World First Race:

[Sughs]

10 do count, If a 10 man guild gets the world first they will have 1# in all sites and progress acknowledge by everyone or not it will be a fact. And no, i am not a Paragon fanboy. I never liked theme.

[Keyur]

Make it a Alliance vs Horde fight instead of 10 vs 25?

Ally vs Horde isnt that hot now a days

[Deleted]

It's okay, I misread it as your opinion at first anyways, so I were no better.

Hehe Yeah, I should have been clearer, my bad.

As for seperate races... I think a large majority of the raiding community do not see any of the sizes superior to the other, which means a very tiny, but vocal majority make this out to be a huge problem. People say about 90% of the current raidingguilds are 10 man, which suggest close to 90% of those players do not see 25 man as the superior choice. Meaning they either prefer 10 man, or they do not care if it's 25 or 10 man. Notice I said "close to 90% of those players"(close to 90% of those 90% in other words). There is obviously a few people raiding 10 man that would much rather do 25, but if we were talking about a large % of them, we wouldn't be having this many 10 mans around.

In general, people do not like being looked down on. In this case meaning they would pick the format that would benefit them but not belittle them. Being confident in their own choice, which for a large majority is 10 man, they consider themselves equal to those who have picked 25 and is obviously confident enough in this belief/themselves that they continue running the format no matter how much some 25 man raiders try to belittle them.

Very good points. I think though that the belittling is going both ways, and I think it's a real shame.

I'm actually one of those who have been stuck doing 10 man since T12 even though I far prefer 25 man, because I can't raid early enough for most guilds and so many former 25 man guilds have gone to 10 man now for various reasons. I think you're spot on about feeling confident in one's choice (though in my case I didn't really have a choice) and I just don't enjoy 10 mans or find them particularly motivating.

I genuinely believe that it's impossible to make the two versions equally challenging, so it seems most realistic to me to just think of them separately altogether regardless of my personal opinions on their relative difficulty. But I'll stop flogging that particular dead horse now

[Repefe]

They really don't have differing definitions. You're kinda stretching here. We both know that "faster" and "more frequently" mean the same thing: releasing content patches more often. If you have 12 months, releasing 4 patches over those 12 is both faster and more frequent than releasing 3 patches, overall and on average.

To me faster and more frequent don't mean the same thing. It's like saying 1 and 1.5 are the same number. So there is no "we" in how you understand meaning of those two expressions.

[dakalro]

I agree Paragon is in the tougher league now where there is 10 times as many guilds as 25 man raiding guilds to compete with. Also as another poster said 10 man raiding guilds are struggling to even down the 1st boss on heroic.

On the Premier league I am going for Paragon and B league going for Envy.

Paragon will have 0 competition in 10 man, 0. There was no real hardcore guild pre-them in 10 man.

[Darsithis]

Keep it civil, guys. Enough with the "butthurt fanboy" crap

[Deleted]

I agree Paragon is in the tougher league now where there is 10 times as many guilds as 25 man raiding guilds to compete with. Also as another poster said 10 man raiding guilds are struggling to even down the 1st boss on heroic.

On the Premier league I am going for Paragon and B league going for Envy.

By the end of this tier the ratio of 10 to 25 will be much higher than 10:1. That means nothing, cause not all of those guilds are competitive guilds.

As another poster said “10 man raiding guilds are struggling to even down the first boss on heroic” eh?
Look at Paragon now :P

You people are experts.
The fact that Paragon steamrolled the first 3 heroics 16 hours after the race started for so many other 10 man teams proves the obvious.
That 10 man content is not tougher. Quite the opposite!

On one side I am sad that Paragon will get this world first 10/25 (there is no such race, but since blizzard is encouraging this false impression...), as a 10 man.
It will mean that 25s will keep falling apart, only at an even faster pace.

On the other side it will prove that during the past, 10 mans although severely outnumbering 25 mans, were losing the races not because their content was harder, but because 25s were the better teams.

The margin at which Paragon will clear the content from the second fastest guild (obviously a 25), will define how much easier 10 man content actually is.

[Ryme]

I remember Ensidia getting a first kill in 10 man in Cata and being ignored by the community because it was a 10 man. We have to be fair here.

It was still counted, it was even front page mmo-c news. It was just like one of the first bosses, so people moved on once the next ones were killed. Once they got cockbocked in 10s (overtuned 10 man boss) they went back to 25 and still lost, so no one cared.

[Deleted]

Why is Paragon even there, this should just be 25man world firsts.

Still this mindset with people. 25 man is not harder.

For arguments sake, I could say that 10 mans matter more, since they have ALOT, ALOT more competition. There are thousands of more serious 10 man guilds than 25 mans.

[Kelimbror]

To me faster and more frequent don't mean the same thing. It's like saying 1 and 1.5 are the same number. So there is no "we" in how you understand meaning of those two expressions.

Lol wut? That makes absolutely no sense. And in the context of your argument, they are the same thing. Please give me a situation where releasing content faster is not more frequent or v/v.

