1. #8961
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    How about the country that prides it self on the fairness of due process, have the same respect for the countries we want to be more like us? We are taking our drone targets, from the same government that had Bin Laden down the road from their version of the CIA. This is the competence we are stacking our trust on.
    so instead we should send police officers to go capture them? its only fair to treat them exactly the same as a u.s civilian criminal.

  2. #8962
    Old God Grizzly Willy's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Kenosha, Wisconsin
    Posts
    10,198
    There is a great deal of inconsistency with the data that is being reported. Mother Jones for example, states that the success rate is 2%, with a combattant death count of "1061 to 1584" out of "1,372 and 2,12", resulting in a civilian, or non-combatant, death rate of ~25%. Their 2% statistic is derived from the percentage of attacks that went after high value targets and suceeded.

    The site DoD Buzz, which one would assume as being for innovative military measures like unmaned drones, posted a scathing article on the innefectiveness of the drones. I take issue with their reporting, however, as they cite the 2% statistic as being the number of combatants killed, with the other 98% that were killed being non-combatants, which is misleading. They're only non-combatants insofar as not being people in positions of power within their military structure.

    The people of Pakistan are, according to all that I could find, against the drones strikes because of their high civilian death count. There are sites that try to explain why the numbers appear as skewed as they are, and I gather that it is due to differing definitions of what is and is not a civilian.

    I can't really make a claim one way or another. The conflicting data leaves me unsatisfied, though I feel more compelled to side with the people on the receiving end than the people launching the strikes, if only because they probably know what's going on better than anybody else.

    If there's anything to take away from this, is that you shouldn't take that link I posted to be definitive proof. There's a lot of conflicting data out there, leaving the waters quite murky.

  3. #8963
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    the other
    Posts
    58,334
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Do you honestly, truly believe that you're arriving at the conclusion that these studies are correct because you're well informed about them and think they use the best methods possible and aren't just experiencing confirmation bias?

    I don't hestitate admit I have no sound idea of how many innocents were killed.
    The key word is innocent. Because we did not have a trial for any of these people, all of them are technicaly innocent. If Pakistan government points out a location of terrorist. We bomb it and one source claims they were innocent, while Pakistan government still claims they were terrorist.

    The number of civilians killed flactuates on knowing and trusting the intelligence gathered that lead to the strike. If you think US government has no credible evidence on any of the targets, you can claim 100% of those killed were civilians.

    Drones are better than all out war, but how many things can you think of that are actually worse than war?

  4. #8964


    Samuel L. Jackson To Voters: 'Wake The up and vote for Obama

    I gotta say I kinda agree with the message.

  5. #8965
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    the other
    Posts
    58,334
    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    so instead we should send police officers to go capture them? its only fair to treat them exactly the same as a u.s civilian criminal.
    There's the conundrum of killing people in other countries. The fair thing to do is to target drug cartels and gangs in US. The fair solution is to spend the money on making Detroit look less like a war zone. That's what I see as fair...

  6. #8966
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    The key word is innocent. Because we did not have a trial for any of these people, all of them are technicaly innocent. If Pakistan government points out a location of terrorist. We bomb it and one source claims they were innocent, while Pakistan government still claims they were terrorist.
    I don't think one can say that enemy combatants are innocent in the absence of a trial. I realize it gets very dang tautological to say, "we bombed them, so they were combatants!". I'm not arguing that there weren't innocents folks killed, just that the absence of a trial doesn't make them de facto innocent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    The number of civilians killed flactuates on knowing and trusting the intelligence gathered that lead to the strike. If you think US government has no credible evidence on any of the targets, you can claim 100% of those killed were civilians.
    Agreed, I'm going to be somewhat skeptical of any claimed numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    Drones are better than all out war, but how many things can you think of that are actually worse than war?
    For me, it's that drones are a lot better than all out war for the US. I'm under no delusion that they're better for the people that get hit though. I absolutely would advocate for making very damned sure we're hitting the right people, to the best of our abilities.

  7. #8967
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    There's the conundrum of killing people in other countries. The fair thing to do is to target drug cartels and gangs in US. The fair solution is to spend the money on making Detroit look less like a war zone. That's what I see as fair...
    and meanwhile, what happens to the terrorist groups targeting us and our allies? oh well, lets hope they let sleeping dogs lie?

  8. #8968
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    the other
    Posts
    58,334
    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    and meanwhile, what happens to the terrorist groups targeting us and our allies? oh well, lets hope they let sleeping dogs lie?
    Stacking up on red bulls, so they can get wings to fly here and attack us?

