So... I'll have to do these dailies *forever*?

[Glorious Leader]

They aren't nerfed to the ground, they are where they are supposed to be! >.<

Man Cataclysm messed people up more than I thought... People like you seem so used to being spoon-fed gear for zero effort...

---------- Post added 2012-10-10 at 09:53 AM ----------


JP gear is 458, HC gear is 463. The difference is 5 item level, and you whine, really?...

Right cataclysm messed people up. It was the same thing in Wrath to man. MoP is the outlier here. Hell it was the same system in IOQD. None of it was EVER tied to dailies or if it was the dailies were server wide and the event went on whether or not I participated in them. Even still think about how stupid that fucking argument is. Blizzard has been fostering and rewarding a play style that has made them MILLIONS. To turn around now and reverse the course of that decision and then say MAN CATA MESSED PEOPLE up is not only missing the point it's insane. Blizzard did this and is the only one responsible for it. YOU WERE ALL defending them as they did it so to turn around now and still defend them is a joke. I can't believe on THIS FORUM WHERE EVER PROGRESSIVE CHANGE THEY MADE WAS DEFENDED SO VOCIFEROUSLY I now have people defending the regressive changes they've made and I'm on the other side of the table. Madness.

And yes unless it equivalent I will be back in dungeon fighting the RNG monster on and on and on.

[TheWerebison]

yea of course people have stopped. Theirs no value in them anymore since the rewards are so poor. In fact people not only just stop queing they stop running the entire dungeon. Hell they also ninja everything in sight. JP gear has never been a stepping stone to raiding, you don't even need it now to raid. Same for heroic gear I can raid in blues and greens and have been able to since Karazhan. JP gear was about rewarding people who've ran dungeons X amount of times but have gotten the shaft because RNG is bullshit. Now the argument is what X should be.

Honestly, that JP argument will be considered null and void once the next raids come out. I mean the ones after Terrace and Heart of Fear. You KNOW the old VP gear will get turned into JP gear.

Maybe the amount of JP you get from dungeons isn't that great, but other than that, I like the new style. You can run scenarios quickly to get the quest items from them. Use those to get into heroic dungeons, if you needed them to get in. The JP is used to fill in spots you can't fill with 463 gear. And, Blizzard will most likely make them used on profession mats later, too.

I've seen people drop out of groups constantly in Cata heroics, too. There are always going to be people who get annoyed when their stuff doesn't drop and they ragequit. I had someone ragequit in a SCENARIO, for christ's sake. There's some nutty people out there.

I like that it takes a bit longer to get geared up this time around, because I know it's going to change when the next set of raids comes out. Then it'll be purples right at 90 again.

[Jokerfiend]

I feel like I'm facing a future of perpetual daily quest grinds. Yeah, you can opt not to do it, but everything is dependent on the damned things. It's bad enough getting to revered/exalted with a bunch of them when dailies are the only way to gain rep, it'll take weeks and weeks, but it seems I'll have to keep doing them forever if I want fortune charms.

Who will ever want to be a raider without getting the most out of it? To most players, raiding without their weekly quota of charms is out of the question. It certainly would taint the incentive for me, knowing I'm missing out on probably several raid drops per month just because I'm not grinding freakin' dailies. I expect most guilds will require that their members keep topped up on charms -- why bring a member who isn't getting the most out of the raid if you could bring someone who gets the extra upgrades and thus improves progression? You wouldn't bring someone who doesn't enchant his gear.

The problem is that these dailies are terrible. It's not only a grind, it's an exercise in frustration to try and do the same quest as fifty other players. It's a mob-tagging, ninja-clicking competition. I don't know how I'd be able to do that forever with no end in sight, every day, just so I don't miss out on gear upgrades from an entirely unrelated part of the game.

I think we'll need alternative ways to get these charms. (bolded/underlined because nobody seemed to comprehend that part and selectively read that I want charms for free without doing anything) They should be obtainable with VP and/or CP. I don't feel like I should have to do 45 dailies a week every week for the rest of the time I play WoW. It's just as reasonable to expect people to do dungeons or PvP -- those activities are certainly no less related to the act of raiding, and I expect most players would be a little more enthusiastic about those things than dailies. Whatever the case, I feel like alternatives will be necessary. I certainly will not be doing 45 dailies every week - and more if I want to raid with alts as well - forever. The "for as long as I play WoW" part might just get cut very short if that's how it has to be.

