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  1. #561
    Deleted
    World First = Guild that kills the Boss for the first time without cheating.
    Doesnt matter if they are US, EU, Asian, 10man, 25man, playing with eyes closed or playing from the ground of the sea.

    Compare it to sports: If there is a marathon and you get beaten by someone because he has better shoes or because you had to wait at the start for a few minutes then you still can't claim victory although you may have been faster than him under equal conditions... who crosses the finishline first it the winner thats all! (except the other guy used doping)

    Paragon has been the best guild in the world since late Wotlk and 10man seems to be a little bit harder or at least Gara'jal is a huge contentblocker for 10mans. Saying a worldfirst by them isn't legit is just plain ignorance.

  2. #562
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Liebchen View Post
    Paragon has been the best guild in the world since late Wotlk and 10man seems to be a little bit harder or at least Gara'jal is a huge contentblocker for 10mans. Saying a worldfirst by them isn't legit is just plain ignorance.
    Just use terms world first 25m and world first 10m, the discussion gets so annoying...

  3. #563
    Quote Originally Posted by Liebchen View Post
    World First = Guild that kills the Boss for the first time without cheating.
    Doesnt matter if they are US, EU, Asian, 10man, 25man, playing with eyes closed or playing from the ground of the sea.

    Compare it to sports: If there is a marathon and you get beaten by someone because he has better shoes or because you had to wait at the start for a few minutes then you still can't claim victory although you may have been faster than him under equal conditions... who crosses the finishline first it the winner thats all! (except the other guy used doping)

    Paragon has been the best guild in the world since late Wotlk and 10man seems to be a little bit harder or at least Gara'jal is a huge contentblocker for 10mans. Saying a worldfirst by them isn't legit is just plain ignorance.
    Will of the emperor will be nerfed on 10man once a 25 man raiding guild downs him on 25 man. Apparently it would be almost impossible for paragon to down him at this stage without a little more gear. So maybe next reset.

  4. #564
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    To be fair, at least on MMO-C, the majority seem to support 10 mans counting as world first now: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...rld-First-race
    To be fair, as it was already pointed at you, when you make a poll, try to include all options and not only the ones that your hurt feelings due to lack of respect for the precious 10 man size, some people, including the OP have.

    If in that poll OP had some common sence, he would add a third option

    Smt like:

    "Neither of the above, there are 2 different world first races since we have 2 different raid sizes"

    But judging from your previous replies to this thread i don't expect you to aknowledge the obvious.

  5. #565
    Quote Originally Posted by Archidamos View Post
    To be fair, as it was already pointed at you, when you make a poll, try to include all options and not only the ones that your hurt feelings due to lack of respect for the precious 10 man size, some people, including the OP have.

    If in that poll OP had some common sence, he would add a third option

    Smt like:

    "Neither of the above, there are 2 different world first races since we have 2 different raid sizes"

    But judging from your previous replies to this thread i don't expect you to aknowledge the obvious.
    I seriously have troubles reading your posts sometimes.

    When was this pointed "at me"? I may have missed it.

    "the ones that your hurt feelings due to lack of respect for the precious 10 man size, some people, including the OP have"

    I'm sorry? I'm not sure what you're saying, but you sound bitter about it.

    "But judging from your previous replies to this thread i don't expect you to aknowledge the obvious."

    Care to point out some of my replies that indicate this? Genuine question, I don't like the thought of coming across closed minded where I can help it, so I'll try to correct that.

    As for the poll, yeah, I guess a third "neither" option would be a good boost, still doesn't invalidate that many people have accepted 10s as a valid world first though, does it?
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  6. #566
    Lets put it this way if 10 mans were easier then 25 mans, guilds we've never heard of before would be leading the race right now, well coming 2nd after paragon at least.

  7. #567
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    self-selected sample best sample

  8. #568
    Quote Originally Posted by DreamCast View Post
    Lets put it this way if 10 mans were easier then 25 mans, guilds we've never heard of before would be leading the race right now, well coming 2nd after paragon at least.
    You're assuming that the skill level and dedication of the average high end 10 man guild is equal to that of equivalent 25 man guilds. Paragon are an exceptional guild, arguably the best in the world over the last few years, and they will likely dominate now that they've gone 10 man. Most of the rest of the best guilds in the world are 25 man, at least IMO. You'll likely see that over the rest of the tier in the large gap between Paragon and second place. This isn't necessarily true in Korea though, so that's something to note.

    Regardless, 10 and 25 man guilds fight different bosses and shouldn't be compared. If Paragon get world first this tier it'll be 10 man world first, simple as that. If they don't, like for example because one or two bosses are more difficult or impossible on 10 man, they'll still be racing for 10 man world first after some other guild finishes 25 man.
    Last edited by Gondlem; 2012-10-11 at 02:32 PM.

  9. #569
    Deleted
    2 races, 1 for 10m and 1 for 25m. Makes sense and isn't such a big deal?

  10. #570
    People are always going to break things down as much as possible to promote the unique snowflake feeling. Just gotta let them have it all, you can choose what you put value in and what you classify as a significant accomplishment.

    World First
    World First Alliance
    World First Horde
    World First 25 man
    World First Alliance 25 man
    World First Horde 25 man
    World First 10 man
    World First Alliance 10 man
    World First Horde 10 man
    EU First
    EU First Alliance
    EU First Horde
    EU First 25 man
    EU First Alliance 25 man
    EU First Horde 25 man
    EU First 10 man
    EU First Alliance 10 man
    EU First Horde 10 man
    US First
    US First Alliance
    US First Horde
    US First 25 man
    US First Alliance 25 man
    US First Horde 25 man
    US First 10 man
    US First Alliance 10 man
    US First Horde 10 man
    World First <insert time zone here>
    etc. First etc.

