symbiosis is NOT bad for pve, stop thinking this!

[emni]

(...)

There's also the joyful 'oh you want x symbio abilities but you don't have a y class/spec in your 10-man group, well screw you, you're not getting it' thing.

(...)

The spell you get through Symbiosis isn't based on the specc of the person you link with, so it doesn't matter if you don't have a DPS shaman in your 10-man team, a resto one is just fine, etc.

That said, it will indeed suck if you want an ability from a class you don't have in your raid. Or if your 10-man has several druids and they all have their eye on the same class. My current 10-man team has 3 druids including me (2 druid tanks + me as healer), so I if we had Symbiosis right now I think I'd try to steal our shaman for most fights, while the bears can fight over our rogue... xD

[Kaiarra]

The spell you get through Symbiosis isn't based on the specc of the person you link with, so it doesn't matter if you don't have a DPS shaman in your 10-man team, a resto one is just fine, etc.

That said, it will indeed suck if you want an ability from a class you don't have in your raid. Or if your 10-man has several druids and they all have their eye on the same class. My current 10-man team has 3 druids including me (2 druid tanks + me as healer), so I if we had Symbiosis right now I think I'd try to steal our shaman for most fights, while the bears can fight over our rogue... xD

More along the lines of we have no Shadow Priest in our 10-man comp as he runs Disc/Holy, and always heals = we won't be able to get a bonus Tranq, which I'd say is arguably the best use for Symbiosis. We also run no Hunter, DK or Rogue in Cata so if either of us want something off those classes we're so out of luck.

[Ashrr]

I can't speak for other specs but as a resto druid, this is perhaps my favourite spell in the game now. A little creativity goes a long way. I can think of plenty of situations where Symbiosis would contribute so much to the raid:

1. Demonic Circle: Teleport - A healer popping magma traps on Ragnaros HC would be great for raid dps.

2. Iceblock / Deterrence - Fantastic spells for soaking stuff or just avoiding massive damage in general. Remember Majordomo HC's orbs? You just gave the mage on duty 10 seconds worth of dps.

3. Icebound Fortitude - Stun immunity on Halfus so you can tranq through Furious Roar.

4. Leap of Faith - Godlike spell. I wish I had this on Spine when our tank was learning the kite. We had to make our shadow priest shift out of shadowform to help him out. It would have been very nice on Nefarian as well. Linked to someone on Baleroc? Instant pull.

5. Spiritwalker's Grace - Running Tranquility! This combo is almost broken / mandatory on Lei-shi.

6. Cleanse - Lich King.

7. Symbiosis as a Tank CD - At the very least, we can treat Symbiosis as a cooldown for a single tank, one which he can cast on his own. Coupled with Ironbark, we actually have options for mitigating heavy tank damage now, albeit on a single target. It isn't as good as what the other healers have but we aren't as helpless as we were in the past.

8. Intimidating Roar - I haven't tested this personally but on Shek'zeer (10m normal mode testing) the adds were pretty much one shotting us when they got in range. I had to use Ursol's Vortex and Mass Entanglement for CC. If these adds can be feared, this spell would be very useful on this particular fight.

9. Fortifying Brew and Evasion probably aren't as useful as the others. I can't really think of any situations where I would pick these over something else.

Yes, throughput boosts are nice but we druids are generally at the higher end of the scale. We were severely lacking in the death prevention department though, forcing raid leaders to pick other classes. Things have gotten much better for us with the additions and changes. Embrace the new utility we get: You'll probably find yourself contributing a lot more to the raid than before. Just remember to point things out to the raid leaders if you have pre-raid setup discussions. I expect most non-druids to be clueless about this spell and its varied possibilities.

The major concern with Symbiosis in PvE is that it will only be used to grant other specs an ability. You'll have to use it to give the tank a cooldown, so it doesn't actually provide much utility to the druid who cast it.

This is probably one of my only concerns regarding this spell. I hope the tank CDs aren't overpowered enough to outshine everything else. That and poorly designed fights with little to no requirement for utility.

[Deleted]

Its pretty awesome tbh, i had lots of fun in beta raids throwing it on our MT warrior to get shattering blow or on the shaman for wolves (shame they only get healing touch)

But mostly its great if both classes get something good out of it (bubble is awesome if your shit like me and get hit by loads of mechanics that would normally kill you )

[asharia]

Sooooooo looking forward to getting life grip off our priest, and her having Tranquility to help healing big raid damage

[Wolfdragon]

Stop qqing, right now, Symbiosis is the best 87 spell in the game, which is a tradeoff because the worst 80-85 spell is stampeding roar.
/thread

[baller1308]

Symbiosis is only bad when you are not in a group. I wish I could use it on myself and get some random ability per spec.

