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  1. #21
    From my beta experience I would place their difficulty somewhere between Wrath and Cata heroics. They are definitely easier than the Cata heroics a launch, but they aren't so easy that you have to ignore mechanics. If you continue to stand in bad you will die, but you don't have to be perfect.

  2. #22
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    I'd place them between the Wrath and Cata heroics, but much closer to the Wrath heroics. So they're fine. They're not really meant to be hard, for the average players they're pretty standard. The early Cata heroics were bordering on too difficult for the casual crowd, but they were definitely overhyped. I wouldn't say they were brutal. I never set foot in a Cata normal, my guild forced me to jump straight into tanking the heroics with a couple of crafted pieces and I think we only wiped once. So heroics are never "difficult" for the people who are at level cap way before the rest of the pack. When the average players get there they'll have an average experience.

    Using the logic of "Well they're winning while undergeared so the content is too easy." is slighting difficult raid content from back in the day. I recall a couple of times when Asian realms got content we'd been working on for awhile and roflstomped it in gear from the previous expansion. Playing smart definitely makes up for holes in gear.

  3. #23
    I did all heroics on beta on my hunter and it was realy easy.Blizzard intended to make heroics the new 5 man normal and make raiding hard.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Luneward View Post
    Yeah, pretty much that. After the first month of Cata, I simply stopped doing random dungeons at all until HoT came out. Every dungeon had at LEAST one or two bosses that would smear a group if you had someone that didn't know what they were doing, and didn't listen. Blackrock Caverns and Stonecore were my particular unfavorites because pretty much every boss could wipe your group easily, and even coordinated groups could have bad days with those for the first month or so. Difficult dungeons are nice, but if they're part of the grind to get your gear, and to run alts through they get old very fast.

    It sounds like MoP heroics might be a little too easy, but I'll cross that bridge when I get there, and better a little too easy with some increased difficulty tweaks than brutal to pugs.
    In my opinion heroics being part of the gear progression, makes it more important that they are not too easy. Because there is no way you can skip the experience. Another reason is that it's fun to see how the gear and your character gets upgraded. Healers and tanks don't get this if no one takes any damage right from the start. Tho don't worry my idea is not make them too hard. Acceptable difficulty level is something I'd like to see. For example Wotlk dungeons were FAR from acceptable level of difficulty. After few parts of gear my tank took pretty much no damage. Another example would be Cataclysm dungeons. They were too hard for PuGs, people wiping in the same boss for an hour or two is not acceptable either.
    For gearing dungeons in MoP I'd like to see almost similar HP/dmg for bosses/ mobs than they had in Cata start, only slightly lower. Boss mechanics on the other hand should be almost ignorable, to avoid wipefests. This gives everyone something to do, and makes getting a part of gear more valuable. This would also leave the boss mechanics for you and your friends to find out in Challenge modes.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by jimlow View Post
    1) Anyone doing heroics in less then 24 hours from launch is not your normal player. Some of us haven't even had the luxury of being able to log on yet due to Work/School/ect

    2) Blizzard learned their lesson from cata launch, this should not not be a surprise for anyone there is close to 15 damn pages on MMO-Champ discussing this ad nauseum.

    3) Its disheartening to hear so much complaining on the forums after close to a year of no new content. People are already looking to tear down what Blizzard spent months to build, can't you just give em a break and just be happy?
    The thing isnt that its good players whining bout difficulty its that I had a harder time healing lvl 87 normal mode mor palace than heroic lvl 90 palace in greens. The heroics are literly easier than the normal modes at level.
    Last edited by Moshots; 2012-09-26 at 08:38 PM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by momirmaster View Post
    The thing isnt that its good players whining bout difficulty its that I had a harder time healing lvl 87 normal mode mor palace than heroic lvl 90 palace in greens. The heroics are literly easier than the normal modes at level.
    Judging by your signature your on the 46 ranked server in the US, and on that server your guild is ranked #5. You probably got your heroic DW kill with the 5% or at 10% buff. This would lead me to believe that you a very adapt and skilled healer and would explain why you personally do not feel challenged by these heroics as they are below your level of play.

  7. #27
    Deleted
    I've been taking them in dps gear and still not taking any damges... seems a bit too easy

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by jimlow View Post
    1) Anyone doing heroics in less then 24 hours from launch is not your normal player. Some of us haven't even had the luxury of being able to log on yet due to Work/School/ect

    2) Blizzard learned their lesson from cata launch, this should not not be a surprise for anyone there is close to 15 damn pages on MMO-Champ discussing this ad nauseum.

