I propose this: Give the raids back to the raiders

[Hezlek]

Heroic Raiding is harder than anything we experienced in BC :|

[Monkeybrains]

Heroic Raiding is harder than anything we experienced in BC :|

I think what the OP would like to see (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong Akka, Grogo - and I know you will)

1) Raids should be of 1 difficulty not added mechanics / mobs for different levels.
2) True Tier progression, if you can't beat a boss you shouldn't be able to progress (no nerfs, lfr loot to assist in Tier raids etc)

Which basically means that like in BC, as Blizzard has previously stated, only 1% of the base gets to progress through all the content.

Did I attack a "strawman" again or did I accurately sum up the position in 2 statements?

[Osmeric]

Except I'm not talking about the "business model", but about the ridiculousness of wanting to alter the essence of an activity just so you can do it.
Business model explains why Blizzard still did this idiotic move, but it doesn't invalidate the wrongfulness of the concept.

The game is a business. You're talking about the game as if it were something other than what it actually is. And yet, for some reason, you think you're making sense.

[ro9ue]

Maybe give them 20 million boars to farm!

i lold at that.

i do miss a single tier. i dont consider LFR normal and heroic different 'content'. it's essentially the same stuff. rather just one mode, dont care the difficulty.

[Norzuk]

I think what the OP would like to see (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong Akka, Grogo - and I know you will)

1) Raids should be of 1 difficulty not added mechanics / mobs for different levels.
2) True Tier progression, if you can't beat a boss you shouldn't be able to progress (no nerfs, lfr loot to assist in Tier raids etc)

Which basically means that like in BC, as Blizzard has previously stated, only 1% of the base gets to progress through all the content.

Did I attack a "strawman" again or did I accurately sum up the position in 2 statements?

Bullseye!!

BTW, Heroic LK can still wipe some groups. And as far as I know, heroic Rag ins't a picnic still.

[link064]

Yes it does, for all the reasons listed :

Everything except the last tier is made irrelevant - How is that a problem? Do you have any examples of why this is a bad thing? You say that it is bad but you forget to explain your reasoning. I could use the exact same line as a reason for why current raiding is better. Are the rest of your points your reasoning? If so, you should probably format your sentences better to reflect that.

discovering the content has become a tourism trip instead of a big motivation - There's a big difference between doing the content for fun, doing the content to see the content, and doing the content to kill hard bosses. It's an incredibly large step of logic to assume that players fought hard bosses for hours because they just wanted to see the story and pretty new architecture. It's also an incredibly large step of logic to assume that all current LFR raiders were previously normal mode raiders that were only there to see the content. If your sole reason for raiding is to "discover the content", is it so wrong for Blizzard to provide something (completely optional) that allows these players to see the content that they made specifically for players to see? Additionally, this argument really reeks of "filthy casuals, get out of my end-game".

no more progression because of the constant reset - Well, yeah, except for progress made on individual bosses, which has been around since...forever. What's the alternative? Expansion-level progress? Game-level progress? That sounds like a fantastic idea: Producing content for the most hardcore of hardcore in which you must progress through months and years of additional content in order to experience at all, the likelihood of ever happening becoming exponentially smaller given the increasingly small pools of players stuck on a given level of content (unless you're one of the originals that has been around since the beginning farming each level of content as it comes out) which also makes it ever-increasingly impossible to replace players who quit raiding at the top. That ship sailed a long time ago.

rewards have lost their appeal due to overabundance - Are you really trying to say "filthy casuals have the same color gear as me"? Or is it closer to "raid bosses drop too much loot"? If your problem with it is that there's no distinction between "filthy casual epics" and "hardcore elite raider epics", that seems to be more of a problem that higher ilvl loot shares the same model than there being easy epics. Regardless, I don't consider "being able to gloat over shiny shoulder pads" game-changing.

gameplay is absent save in the last tier because of gear inflation and dumbing down the content - You mean, "gameplay in some of the last expansion's raids or recent raids on the easiest difficulties becomes trivial due to unintended consequences of having substantially higher stats than was designed around at the time"? There's still difficult encounters, even in BC and Wrath raids. Yes, you can complete them with significantly fewer players at a much quicker speeds, but you can also take your level 90 character to a level 10 zone and blow through mobs 50 at a time. Does that mean "gameplay is absent" there?

If you consider removing 90 % of the content, removing progression and removing motivators as not meaningfully altering the game, either you're incredibly stupid or incredibly trollish.

No content has been removed, players and guilds still have inner-patch progression, and there are still plenty of motivators. In fact, you could argue that there is actually more content now, more levels of progression, and motivation for more players.