[Spectral]

Symbiosis is only bad when you are not in a group. I wish I could use it on myself and get some random ability per spec.

I actually rather enjoy the feeling of getting stronger in groups. If anything, I feel like that's been stripped out of the game more than I'd like.

[Finbezz]

...what?
People actually saying symbiosis is useless?
It fits the idea of being a hybrid and symbiosis with a DK is the best thing ever.

[Kujako]

...what?
People actually saying symbiosis is useless?
It fits the idea of being a hybrid and symbiosis with a DK is the best thing ever.

But I'm not a hybrid, I'm a tankin' Druid.

[Finbezz]

But I'm not a hybrid, I'm a tankin' Druid.

You lost all credibility when you said symbiosis is completely useless.
You think 10% dmg reduction or Feint isn't worth a GCD?
Sorry, but that's just asinine.

[Kujako]

You lost all credibility when you said symbiosis is completely useless.
You think 10% dmg reduction or Feint isn't worth a GCD?
Sorry, but that's just asinine.

When I could instead use my own abilities and get a larger reduction? Yea, not worth it. If there is a theoretical instance where all my other cool-downs are used, then sure. But that seems like an outlier condition rather then a legitimate use.

[Finbezz]

When I could instead use my own abilities and get a larger reduction? Yea, not worth it. If there is a theoretical instance where all my other cool-downs are used, then sure. But that seems like an outlier condition rather then a legitimate use.

Considering you're apparently not a heroic raider; Sure, I suppose you can get by without an extra CD in Bone Shield.

[Kujako]

Considering you're apparently not a heroic raider; Sure, I suppose you can get by without an extra CD in Bone Shield.

Lets assume for a moment that a 10% bone shield is useful, I'll give you that more damage reduction abilities are better then less. It is still not worthy of being our level 90 ability as it is far weaker then lower level cool-downs. Looking at the list of abilities Symbiosis grants, it is very difficult to care due to how watered down they are.

[Wolfdragon]

Lets assume for a moment that a 10% bone shield is useful, I'll give you that more damage reduction abilities are better then less. It is still not worthy of being our level 90 ability as it is far weaker then lower level cool-downs. Looking at the list of abilities Symbiosis grants, it is very difficult to care due to how watered down they are.

So wait, giving that Brewmaster tank Survival instincts with no cost to you and actually giving you an on use 10% dodge is bad? In what universe? Oh and Bone Shield when used after barkskin and having a rotation you end up with ~30sec with no cooldowns if you don't use SI, which makes a rather big difference, and you're actually giving the other tank an additional cd too.

[emni]

I can't speak for other specs but as a resto druid, this is perhaps my favourite spell in the game now. A little creativity goes a long way. I can think of plenty of situations where Symbiosis would contribute so much to the raid:

1. Demonic Circle: Teleport - A healer popping magma traps on Ragnaros HC would be great for raid dps.

2. Iceblock / Deterrence - Fantastic spells for soaking stuff or just avoiding massive damage in general. Remember Majordomo HC's orbs? You just gave the mage on duty 10 seconds worth of dps.

3. Icebound Fortitude - Stun immunity on Halfus so you can tranq through Furious Roar.

4. Leap of Faith - Godlike spell. I wish I had this on Spine when our tank was learning the kite. We had to make our shadow priest shift out of shadowform to help him out. It would have been very nice on Nefarian as well. Linked to someone on Baleroc? Instant pull.

5. Spiritwalker's Grace - Running Tranquility! This combo is almost broken / mandatory on Lei-shi.

6. Cleanse - Lich King.

7. Symbiosis as a Tank CD - At the very least, we can treat Symbiosis as a cooldown for a single tank, one which he can cast on his own. Coupled with Ironbark, we actually have options for mitigating heavy tank damage now, albeit on a single target. It isn't as good as what the other healers have but we aren't as helpless as we were in the past.

8. Intimidating Roar - I haven't tested this personally but on Shek'zeer (10m normal mode testing) the adds were pretty much one shotting us when they got in range. I had to use Ursol's Vortex and Mass Entanglement for CC. If these adds can be feared, this spell would be very useful on this particular fight.

9. Fortifying Brew and Evasion probably aren't as useful as the others. I can't really think of any situations where I would pick these over something else.

I feel like this is once again overhyping how useful Symbiosis is.

1. If you can spare a healer to pop traps then perhaps you should replace that healer with DPS. There's a reason most healing priests don't pop traps with levitate but leave it to DPS.

2. Those are nice, agreed, but not as awesome as Void Shift or Ascendance, wouldn't you say?

3. I'm not sure if that would work, but theoretically it sounds nice

4. You're really exaggerating claiming it's god-like. It's very handy in some situations, yes, but those situations are hard to predict. I've certainly never had to help our tanks kite on my priest, I think they'd get quite pissed off if I pulled anyone without them asking me. :P

5. Yes, Spiritwalker's Grace is amazing and awesome and bordering on OP. :P

6. Why do you need 2 Cleanses in the raid? The paladin can already do it, you are merely replicating an existing thing that the raid group already has.