  9. #8969
    Old God Grizzly Willy's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Kenosha, Wisconsin
    Posts
    10,198
    I understand that this is common knowledge, but I feel it is pertinent to the conversation. We shouldn't forget that there are still people guiding these drones. How Stuff Works has an article detailing how these drones operate.

    And for some reasoning my spellcheck isn't working.

  10. #8970
    Quote Originally Posted by FusedMass View Post
    Samuel L. Jackson To Voters: 'Wake The up and vote for Obama

    I gotta say I kinda agree with the message.
    Must say, that's an absolutely fantastic ad.

  11. #8971
    For me, it's that drones are a lot better than all out war for the US. I'm under no delusion that they're better for the people that get hit though. I absolutely would advocate for making very damned sure we're hitting the right people, to the best of our abilities.
    well yes. it just seems like a lot if this is kneeherk reactions. "Innocents get killed by drones, drones are bad!" they also get killed in raids, in invasions, and in wars. more than with drones i would imagine. maybe if we offer bigger bounties on the terrorists they'll turn themselves in like that one guy?

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-28 at 04:22 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    Stacking up on red bulls, so they can get wings to fly here and attack us?
    yeah, we've never been attacked on our own soil before. much less embassies.

  12. #8972
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    the other
    Posts
    58,334
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    I don't think one can say that enemy combatants are innocent in the absence of a trial. I realize it gets very dang tautological to say, "we bombed them, so they were combatants!". I'm not arguing that there weren't innocents folks killed, just that the absence of a trial doesn't make them de facto innocent.
    You are absolutely right. I did not mean to imply that it meant they were innocent. It just means opinion is what leads one to think which were innocent/civilian and which were not. I think the flactuating numbers reflect that.

  13. #8973
    Old God Grizzly Willy's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Kenosha, Wisconsin
    Posts
    10,198
    Does 9/11 that not count as an attack on our land?

  14. #8974
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    the other
    Posts
    58,334
    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    yeah, we've never been attacked on our own soil before. much less embassies.
    Sounds like we need to do something on our own soil to prevent it from happening. That way, we can protect from foreign attacks of any country and domestic. None of the people we hit with drones attacked us and as far as I know that crappy Tom Cruise movie about predicting the future, is still in the sci-fi section.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-29 at 12:27 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Grokan View Post
    Does 9/11 that not count as an attack on our land?
    No, those people are dead. The people we kill now had nothing to do with it.

  15. #8975
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    Sounds like we need to do something on our own soil to prevent it from happening. That way, we can protect from foreign attacks of any country and domestic. None of the people we hit with drones attacked us and as far as I know that crappy Tom Cruise movie about predicting the future, is still in the sci-fi section.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-29 at 12:27 AM ----------



    No, those people are dead. The people we kill now had nothing to do with it.
    they just belong to the organization that planned & carried it out is all. maybe they just joined for the cool jackets?

  16. #8976
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    the other
    Posts
    58,334
    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    they just belong to the organization that planned & carried it out is all. maybe they just joined for the cool jackets?
    After nearly 10 years of us having 2 wars in neighboring countries, drones bombing their neighbors, their growing or sustaining numbers, do not need the motivation of a cool jacket.

  17. #8977
    It amazes me how the vast majority of people can't grasp the concept WAR is Hell.

    Innocents will die, civilians will die, non combatants will die, all in the hopes of preserving a longer lasting piece.

    Not to sound callous but war is like making a omelet, you are going to break a few eggs.

  18. #8978


    I am going to link this video one more time. It's really a well made video. I'd like some feedback on it please.

  19. #8979
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    After nearly 10 years of us having 2 wars in neighboring countries, drones bombing their neighbors, their growing or sustaining numbers, do not need the motivation of a cool jacket.
    that happened after we were attacked.
    i thought they were just minding their own business & had no plans to attack americans though?

  20. #8980
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    the other
    Posts
    58,334
    Quote Originally Posted by Maneo View Post
    It amazes me how the vast majority of people can't grasp the concept WAR is Hell.

    Innocents will die, civilians will die, non combatants will die, all in the hopes of preserving a longer lasting piece.

    Not to sound callous but war is like making a omelet, you are going to break a few eggs.
    Isn't that reason enouph to not have war? Isn't 'war for peace' an oxymoron?

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-29 at 12:37 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    that happened after we were attacked.
    i thought they were just minding their own business & had no plans to attack americans though?
    Why did you think that? Have you seen Rambo 3?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •