHARK]

But I wasn't talking about Mjolnir, I was talking about Mjolnir's orb effect alone and that's what you were replying to. Just stop before this gets humorous again. Write a wall of text about how some hero is OP with a lengthy explanation about how his abilities work (like nobody already knew) if it makes you feel better.

Implying that Mjollnir's orb somehow comes separate from the stats the item provides? You seem really desperate to be right.

Mjollnir provides enough IAS on its own to make the orb effective. If you add treads or some other similar IAS item (maybe Midas?), it becomes plenty effective. It's why Mjollnir can be effective on pretty much any hero. Maybe some use it better than others and Lysah already explained why Mjollnir might not be a good choice on a carry Tiny, but pretty much any hero can get their 5k gold's worth out of it.