Solution to dungeon Quitting & Ninjas.

[Puri]

I don't see why you consider #1 even as a problem. Player leaves, another one joins. No need to punish or reward anyone.

#2 is indeed a tricky one. First of all, before anyone thinks about a new solution, there already is one implemented and it works fine in LFR. So Blizzard only would have to apply it to dungeons, or at least LFD, as well. But I don't expect this to happen, because it would cost developer time.
So we are stuck with the loot system as it is. And actually it is quite fair, because right now it only let's you roll on items with your mainstat(s for druids and other hybrids) on it. So very likely you will be using this item, for your current spec or your offspec.

For example if a healing trinket drops with int and a spirit proc, a mage also can roll on it. Should he not be allowed to, even if he can replace a green trinket and gains x dps?
Of course you can argue that a healing class has more benefit from it than a mage. But if you go into the "more beneficial" road, you also have to consider several other things: Are both main chars? Does one raid, and the other doesn't? How great it is a update? How many times did one run this instance to get the item? Is this item for your primary or you secondary spec? Which one of them spends more time playing? And another tricky question: Who deserves the item more?
These are all questions you would have to answer if for example you would be a wow-god distributing items by hand, or to be more realistic if you would be on a loot council.

But there is a major difference in LFD compared to guild groups or raids: You will never see the other player again. So you will gain nothing if he gets the item.

So to reduce your stress in dungeons, I would not expect the other players to pass on items they can roll on. So if they do, consider yourself lucky, but if they don't just forget it. Eventually you will get the item, or even a better one.

[Deleted]

i like your solutions, just got ninjas.. pff.

[Deleted]

Frankly the only thing that is going to stop selfish people from dropping the party is if the penalty for leaving a party is too painful to bear. It would have to be something strong like, "Cant Que up for an hour, give you 15 min death weakness penalty and can't cue up for that dungeon again until tuesday."

But the downside to that is if I get in a party of totally incompetant noobs who can't get the basic mechanics down then I am punished for trying to preserve my own sanity.

Good idea. Yes, true, but that is very rare I think. Also, it'd promote finding new friends you could run dungeons with, which would take a bit of politeness and friendliness and so on. The dungeon community as a whole would improve with a little more rules.

Sounds harsh, but that's just the way our species work. It needs rules and encouragement to behave well.

---------- Post added 2012-10-11 at 03:28 PM ----------

I don't see why you consider #1 even as a problem. Player leaves, another one joins. No need to punish or reward anyone.

I guess we don't share mindsets, then.

Say I'm a dps, and finding a dungeon takes 40 minutes. I finally join one, and after two bosses, nearing my beautiful reward at the end of the dungeon, the tank or healer leaves because they got an item they were after. Because tanks or healers are more rare, it might take the group another 10-20 minutes before we may continue. Sometimes it's faster, but still.

I just don't see how anyone can feel that this is acceptable.

If you don't want to punish selfish people, fine. But at least reward the people who stick through it and don't ditch others.

[Puri]

I guess we don't share mindsets, then.

Say I'm a dps, and finding a dungeon takes 40 minutes. I finally join one, and after two bosses, nearing my beautiful reward at the end of the dungeon, the tank or healer leaves because they got an item they were after. Because tanks or healers are more rare, it might take the group another 10-20 minutes before we may continue. Sometimes it's faster, but still.

I guess we don't even share the same game, then. Because if anyone drops your group during a dungeon, you will be put on top of the dungeon queue. Mostly the missing role joins instantly, sometimes you have to wait two or three minutes. No way it takes 10-20 minutes when you are in a dungeon.

[DeadmanWalking]

I still don't get how i'm obligated to stay through an entire dungeon with people i got randomly matched with tho, please explain.

Edit: It's not like you have to go back to Orgrimmar and yell for 45 minutes that you want someone to kill 2 more bosses in an heroic.
You just click the queue button again, and boom a new player enters your group.