Welcome to Ogre dailies in TBC. That shit was hideous, YET, it made for interesting experiences. Made you play the game better, learn macros, get interested in new people, and cooperate a bit.

[TequilaFlavor]

The funny part is you can say both in the same thread and not recognize the problem. Dailies will get you out of the world for 20 minutes a day. They won't keep you there and if your only spending two minutes then your just zerging the quest area and getting it done asap. For that part we had to have dungeon rewards nerfed to the ground.

Getting everybody (well, at last a good bunch of people) out in the world for 20 + minutes a day (some people will do more dailies for one reason or another) is still better than not getting them out in the world at all - at least in my book.

[Deleted]

It's the principle of it, in the ilvl debate.

And I strongly disagree with your assertion that having gear be equivalent across the board (true options) is somehow being spoon-fed. And I've been here since vanilla, so no, Cata didn't "ruin" me. bC had it too, with emblems.

Whether you run dungeons for thirty minutes or you've done dailies for thirty minutes, the same "effort" has been expended. It's what you find fun or not that matters. The extrinsic rewards for time invested should be the same,

Heroics give you a chance for loot, JP gear is guaranteed, a reward for your efforts of at least trying. RNG should be slightly more rewarding than guaranteed rewards, because they are RNG, but all in all it's 5 item lvl difference and I see both gear as the same... Both will do fine for raiding in both normal and LFR mode.

[Glorious Leader]

It's the principle of it, in the ilvl debate.

And I strongly disagree with your assertion that having gear be equivalent across the board (true options) is somehow being spoon-fed. And I've been here since vanilla, so no, Cata didn't "ruin" me. bC had it too, with emblems.

Whether you run dungeons for thirty minutes or you've done dailies for thirty minutes, the same "effort" has been expended. It's what you find fun or not that matters. The extrinsic rewards for time invested should be the same,

Indeed as have I and over the years I've watched the game morph and change into something far more accessible and progressive than it was. Hell even in mists they still did much of that like the talent system. The daily/rep/valor change however sticks out like a sore fucking thumb.

[Deleted]

Right cataclysm messed people up. It was the same thing in Wrath to man. MoP is the outlier here. Hell it was the same system in IOQD. None of it was EVER tied to dailies or if it was the dailies were server wide and the event went on whether or not I participated in them.

And yes unless it equivelant I will be back in dungeon fighting the RNG monster on and on and on. Please let's stay constructive here.

458 is easily enough to enter raids, you don't need a full set of 463 even if it's damn well easy enough to get as it is already. I'm at 466 and I don't even feel that I worked all that much for that, but then again you think 10 min of dailies is like a job so what do I know right?

[Glorious Leader]

Getting everybody (well, at last a good bunch of people) out in the world for 20 + minutes a day (some people will do more dailies for one reason or another) is still better than not getting them out in the world at all - at least in my book.

Sure but I doubt they kicked dungeons and all this progression in the balls for that. I mean it may as well be instanced because for the most part the behaviour is just go finish daily quests. It's not like their stopping to take time and enjoy the world or anything.

---------- Post added 2012-10-10 at 08:03 AM ----------

458 is easily enough to enter raids, you don't need a full set of 463 even if it's damn well easy enough to get as it is already. I'm at 466 and I don't even feel that I worked all that much for that, but then again you think 10 min of dailies is like a job so what do I know right?

Yea when you feel compelled to do it everyday because of the reward it grants. I'm not sure what you know but I'm sure you'll tell me. The simple fact is that every other change to mists is really progressive and really helpful to players and in many cases is all about choice. This one sticks out like a sore thumb though. Furthermore I don't raid. I do however still like to gear up my toon and not beat my head against the RNG wall over and over again. That's what torchlight 2 is for.

You'll have to forgive me though it's 4am here and that means dailies have reset on arthas. time to punch in the clock. Morning sam. Morning ralph.

[Madhoof]

The argument with "no reward without effort" is invalid as long as effort is only defined through questing which means dpsing. I'm a healer I love healing, healing is the only thing I like to do. After leveling to 90 I was just relieved, that I could cancel my DPS spec and switch back to resto, only to find out, I will have to dps again if I want to be competitive.

I'm not saying doing dungeons forever was the optimal way, but at least it was a possibility to get what I needed by doing what I like most. That's everything I have to say to the akward "choice" argument.

[Glorious Leader]

Welcome to Ogre dailies in TBC. That shit was hideous, YET, it made for interesting experiences. Made you play the game better, learn macros, get interested in new people, and cooperate a bit.

You are the first person I've ever heard suggest that TBC was great because of Ogre dailies. I barely touched them.

[TheWerebison]

The argument with "no reward without effort" is invalid as long as effort is only defined through questing which means dpsing. I'm a healer I love healing, healing is the only thing I like to do. After leveling to 90 I was just relieved, that I could cancel my DPS spec and switch back to resto, only to find out, I will have to dps again if I want to be competitive.

You don't have to, though. You can run dungeons. Heroics will give you lvl 463 gear, and you'll be fine to enter LFR or normal raids. You don't have to touch dailys, the VP gear is only there for those times you don't get stuff. And the coins are just a bonus roll, there's no guarantee you get stuff from that other than some gold.

[Deleted]

Yea when you feel compelled to do it everyday because of the reward it grants. I'm not sure what you know but I'm sure you'll me. The simple fact is that every other change to mists is really progressive and really helpful to players and in many cases is all about choice. This one sticks out like a sore thumb though. Furthermore I don't raid. I do however still like to gear up my toon and not beat my head against the RNG wall over and over again. That's what torchlight 2 is for.

If the gear you need doesn't drop, there's JP gear which is basically just as good. The system you praise so badly to buy gear is still there, even though you like to act as if it didn't. The big reason it sticks out so much is because LOADS of people wanted a reason to be out in the world and do stuff, not just sit in Orgrimmar waiting for queues to pop.

[Deleted]

I already have a job. I don't want another job which is even more mindless and tedious, namely daillies. There's a million other things I'd rather do. Some people like them. Fine. What I object to is that these are partially or wholly a threshold to gearing to raid levels, and raiding is the bit I log on for. There's no way I'm going to spend the next x days (even if I could log on all those days) grinding from honored to revered for GL rep. It's a game, remember, and it's supposed to be fun. This isn't.

[Deleted]

The argument with "no reward without effort" is invalid as long as effort is only defined through questing which means dpsing. I'm a healer I love healing, healing is the only thing I like to do. After leveling to 90 I was just relieved, that I could cancel my DPS spec and switch back to resto, only to find out, I will have to dps again if I want to be competitive.

I'm not saying doing dungeons forever was the optimal way, but at least it was a possibility to get what I needed by doing what I like most. That's everything I have to say to the akward "choice" argument.

So find a friend to do the daily quests with and heal him. Best overall solution to that would otherwise be to indroduce companions like in SW:TOR, having either a DPS, tank, or healer role depending on what you prefer.

---------- Post added 2012-10-10 at 10:09 AM ----------

I already have a job. I don't want another job which is even more mindless and tedious, namely daillies. There's a million other things I'd rather do. Some people like them. Fine. What I object to is that these are partially or wholly a threshold to gearing to raid levels, and raiding is the bit I log on for. There's no way I'm going to spend the next x days (even if I could log on all those days) grinding from honored to revered for GL rep. It's a game, remember, and it's supposed to be fun. This isn't.

So ignore the dailies and raid in heroic dungeon gear.

[TheWerebison]

I already have a job. I don't want another job which is even more mindless and tedious, namely daillies. There's a million other things I'd rather do. Some people like them. Fine. What I object to is that these are partially or wholly a threshold to gearing to raid levels, and raiding is the bit I log on for. There's no way I'm going to spend the next x days (even if I could log on all those days) grinding from honored to revered for GL rep. It's a game, remember, and it's supposed to be fun. This isn't.

Again, you don't HAVE to do this. Dailys are not a threshold for raiding, and saying so is just silly. Do dungeons. You'll get better stuff, and then you'll get into LFR and raiding.

Honestly, people do tend to treat this just a little oddly. Folks, I support taking the VP stuff out of rep, but to say that you CAN'T do any raiding without that VP gear is just plain folly.

[jbombard]

Heroics give you a chance for loot, JP gear is guaranteed, a reward for your efforts of at least trying. RNG should be slightly more rewarding than guaranteed rewards, because they are RNG, but all in all it's 5 item lvl difference and I see both gear as the same... Both will do fine for raiding in both normal and LFR mode.

Actually no you won't be getting in to heart of fear with any justice gear. It isn't a stepping stone it serves no real purpose except to get you into mogushan vaults a little faster(and guess what honor gear does that equally well but also has free PvP stats), but make no mistake about it you will need every piece of LFR and heroic gear in remaining slots to get into heart of fear.