7. Yes, the additional tank CD is nice.

8. This can be useful occasionally, yes. But again, is it as awesome as Ascendance? :P

[Finbezz]

Lets assume for a moment that a 10% bone shield is useful, I'll give you that more damage reduction abilities are better then less. It is still not worthy of being our level 90 ability as it is far weaker then lower level cool-downs. Looking at the list of abilities Symbiosis grants, it is very difficult to care due to how watered down they are.

You imply that it's useless and then contradict yourself in the next sentence.

I agree, they are watered down, but saying something is useless when it is clearly not is limiting yourself as a bear tank.

[teddabear]

Is your spec fun and is it balanced at 90? If not you have a legitimate complaint. Saying your level 87 ability isn't as good as other level 87 abilities is not a strong argument.

Also if your spec is not fun or balanced it does not necessarily follow that the correct fix is to change your level 87 ability.

[Ashrr]

I feel like this is once again overhyping how useful Symbiosis is.

1. If you can spare a healer to pop traps then perhaps you should replace that healer with DPS. There's a reason most healing priests don't pop traps with levitate but leave it to DPS.

2. Those are nice, agreed, but not as awesome as Void Shift or Ascendance, wouldn't you say?

3. I'm not sure if that would work, but theoretically it sounds nice

4. You're really exaggerating claiming it's god-like. It's very handy in some situations, yes, but those situations are hard to predict. I've certainly never had to help our tanks kite on my priest, I think they'd get quite pissed off if I pulled anyone without them asking me. :P

5. Yes, Spiritwalker's Grace is amazing and awesome and bordering on OP. :P

6. Why do you need 2 Cleanses in the raid? The paladin can already do it, you are merely replicating an existing thing that the raid group already has.

7. Yes, the additional tank CD is nice.

8. This can be useful occasionally, yes. But again, is it as awesome as Ascendance? :P

1. The damage pattern in Firelands including Rag HC was largely <heavy aoe damage> <lull> <heavy aoe damage> <lull> and so on. A healer could stop casting to pop the trap during the lull period but this doesn't mean his healing wouldn't be required later on. The reason most healing priests don't pop traps is because levitate isn't the best spell for the job. It's slower than a blink or a teleport even if timed well. Also, most priests in Firelands were playing disc from what I remember, handling the tanks most of the time. A resto druid with teleport would have a much easier time doing it and then healing the raid up right after.

2. I'd take an immunity over Void Shift any day. AFAIK, Ascendance is a throughput cooldown right? I think we're already doing fine in that department so I'll take the extra utility again.

3. It worked for the DKs AFAIK. Should work for us.

4. We didn't pull him randomly of course, it was a planned get away. Our warrior tank had problems staying alive on many fights in DS and had to overcome them by kiting or getting away (Spine bloods, Hagara Focused Assault, Madness Tetanus Adds). Our shadow priest is also usually very quick with the clutch grips and has saved many, many wipes. I'd love to be able to do that. It really is a nice spell to have for kiting, chain mechanics and saving derps standing in shit. It's even better when you can give a tranquility in return.

6 and 8. What if you were in a 10 man without a holy pala or a priest but had a prot paladin tank? Highly unlikely I know, but it could happen. I healed the entirety of Firelands with a shaman partner while our paladin tanked. Luckily, there were no Necrotic Plague-like mechanics or else we would have been SOL. Intimidating Roar is highly situational as well but it's there if required.

The best part about Symbiosis is its versatility. You are able to "tweak" it to suit *your* guild's needs. I just gave you a few examples off the top of my head but with some thought, you maybe able to use it to overcome raid comp issues, funky mechanics and deadly situations. The icing on the cake is that you always have a few safe options in the tank CDs, SWG and Lifegrip / Tranq combo. For these reasons, I'd certainly want it more than a throughput cooldown.

I'll admit it may not seem as appealing for some of the other specs though. Bears probably got the short end of the stick.

[Spectral]

8. This can be useful occasionally, yes. But again, is it as awesome as Ascendance? :P

I think comparing each individual ability against Ascendance rather misses the point (or, at least, what I think the point is). Symbiosis provides fight to fight flexibility, something extra to think about and incorporate into your plans, and some excellent options. I'm not saying it's automagically better than Ascendance (it's not, Ascendance is really cool), but it's potentially powerful and very fun and interesting. In the context of raiding, I think it's a more fun and interesting than Stampede, Shadow Blades, and probably some others. It beats the shit out of Blinding Light for raiding.