No its not that simple, especially if you lost a tank or a healer. When the tank or healer leaves it leaves 4 people sitting around a dungeon waiting when they shouldn't be waiting because you were too rude to consider the needs of the group. Its supposed to be a symbionic relationship, everyone works togeather to clean the dungeon and reap the rewards, not a parasitic relationship where everyone works togeather to beat a boss and then you take your loot and leave everyone hanging.

Its about decorum and manners. If I am walking down the street and have to go bathroom I could just take a crap on your car windshield instead of looking for a bathroom, "Hey I had to go and it wasn't my car window, what are you bitching about?"

---------- Post added 2012-10-11 at 02:36 PM ----------

I guess we don't even share the same game, then. Because if anyone drops your group during a dungeon, you will be put on top of the dungeon group. Mostly the missing role joins instantly, sometimes you have to wait two or three minutes. No way it takes 10-20 minutes when you are in a dungeon.

It could take up to 5 minutes to replace a tank, and if you have to replace a tank or healer after every boss thats an additional 10-15 minutes waiting for replacements per dungeon. Don't act like it doesn't effect anyone else, because it does. Your pursuit of 'efficient use of my time collecting my loot' just screwed everyone elses efficiency in the pursuit of their loot.

[Yoshimiko]

I don't honestly see an issue with either of these.

Look, dungeons are meant to gear up your characters. It's unfortunate that dps queues are so long - but because of that if I(as a 371 Monk Tank) want to gear up my healer, I'm sorry but I'm not queue in my 335 healer set. I'm a good tank who's mean run time is roughly 8-11 minutes on each dungeon.

Leaving after an item is recieved is normal. If you run for X, You get X, and now you have no reason to finish. I've never EVER seen a healer/tank leave thanks to cache.

All around I just don't see the issue.

[Thage]

Penalty for Solution #1 seems unnecessarily draconian, OP, but extending the Bag of Helpful Goods idea like you presented would be a nice incentive to stick around.

[Deleted]

No and no.
#1: Why doing dungeons? => because you can get something. What? Gear, Points, Gold. But you get the Gold and the points only after you finished the dungeon while the gear drops from particular bosses. So there is a problem with ppl leaving after bosses? It seems there is not enough worth in the points and the gold right now, so dungeons are ONLY for gear-looting atm. Solution: Give the ppl more points, more gold or something of worth their time.

#2: What is a ninja? Are tanks/healers ninjas because they roll need on damage gear? That's retarded. There is too much solo content to making anyone sane to just focus on their tank/heal spec. And then again: Do you think the role within the group is the rule about what you do with your gear after that group disbands? It would make sense if you are planning on doing much more together in the same group and hence will staying in your roles for quite some time. But since dungeons nowadays are 10-20min slaughterfests with 4 people you might never benefit from again (perhaps you think of them when you are doing your daily quests in your tank/heal gear...). I say no. In todays dungeons everyone wants gear. And they don't want it because equiping it will make this actual random group much more powerful but because you might do better in your next group or in your raid group or with your quests or whatever you do. That acual group will not benefit at all - most ppl don't even equip it while running the dungeon (reforge / gems / enchants...). NO this actual group is not the reason you gear up. And with that all ethics about role-related loot is gone. You do it in your guild groups for a reason. That reason however is not given in random groups and the content + LFD itself denies that reason.
Ninjas are now ppl who are rolling on things they don't need or don't even want. They roll on it for gold or just being an asshat.

Blizzards problem: they cannot solve it because the first group has viable and good reasons to roll on different things. They did it in LFR because it didn't hurt the system and those items are not as mandatory as heroic items are (if you get a new 90 you will gear up in heroics and hence those items are the first step of really gearing some kind of "gear-set") and much less available - you cannot swap specs and completely farm your gear in LFR without being an ass for many many weeks but you might can do it (at least with green quest items) in heroics and gear up fast (and even here you will earn hate for being so low geared).

[Deleted]

I don't honestly see an issue with either of these.

Look, dungeons are meant to gear up your characters. It's unfortunate that dps queues are so long - but because of that if I(as a 371 Monk Tank) want to gear up my healer, I'm sorry but I'm not queue in my 335 healer set. I'm a good tank who's mean run time is roughly 8-11 minutes on each dungeon.