Soloable dailies give valor, rep, and charms. Yet group content gives you a tiny bit of valor and justice. If they are not going to give rep and charms then they need to jack up the valor and justice you get for doing them and make the justice gear actually work something to make them a comparable activity to dailies.

[Glorious Leader]

If the gear you need doesn't drop, there's JP gear which is basically just as good. The system you praise so badly to buy gear is still there, even though you like to act as if it didn't. The big reason it sticks out so much is because LOADS of people wanted a reason to be out in the world and do stuff, not just sit in Orgrimmar waiting for queues to pop.

Except that it's not just as good and again I'm compelled to continue doing the dungeon until I get it. The system to buy the gear is piss weak by comparison and for no good reason. It sticks out like a sore thumb because it a wholly regressive change. All of it is. Even the stupid change to daily dungeons where you now have to go back to doing 1 a day. It has nothing to do with people being out in the world although that may be why they have designed the system. I mean that's an extremely poor and uncreative way to go about it. dailies are piss poor at everything they do. They were never designed to have this much reward tied to them and they only do now because it's a prod to get people out into the world. Well that's shitty. It ruins my dungeon experience and it doesn't really accomplish what blizzard was after. People finish their dailies, ignore the world for the quest they need to do (they may as well be instanced at that point) and then had back to org.

---------- Post added 2012-10-10 at 08:13 AM ----------

Actually no you won't be getting in to heart of fear with any justice gear. It isn't a stepping stone it serves no real purpose except to get you into mogushan vaults a little faster(and guess what honor gear does that equally well but also has free PvP stats), but make no mistake about it you will need every piece of LFR and heroic gear in remaining slots to get into heart of fear.

Soloable dailies give valor, rep, and charms. Yet group content gives you a tiny bit of valor and justice. If they are not going to give rep and charms then they need to jack up the valor and justice you get for doing them and make the justice gear actually work something to make them a comparable activity to dailies.

Christ even hitting lfr level is a bitch now. JP gains are so fucking little in these dungeons. If you get lucky with a bunch of drops in the dungeons well congratulations. This is a complete 180 reversal on most decisions they've made in the history of warcraft and isn't in spirit with the "choice" that mists was supposed to offer us. People defending them... I don't know.. I just don't know..

[Deleted]

Actually no you won't be getting in to heart of fear with any justice gear. It isn't a stepping stone it serves no real purpose except to get you into mogushan vaults a little faster(and guess what honor gear does that equally well but also has free PvP stats), but make no mistake about it you will need every piece of LFR and heroic gear in remaining slots to get into heart of fear.

Soloable dailies give valor, rep, and charms. Yet group content gives you a tiny bit of valor and justice. If they are not going to give rep and charms then they need to jack up the valor and justice you get for doing them and make the justice gear actually work something to make them a comparable activity to dailies.

You enter heart of fear with raiding gear from vaults. >.<

I never said JP gear would last you through all the raids, I said it would be enough to make you ready for raids, aka LFR and Mogu'shan vaults, which will then progress you further from there.

[TheWerebison]

Actually no you won't be getting in to heart of fear with any justice gear. It isn't a stepping stone it serves no real purpose except to get you into mogushan vaults a little faster(and guess what honor gear does that equally well but also has free PvP stats), but make no mistake about it you will need every piece of LFR and heroic gear in remaining slots to get into heart of fear.

Soloable dailies give valor, rep, and charms. Yet group content gives you a tiny bit of valor and justice. If they are not going to give rep and charms then they need to jack up the valor and justice you get for doing them and make the justice gear actually work something to make them a comparable activity to dailies.

Well yeah, HoF and Terrace have higher ilvl requirements than MV. You're meant to go into MV before you go into the other two. And if I remember, due to questing purposes, one of those HAS to come before the other. It's about progression. Heroics > LFR or raiding > harder raids.

[Glorious Leader]

You enter heart of fear with raiding gear from vaults. >.<

I never said JP gear would last you through all the raids, I said it would be enough to make you ready for raids, aka LFR and Mogu'shan vaults, which will then progress you further from there.

Essentially back to tiered raiding. Boy I hope those guilds who get burnt out raiders don't mind going back to farm old content to gear their replacements back up. They can always farm their sub par JP gear I guess. The non raiders well they can go fuck themselves.