[Balance] MoP Haste Breakpoint and T14.

[Batix]

Has anyone calculated what the breakpoint will be that we'll shoot for in 4-T14?

[Kritkin]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ste+breakpoint

I imagine we will go for the 5273 breakpoint since it will be the most realisticto get with the gear. after that. go crit. all crit. and when you think you have enough crit, go more crit. and if you cant go for crit? mastery

Here is the spreadsheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...jbkxjS0E#gid=0

[Deleted]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ste+breakpoint

I imagine we will go for the 5273 breakpoint since it will be the most realisticto get with the gear. after that. go crit. all crit. and when you think you have enough crit, go more crit. and if you cant go for crit? mastery

Here is the spreadsheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...jbkxjS0E#gid=0

This is only accurate prior to getting 4t14. Once you have 4t14, you have two achievable breakpoints: 3706 & 8089. 3706 is obviously trivial, 8089 is achievable at 4t14H levels of gear (possibly earlier with specific gear setups, I've not checked into when this is possible too heavily).

At least from Wrathcalcs, I'm seeing shooting for 8089 as being optimal.

[Kritkin]

This is only accurate prior to getting 4t14. Once you have 4t14, you have two achievable breakpoints: 3706 & 8089. 3706 is obviously trivial, 8089 is achievable at 4t14H levels of gear (possibly earlier with specific gear setups, I've not checked into when this is possible too heavily).

At least from Wrathcalcs, I'm seeing shooting for 8089 as being optimal.

Thats 4383 rating difference. For one extra tick. Ona a dot you you will likely be clipping anyways and losing the extra tick you gain so that you can get the buffed eclipse dot. 4383 rating to crit however = 7.3% crit, which to me, is far more valuable than 1 tick on a dot we we likely be clipping, even at t14h.

[Thalur]

Thats 4383 rating difference. For one extra tick. Ona a dot you you will likely be clipping anyways and losing the extra tick you gain so that you can get the buffed eclipse dot. 4383 rating to crit however = 7.3% crit, which to me, is far more valuable than 1 tick on a dot we we likely be clipping, even at t14h.

That comment doesn't make sense. First, you sound like the haste rating only benefits dot ticks. You completely forget that this also hastens your spells and GCD, getting you faster from one Eclipse to the other. Second, when you clip a dot, you don't lose the extra tick - it's not added at the end, you know?

There are tools that can tell you which is better, but my guess is that the next haste breakpoint will be clearly superior to crit rating.

[Juvencus]

Anyway stats now are far closer to each other than in cataclysm. Using one to get an extra bonus seems more beneficial. Crit % conversion has also been nerfed and hasted Starfires are always nice.

[Kritkin]

Anyway stats now are far closer to each other than in cataclysm. Using one to get an extra bonus seems more beneficial. Crit % conversion has also been nerfed and hasted Starfires are always nice.

how were they nerfed?

[Juvencus]

how were they nerfed?

I remember I read somewhere about the Crit rating->percentage ratios being changed for lvl85+

Will provide link once I figure out where I read it...

[Kritkin]

http://www.wowpedia.org/Combat_rating_system

this is what was posted in another thread and what I am going by.

---------- Post added 2012-09-19 at 01:52 AM ----------

If reaching the first haste breakpoint is as trivial as you state and we end up somewhere stuck in the middle prior to reforging, it maybe definitely be worth looking into how much the gap is and benefits of both as to whether or not to bump up to the next breakpoint or to scale down.

The difference in the breakpoints is 4383 rating

4383 crit rating = 7.3% crit
4383 haste rating = 10.3% haste

Where the question comes in is:

1. If you achieve that extra haste breakpoint, then you get an extra tick, and you shorten your cast by a small amount. You gain no energy and get only a fraction of a second closer to your next eclipse.

-OR-

2. If you reach the first haste point which was already pointed out as trivial, after which you go for crit and gain about 7% more crit on all attacks, your dots are that much more likely to proc an instant starsurge through crits and shooting stars, and that starsurge grant you energy towards whichever eclipse you are heading towards, and if that in turn crit you do massive damage with it, and if that proc occurs in an eclipse that starsurge crit is then amplified by the eclipse and mastery multiplier.