I will follow that up by saying there is never a situation where 1 is 1.5. Your logic is invalid.

[dakalro]

Guys if Paragon gets world 1st 10man it doesnt mean 10 man is easier since they were the best guild at 25 mans. So basically u need another guild to win.

Paragon's winning is not relevant for that. When the 2nd kill will happen is.

[Deleted]

It was still counted, it was even front page mmo-c news. It was just like one of the first bosses, so people moved on once the next ones were killed. Once they got cockbocked in 10s (overtuned 10 man boss) they went back to 25 and still lost, so no one cared.

Lol, they just had the team ready for 25s...
And think better before you talk.
Cause the first heroic boss in Cataclysm expansion to be defeated, was Halfus Wyrmbraker 10 man, a boss that was the flagship of the arguments of 10 man lovers, regarding how ovetuned 10 mans were compared to 25s in tier 11!
The irony eh?
Ensidia roflstomped halfus in 10 heroic, and all 10 man guilds were complaining about how ovetuned he was :P

[Keyur]

looks like this thread turned out into 10 vs 25 and For the Paragon

Lets get some real, If Paragon will get world first...

Does it count as world 1st 25? - NO
Does it count as world 1st 10? - Ofcourse
Does it count as world 1st? - Absolutely Yes

[Ryme]

Lol, they just had the team ready for 25s...

Regardless, they lost, no one remembers who came 2nd onwards.

And think better before you talk.

The irony.

Cause the first heroic boss in Cataclysm expansion to be defeated, was Halfus Wyrmbraker, a boss that was the flagship of the arguments of 10 man lovers, regarding how ovetuned 10 mans were compared to 25s in tier 11!
The irony eh?
Ensidia roflstomped halfus in 10 heroic, and all 10 man guilds were complaining about how ovetuned he was :P

I'm not sure how this is relevant to anything and I'm not even certain it's true, Maloriak was the only fight people complained was overtuned in my memory, but please, continue and explain for me.

[stomination]

Thank god I put 15 hours into raiding last night so I can be better than all those scrubs who only raid 4 hours a night due to jobs. Like really guys you need to step up and get a sugar momma or daddy. Or hell use your own parents!

And think about it I beat all of you twice. I beat you before the game came out when I was doing the beta bosses all the time.

[dakalro]

10 do count, If a 10 man guild gets the world first they will have 1# in all sites and progress acknowledge by everyone or not it will be a fact. And no, i am not a Paragon fanboy. I never liked theme.

They'll have the WF 10 man. Just like the 1st 25 man will have WF 25 man.

I've cleared MV normal on 2 chars, one 10 one 25 and they're nowhere near the same difficulty on normals, they're just different. I expect the same on HCs. 25 man requires some more planning, 10 man requires good rosters. So far 10 was simpler but easier to wipe to. 25 just had some extra logistics issues to get over the required DPS (how to split your dps properly)

[Deleted]

Thank god I put 15 hours into raiding last night so I can be better than all those scrubs who only raid 4 hours a night due to jobs. Like really guys you need to step up and get a sugar momma or daddy. Or hell use your own parents!

And think about it I beat all of you twice. I beat you before the game came out when I was doing the beta bosses all the time.

u know that some ppl spend theire vacation to raid the first week? Some of them can be theire own boss? A your rly that jealous?

[Deleted]

Thank god I put 15 hours into raiding last night so I can be better than all those scrubs who only raid 4 hours a night due to jobs. Like really guys you need to step up and get a sugar momma or daddy. Or hell use your own parents!

And think about it I beat all of you twice. I beat you before the game came out when I was doing the beta bosses all the time.

Whats your point to troll with that shit in world first thread? Most people in hc guilds do have jobs or study anyways.

[Hermanni]

I think it's about time you people started applying some logical thinking and stopped arguing about what counts and what doesn't. 10-man and 25-man are, among other things, very different, and you should just consider them to be two separate leagues, divisions or whatever term suits best.

[Deleted]

Regardless, they lost, no one remembers who came 2nd onwards.



The irony.



I'm not sure how this is relevant to anything and I'm not even certain it's true, Maloriak was the only fight people complained was overtuned in my memory, but please, continue and explain for me.

Lol so there were no complains about halfus eh?
And Maloriak was the only boss that 10 mans complained as being overtuned eh?
Then what was all that fuss about most fights being harder in 10 in tier 11?
Shouldnt it be "Maloriak was harder in 10 plz fix"?
Twisting the truth to dodge the obvious!

Ensidia, a guild that lost the race and because of that according to your logic nobody cares...
A 25 that was not even the best 25 for that tier...
Scored the first heroic kill in the world and in 10 man mode, on a boss that most of the 10 man supporters, were complaining for being overtuned!

Now paragon will once more, after halfus incident, and Ragnaros heroic incident prove the obvious to the 10 man supporters.
10 man could never win a race, cause 25 had the better teams, although the content was easier for them