    3) Its disheartening to hear so much complaining on the forums after close to a year of no new content. People are already looking to tear down what Blizzard spent months to build, can't you just give em a break and just be happy?
    Corporate America loves people like you. "Here, take my money! And no I'm not going to complain when you give me zero new content for 9 months even though I pay you a monthly fee! I know you're hard at work to provide an awesome game, you're definitely not trying to milk your customer base for as much as you can while providing as little content as possible!"

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-26 at 06:55 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Luneward View Post
    Yeah, pretty much that. After the first month of Cata, I simply stopped doing random dungeons at all until HoT came out. Every dungeon had at LEAST one or two bosses that would smear a group if you had someone that didn't know what they were doing, and didn't listen. Blackrock Caverns and Stonecore were my particular unfavorites because pretty much every boss could wipe your group easily, and even coordinated groups could have bad days with those for the first month or so. Difficult dungeons are nice, but if they're part of the grind to get your gear, and to run alts through they get old very fast.

    It sounds like MoP heroics might be a little too easy, but I'll cross that bridge when I get there, and better a little too easy with some increased difficulty tweaks than brutal to pugs.
    This post makes me sad. "pretty much every boss could wipe your group easily", the fact that that is now an exception rather than the norm really speaks to the ultra-simplified, casualized direction Blizzard has taken the game.

    The problem with the super easy, blazing fast heroics is that players complete them almost instantly with no challenge and a rapidly declining incentive to run them again. Players get bored much quicker of the easier content, and as evidenced the last 2 years, millions quit.

    Yes some people will quit because content is too hard and they would rather not play than have to work through the challenge, but to me that is more a problem with that individual gamer than the game itself.
    Last edited by ShimmerSwirl; 2012-09-26 at 10:57 PM.

    *~To change one's life: Start immediately. Do it flamboyantly.~*

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    Corporate America loves people like you. "Here, take my money! And no I'm not going to complain when you give me zero new content for 9 months even though I pay you a monthly fee! I know you're hard at work to provide an awesome game, you're definitely not trying to milk your customer base for as much as you can while providing as little content as possible!"

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-26 at 06:55 PM ----------



    This post makes me sad. "pretty much every boss could wipe your group easily", the fact that that is now an exception rather than the norm really speaks to the ultra-simplified, casualized direction Blizzard has taken the game.

    The problem with the super easy, blazing fast heroics is that players complete them almost instantly with no challenge and a rapidly declining incentive to run them again. Players get bored much quicker of the easier content, and as evidenced the last 2 years, millions quit.

    Yes some people will quit because content is too hard and they would rather not play than have to work through the challenge, but to me that is more a problem with that individual gamer than the game itself.
    1) Corporate America does not like me, just ask my cable and cell phone provider

    2) If they do then maybe its because I don't make outrageous demands that cant possibly be fulfilled, Like I want a new raid tier and 1 new dungeon with 5 new boss's + mechanics with unique armors/models/art/craftable/achievements items every 3 months that works flawlessly with no bugs/glitches that inspires me. I've been playing this game a long time. I know what to expect and plan accordingly.

    3) The WotLK were the same way and people were running them all the way through 3.3.

    4) Your letting your personal feelings cloud your judgement on the matter. super easy blazing fast heroics were not the cause of the rapid decline over the last 2 years. The intro heroics were punishing to LFD groups and so were the ZA/ZG revamped heroics and the 45+ minute clear times didn't help eaither. That coupled with the fact nobody could pug anything saw a huge dip in subs. In addition people that did complete them never went back to help other groups through them as a carry so once all the good players moved on all the other players left with no direction and nothing to do just called it.

    5) Yes some people will quit because the content is too easy and they will get bored but at the end of the day there is less of those people then people that quit due to it being too hard. As you would say that is more of a problem with that individual gamer than the game itself.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by jimlow View Post
    4) Your letting your personal feelings cloud your judgement on the matter. super easy blazing fast heroics were not the cause of the rapid decline over the last 2 years. The intro heroics were punishing to LFD groups and so were the ZA/ZG revamped heroics and the 45+ minute clear times didn't help eaither. That coupled with the fact nobody could pug anything saw a huge dip in subs. In addition people that did complete them never went back to help other groups through them as a carry so once all the good players moved on all the other players left with no direction and nothing to do just called it.