    Signed,
    Nerio
    (World First 10 man, US First 10 man, and World First Alliance Stone Gaurd; World First Alliance and US First Alliance Feng)

  11. #571
    Quote Originally Posted by xlightning View Post
    Still i can't understand how people can say a guild is not WF when they kill it first, just because it is 10 man. For me, and more people everyday 10 do count.

    Anyway, Blizzard should end this and make one new unique size. 15 / 16 / 18 man, what they think it's better and that's it. 1 unique raid size.
    Because the 10 and 25 tiers are too different between them.

    I do think they deserve recognition, so from now on ill count both WF, 10 and 25 myself, separate but both important.

    As i already said, the community as a whole decided at that time that the 25 man was the big race.

    Why would they make only one size when they went AWAY from that in the past? 10 and 25 are fine, you can choose between them as youn like.

  12. #572

  13. #573
    Deleted
    Lol. Race over, nothing to see here.

  14. #574
    Deleted
    GJ Paragon, inb4 10m is easier than 25

  15. #575
    Stood in the Fire gathanasiou's Avatar
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    gg paragon wp

  16. #576
    WP Paragon, looking forward to video.
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  17. #577
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dominian View Post
    Rofl a 10 man guild as second. You really pay attention to the world first races!
    Rofl, someone who mocks and looks down on others for not being on the cutting edge of information regarding an elite, obscure aspect of a videogame. You really know what matters!

  18. #578
    Deleted
    Grats Paragon, impressive stuff.

  19. #579
    The race is over, even though i don't like Paragon much at least it's a victory for EU, Horde and 10 man.

    Only a small victory though, i don't know if other people see this tier as 3 different races because of the gated system but i see it as a 3 stages race. And Paragon just won the first one. 2 more to go.

  20. #580
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeophor View Post
    It is nonsensical. There are two races. Period.
    Actually there aren't. There are many, many races. Thousands even. But in the end they are all part of one, bigger, overarching race.

    This topic is titled: "World First Race".

    While it is quite possible to break that race up into a number of smaller, subraces, the World First Race by definition does not make any distinction between raid sizes. Not in any kind of official capacity at any rate, not any more, since Blizzard officially removed any distinction between 10 and 25 achievements (something you specifically have attributed to their alleged "incompetence").

    By definition the race is won by whomever kills the final boss first, be it in 10 man or 25 man.

    Now while I agree that you can look at any subgroup within that whole and judge those by themselves, that is your choice. It doesn't make that the universal definition of the World First race.

    Quote Originally Posted by zeophor View Post
    You're talking about some third, abstract race that you've constructed by combining the two actual races.
    I am talking about the (singular) World First race. It is indeed the combination of the 25 man World First race and the 10 man World First.

    Quote Originally Posted by zeophor View Post
    Such a race has very little point given that the actual races are fundamentally different.
    And if it is not a "given" that they are fundamentally different? Have you even considered that possibility?

    The only thing that would make them fundamentally different in the context of being able to have them competing against each other in a World First race would be if one was significantly easier than the other. Which would mean that people playing in the one format would have an advantage over people playing the other.

    My premise (that which to you was nonsensical) is that you can only label the decision by Blizzard to effectively turn the World First race into a combined 10/25 man event as "incompetent" if you can demonstrate that one format is demonstrably harder than the other. Given that the difference in difficulty between the two formats is sufficiently small so as to allow the two formats to compete directly, there would be nothing "incompetent" about it.

    As long as both formats provide a viable option for winning, there is plenty of point in letting them compete.

    Quote Originally Posted by zeophor View Post
    Being first to kill 10 man version of some boss is completely orthogonal to being the first to kill 25 man version. They're two very, very different things
    Hyperbole much?

    Quote Originally Posted by zeophor View Post
    It is two different races, you're the one trying to treat it as one.
    You are arguing semantics here, and are quite frankly being unreasonable.

    You can argue about it until you are blue in the face. The fact is that whether you are a 10 man or a 25 man guild, you are both competing at the same time towards the same objective - being the first guild in the world to stand on top of the corpse of a certain opponent. Even though the two groups may take a slightly different path, they are still racing against each other. From that perspective there is one race.

    From another perspective, it is fine to look at it as 2 different races within that one race.

    All I am saying is that just because you consider 10 man raiding to be illegitimate does not make it objectively so.

    Trying to sing your tired tune of this being yet more evidence of "Blizzard Incompetence" is old and annoying. Hell, if it weren't for this alleged "incompetence" Paragon would probably no longer be able to compete, and where would that leave us? By putting 10 man raiding on a par with 25 man raiding, Blizzard have arguably made the race a lot more interesting.

    Now if it does turn out that doing 10 man or doing 25 man gave a guild a significant advantage towards being world first, and if that then resulted in a number of guilds switching formats in order to facilitate the objective of scoring a world first, then yes, I would agree that would be an issue. Whether it would classify as incompetence or not is another matter which quite frankly doesn't need to be considered until it can at least proven that one raid format holds some kind of an advantage over the other. And at this stage that is going to be very difficult to prove.
    Last edited by Raelbo; 2012-10-11 at 04:09 PM.

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