Oh, and thanks for the insults. If you can't argue your point without resorting to petty insults, you probably shouldn't be here. Enjoy your forum vacation

Do people who play 2v2 basketball come whining to have the rules of the game changed ? No ? Then your answer is missing the core point.

How odd. The only people I see whining here are those who want the "good old days" back when "raids were hard" and "loot meant something".

Regardless, I'll bite. Assuming you aren't banned from some of the most ridiculously inflammatory posts I've seen in recent history, how are LFR players "whining to have the rules of the game changed"?

[razski]

I'm a hardcore raider, and I disagree with the OP on all points.

You do not speak for all the raiders out there.

[Norzuk]

I'm a hardcore raider, and I disagree with the OP on all points.

You do not speak for all the raiders out there.

THIS! I agree with this.

[jazen]

I think if you have cleared normal you should not be able to q LFR on that toon. My special beef is with with hardcore raiders doing LFR and qq'ing about what a mess it is.

[Hezlek]

I'm a hardcore raider, and I disagree with the OP on all points.

You do not speak for all the raiders out there.

Yep, pretty much this.

---------- Post added 2012-09-11 at 10:21 PM ----------

Even to this date I have not seen any raiding content that was "faceroll" on the normal difficulty setting..

not sure if serious or trolling

[XanderJS]

Meh seems like a pretty standard 'I've read a few threads from people QQing about casuals and I agree with it so everyone who really raids shares my opinion' post.

I raid 3 hours a day 4 days a week. I still don't consider myself hardcore but I certainly consider myself a raider. I raid, I want the content and I want the challenge for myself. Couldn't give a damn about whether others get to complete it months after I do for any number of reasons.

The OP harps on about what is and what isn't 'actual' raiding and plenty of people like trying to slap labels on people simply because we have some overwhelming desire to put people into nice tidy boxes. Simply being in one box doesn't mean your able to speak for that box in the assumption they all agree with your thoughts.

Personally I love what I'm hearing from the Dev's and the potential I see for future content. I would like to see each raid mode implemented and left alone for ever more. LFR for people who may have less skill and/or time to enjoy content. Normal modes for those that went a more organized environment and Heroic for the higher tier players to enjoy their challenge and get involved with progress races.

If we start preventing players from moving up from one tier to the other how will we ever be able to replace players. I had a vague interest in raiding back in WOTLK and I did PuGs as it seemed like a fun thing to do. When Cata hit I decided I wanted to raid more so got involved with more PuG's and from there I've moved on to being the GM of a fairly decent guild (HC Madness at 10%). If I hadn't been afforded those opportunities I would never have known how much I enjoyed raiding and what my own skill level could be.

There should be no reason for anyone to be excluded from something just because they don't fit into a specific set of ideals. Most people what want to experience a specific level of content will naturally fall into that mindset anyway for the most part, but that is a natural progression, not something artificially forced upon them.


The sooner everyone stops trying to dictate the way others play or what they should be 'allowed' to see the better off the entire community will be.

[Tadkins]

The TBC model sucked because it encouraged rampant guild hopping. I don't see what's so cooperative about that.

LFR is raiding to some people and that is a legitimate way to think.

That's all I wanted to say.

[Woozle]

It's refreshing to see people who consider themselves raiders and hardcore stepping up to voice their support (or even indifference) to LFR. Just as I've been trying to convince people that it isn't only "bads" who use LFR, I like seeing that there are raiders and hardcores out there that aren't elitists who just want to ruin other peoples' fun. Faith in the community = restored.

[Deleted]

TBH, this demand was relavant in wrath. It's over, the casuals won.

[Tadkins]

It's refreshing to see people who consider themselves raiders and hardcore stepping up to voice their support (or even indifference) to LFR. Just as I've been trying to convince people that it isn't only "bads" who use LFR, I like seeing that there are raiders and hardcores out there that aren't elitists who just want to ruin other peoples' fun. Faith in the community = restored.

Truth be told I don't like LFR all that much. Only ran it a few times early on. I just prefer to do guild raids for the most part. The only thing I don't like about it is it's ability to attract trolls. Those guys who purposely kill all the corruptions on LFR Spine, for instance.

That said, I have no problem with LFR being in the game, and I'm glad there are people out there having fun with it.

[Dylamoo]

Yeah right, let's sink huge amounts of money developping stuff that only a minority can see. That will provide a huge ROI.