    5) Yes some people will quit because the content is too easy and they will get bored but at the end of the day there is less of those people then people that quit due to it being too hard. As you would say that is more of a problem with that individual gamer than the game itself.
    I see this argument used a lot, and the point people like you always conveniently leave out is that Blizzard DID nerf all the Cata heroics back into wotlk faceroll mode, and what happened? Another 1.4 million players quit. So the argument that people quit because the content is too hard is simply not true.

    Even though wotlk didn't have the huge sub losses that Cata did, it still completely stopped the absolutely massive the growth that the game had been enjoying from original release right up until the release of wotlk. Its almost comical to look at the chart and see skyrocketing growth through Vanilla and TBC, and than an immediate stop as soon as Casual-mode Wotlk hits in late 2008:



    Its not exclusively the faceroll dungeons that are killing WoW, its the casual, oversimplified, watered down everything that is in the game now, dungeons are just the most obvious example of this.

    *~To change one's life: Start immediately. Do it flamboyantly.~*

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by sanaubia View Post
    but cata heroics were really easy at launch
    Not THIS easy

    Gundrak 1st boss, the snakes were horrid if you had poor dps
    Occulus overall boss dmg plus drakes
    etc

  12. #32
    muchtoohigh's chart is informative, but isn't necessarily predictive of what would have happened had Blizzard retained the Burning Crusade model or something like it past the end of 2008. I think it's very unlikely that WoW would have continued growing at the same pace, regardless of what Blizzard did. While a continued upward slope might have been possible, I sincerely doubt that subscriptions would have reached 20 million, ever.

    I think Blizzard made the wrong call when they went with the Wrath model in 2009, but I don't think there was a "right call" that could have kept growth at the level it had been. The market was shifting under their feet with mobile gaming coming along, and it can be argued that they blew that opportunity more directly than they blew having the subscriber base they had in 2008.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Toxigen View Post
    People are mowing through heroics on my server...no challenge at all in questing greens.

    Pretty sad.
    This is why they have challenge modes..

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-27 at 02:32 AM ----------

    Why do people have to turn every thread into a fucking argument about subs, just give it a rest.
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post

    This post makes me sad. "pretty much every boss could wipe your group easily", the fact that that is now an exception rather than the norm really speaks to the ultra-simplified, casualized direction Blizzard has taken the game.
    Comprehension skills :s

    If pretty much all bosses wipe you easily then its the norm, not the exception. You are so eager to jump on the negativity bandwagon that you just twist whatever you read to suit your purpses.

  15. #35
    They really are super easy. It's actually quite ridiculous. You don't even take any significant damage from barely any of the bosses. I almost feel burnt out after doing like 12 of them because there's no challenge. Don't even wanna know how it's gonna be when using raid gear. Even both the world bosses were mildly challenging, the Sha was way more difficult than the other one though. But mainly because it was kind of chaotic when noone had done it before. Looking forward to the raids at least, I bet many of the heroic bosses will be fun! Challenge modes too.
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...hurstor/simple
    Tier 11 - 25man -13/13hc (world 220)
    Tier 12 - 10/25man - 7/7hc (world 144)
    Tier 13 - 10/25man - 8/8hc (world 91)
    Tier 14 - 10man - 6/6hc - 4/6 hc - Quit raiding

  16. #36

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Comprehension skills :s

    If pretty much all bosses wipe you easily then its the norm, not the exception. You are so eager to jump on the negativity bandwagon that you just twist whatever you read to suit your purpses.
    And you're so quick to criticize that you didn't read the post I was quoting. The poster is referring specifically to BRC and Stonecore, annoyed that those instances actually contained bosses that could wipe the group. She is treating that type of boss as if it is the exception.

    *~To change one's life: Start immediately. Do it flamboyantly.~*

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by b0sanac View Post
    This is why they have challenge modes..
    You cannot do challenge modes instantly + you have to farm heroics for getting gear, which means that the boringly easy dungeons are unavoidable.

    Also, challenge modes are nice extra but they shouldn't be a reason to make the game dull outside of them.
    Last edited by Matson; 2012-09-27 at 11:52 AM. Reason: My quoting skills are amazing

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Hiya View Post
    No...No they were not.....please stop
    Ya, they were very easy compared to BC heroics. BC heroics were a smash in the face. For a skilled player Cata heroics were not hard whatsoever at the start.

  20. #40
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Old View Post
    GZ, but your group is not like what people call "pug" so you are misleading :P

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