To me, option #2 is clearly the better choice. far more benefits

[Keiyra]

4383 haste rating = 10.3% haste

...then you get an extra tick, and you shorten your cast by a small amount. You gain no energy and get only a fraction of a second closer to your next eclipse.

10.3% haste is not just shortening one cast, or getting to one eclipse a fraction of a second faster. It's about the cumulative effective throughout the fight. It allows you to cast 10.3% more spells than you otherwise would be able to (assuming you are always casting something, even while moving) You'd get 10% more eclipses too (potentially) as more casts lead to more transitions. Not just reaching 1 eclipse a fraction sooner.

So its more like comparing 10% more casts versus 7% more crits. In Patchwork scenario
If you have periods where you aren't casting (missed a GCD for movement, etc) you could drop that to maybe 8% more casts (random guess). That what the sims and wrathcalcs are there to help you decide.

[Kritkin]

10.3% haste is not just shortening one cast, or getting to one eclipse a fraction of a second faster. It's about the cumulative effective throughout the fight. It allows you to cast 10.3% more spells than you otherwise would be able to (assuming you are always casting something, even while moving) You'd get 10% more eclipses too (potentially) as more casts lead to more transitions. Not just reaching 1 eclipse a fraction sooner.

So its more like comparing 10% more casts versus 7% more crits. In Patchwork scenario
If you have periods where you aren't casting (missed a GCD for movement, etc) you could drop that to maybe 8% more casts (random guess). That what the sims and wrathcalcs are there to help you decide.

I am talking about the cumulative effect. Yes you reach 10% more eclipses because of haste. That is a flat 10%. However you have an additional 7% chance on EACH dot tick (two dots so 14% overall) to proc an instant starsurge. Baseline ticks on each dot is 7 (14 duration @ 1 per 2sec = 7 baseline ticks before haste is figured in) So 14% crit on each tick for 7 ticks = about 98% chance to proc at least one starsurge, just from the crit from this breakpoint alone, not counting the rest of the crit from the rest of your gear, buffs, procs. One starsurge grants you 20 power, solar or lunar. That's reaching an eclipse 20% faster if you get one. 40% if you get 2. 60% if you get 3. And I have seen 3 in a row. You said yourself you lose some of the benefits from haste on movement, and from what I have seen in the the new raids, the is movement on every fight. And until they let us have spiritwalkers grace through symbiosis, then we cannot cast while moving (crosses fingers). However we can cast instant starsurges while standing still or moving, We gain power. They are buffed by either eclipse and all our new fancy cooldowns. They deal more damage than wrath or starfire, rather crits or not(but this stacking of crit will also increase the possibility of those. 120k instacrit anyone?) Also through euphoria they gain double power when not in eclipse. So even faster transition

So if you want to speak cumulative benefits. That 10% haste making you cast 10% faster throughout the fight, which over the course of the average say 6 minute encounter = 36 seconds of casting time providing you aren't avoiding mechanics or otherwise moving. OR The cumulative effect of the crit of the whole 6 minutes affecting every ability, stacking upon itself, and otherwise making everything better from transitions to movement to output.

[Deleted]

@Krit

If you try to provide conceptual arguments as to which stat is better, you will only determine which stat is better in that specific concept. In your case, if instant SS procs are such a big deal as you claim to be, then the crit would likely be better.

On the other hand, you can also provide mathematical arguments as to which stat is better. Of course, assuming you have a fairly accurate way of modeling (and I do think we have with Warthcalcs and Simcraft), you will only know which stat is better in a mathematical environment. Models say reaching haste breakpoint is better.

In reality, neither of those situations can truly resemble the actual raiding environment. Go figure, there are multiple conceptual arguments (those provided in this thread) and multiple mathematical arguments (simcraft and wrathcalcs and other models give different results). Therefore we cant know which one to be true.

However, in most cases mathematical arguments tend to be more factual than conceptual arguments, because of their nature. In the end the differences are only marginal if you dont care about those last few % dps, but if you do, you have to take those arguments with a grain of salt. In the end, every boss pull is different and should give you different stat values.