I think people like you have been tricked by blizzard into believing the community that want's difficult raids a minority. This issue has been an issue since the beginning of wotlk, if it were truly a minority then the by now they would have all mostly settled and quiet down about this issue. I can understand why you believe this but i'm pretty sure there are quite a large group of players who want the game to be back to progressive hard content.

[Osmeric]

I think people like you have been tricked by blizzard into believing the community that want's difficult raids a minority.

There is no need to trick us into believing blatantly obvious truths.

[Legacy]

I think people like you have been tricked by blizzard into believing the community that want's difficult raids a minority. This issue has been an issue since the beginning of wotlk, if it were truly a minority then the by now they would have all mostly settled and quiet down about this issue. I can understand why you believe this but i'm pretty sure there are quite a large group of players who want the game to be back to progressive hard content.

Now this kind of discussion is going on for quite a while now... So i finally can't resist typing smth. in one of those 2 billion threads crying for harder content.
In fact i am raiding in top 50 world ranks since bc, more recently even about top 20 within cataclysm, but i keep asking myself - what game are you playing?

True, content is accessible by anyone now. Thus i quite agree with the deminished feeling of accomplishment in any semi-pro guild that doesnt compete for world ranks only whatsoever. The "reward" of progressing through content just felt more epic back in the days with it granting the priviledge of being the only one that got to enjoy everything the game had to offer.

Still i cant grasp the idea of the overall difficulty in WoW deminishing... (which means WITHIN the content that really matters for "hardcore" raiders). No freakin' fight in all of Vanilla and BC can still compete in difficulty to what blizz is shooting at us by now.
The maximum complexity within an encounter just increases constantly. Try compare T11/T12/T13 content to T4/T5/T6 or even Sunwell content where raiding was at its peak for some of you guys - and then start reflecting on the truth.

In fact its overall players getting better, hardcore guilds getting all the more hardcore and still world-first-progress takes 10+ times longer than back in the days (and by time i don't refer to how long a boss remained undefeated - i refer to how much playtime world's best players did put into defeating an encounter or content respectively).
Easier? I don't think so....

[Mormolyce]

Why do we need to be in hardcore guilds to get "prestige"? What we want also is that that journey that makes it feel like a worthwhile game to play. Also if that's their approach on appeasing everyone then obviously they have completely given up on the community that likes to actually do a real raid. I mean come on how ridiculous is that? you get help from the developers because we're too pathetic to try and do it on our own, so they give you a buff to help you win. Also fuck feats of strength, that stupid feat is not what we want.

If you want to work hard on content that isn't nerfed then beat it before the nerf. Or turn off the buff. If you can't beat it before the nerfs then too bad, you weren't good enough. If you don't turn off the buff then... what can I even say about that? If you say you want to do a raid without assistance and then refuse to turn off the buff you're just clearly full of crap.

---------- Post added 2012-09-12 at 06:26 AM ----------

I think if you have cleared normal you should not be able to q LFR on that toon. My special beef is with with hardcore raiders doing LFR and qq'ing about what a mess it is.

If any "hardcore raiders" do LFR for more than 2-3 weeks max, I call BS on them being "hardcore raiders".

Also if you take a hardcore raid team to LFR you'd annihilate the place in like 20 minutes. So who cares?

---------- Post added 2012-09-12 at 06:28 AM ----------

TBH, this demand was relavant in wrath. It's over, the casuals won.

It was never relevant. The fact that "casuals" couldn't raid was a design flaw, it's just that DS fixed it.

---------- Post added 2012-09-12 at 06:36 AM ----------

I love that setup. Unless you were in the very high end guilds, you never ran out of content. The whole experience felt a lot more rewarding. I see a lot of people saying this would screw casuals? Casuals got to do plenty of raiding in BC. Bads were the ones who couldn't, at least not much. But last I heard, most of the people who played in BC/vanilla are no longer subbed. So the majority of the people playing now never experienced this model.

Do you really think people would on the whole feel more rewarded if they'd spent all of DS stuck on Hagara? As in, literally could not beat Hagara and even see the other bosses on any difficulty, for the entire expansion.

Sounds like an absolutely terrible design to me. And I've been 8/8hm and full BiS for like forever.

[MoanaLisa]

This might be a little off-topic but I kinda want 40 man raids again ._.

I know they were a pain in the ass to organize but... It was just so cool having 40 people duking it out at a giant monster! Even though caster basically had to resort to wands half the time :/ But things have changed mana-wise.

Dress up AQ40, raise it up to level 90 and drop it into LFR. Would be awesome. Exciting, entertaining, tragic and everything else at once. I'd probably pay to watch to be honest. But it would be awesome to do.