Leaving after an item is recieved is normal. If you run for X, You get X, and now you have no reason to finish. I've never EVER seen a healer/tank leave thanks to cache.

All around I just don't see the issue.

You've got to be joking.

Look, I can see why you would attempt to defend this kind of behaviour if you do it yourself, but don't pretend like it's not wrong.

The vast majority of people I get grouped up with stay until the end of the dungeon, and they do it a) because of the chance of more rewards, and b) because it's the right thing to do.

Whenever someone leaves the rest always go 'wtf?', 'sigh', 'ninja', or something along those lines. It's perfectly clear that the majority of players consider it an obvious responsibility to stay until a dungeon is finished or until the group for some reason falls apart.

This wasn't even up for discussion a couple of years back. A person who thought that it was okay to quit on their group would get flamed and be considered a noob or ninja.

[Puri]

It could take up to 5 minutes to replace a tank, and if you have to replace a tank or healer after every boss thats an additional 10-15 minutes waiting for replacements per dungeon. Don't act like it doesn't effect anyone else, because it does.

It could even take 500 minutes to replace a tank. Or three weeks. No one of us has any statistics to back our opinion.

I have never waited more than three minutes if a tank or healer leaves in the middle of a dungeon in endlevel heroic dungeons.
And don't act like people are leaving in every dungeon or even after every boss, because they don't. It happens more often than during cata or wotlk, because then you ran the dungeons for the valor point reward, yet I still don't consider it a gamebreaking problem.

I bet I have waited longer for a tank or healer who were afk than for a replacement in a dungeon group in my wow career.

[Gahk]

People have to understand the LFD is not a replacement for custom groups but they are an option for people who don't have time or enough friends/guildies to do them with. When you sign up for a random group you have to accept that you''ll be grouped with people that won't have the same mindset or needs as you. If they get what they wanted and see no problem with leaving the dungeon, why do you think you are entitled to force them to continue? Do you really think continuing a dungeons with someone who doesn't want to be there is better than with the next in line? The bottom line is, if you want a group to work the way you want to, you can always make a custom group.

[reemi]

Sometime I left groups because I know it's not going to be fun.

I don't have time to waste with retards or ultra-noobs players.

If I'm going to be penalized for that, I'll just wait and be AFK then leave when I can.

[Deleted]

Idea: Just hold off with the lootrolls until the dungeon is finished. even better, you don't get to SEE what dropped until the dungeon is finished.

[Drfireburns]

You've got to be joking.

Look, I can see why you would attempt to defend this kind of behaviour if you do it yourself, but don't pretend like it's not wrong.

The vast majority of people I get grouped up with stay until the end of the dungeon, and they do it a) because of the chance of more rewards, and b) because it's the right thing to do.

Whenever someone leaves the rest always go 'wtf?', 'sigh', 'ninja', or something along those lines. It's perfectly clear that the majority of players consider it an obvious responsibility to stay until a dungeon is finished or until the group for some reason falls apart.

This wasn't even up for discussion a couple of years back. A person who thought that it was okay to quit on their group would get flamed and be considered a noob or ninja.

110% correct. In Vanilla, TBC, and part of WotLK, people were just inclined to stay, even if nothing was going to drop for them. It's just what you did. Etiquette is missing from this game anymore.

[Vladik]

...
The vast majority of people I get grouped up with stay until the end of the dungeon, and they do it a) because of the chance of more rewards, and b) because it's the right thing to do.

...It's perfectly clear that the majority of players consider it an obvious responsibility to stay until a dungeon is finished or until the group for some reason falls apart.

This wasn't even up for discussion a couple of years back. A person who thought that it was okay to quit on their group would get flamed and be considered a noob or ninja.

You do realize that this is a different system than "a couple of years back", right? You used to have to go and look for a replacement, now you hit a button and get one in under a minute. If someone leaves, it shouldn't be an issue with anyone- they're only going to see you once, and vice-verse, there's no need to be vindictive against someone simply because they want to do something else.
Once you get to the point of only needing 1 or 2 items for a heroic, and being valor capped for the week, it is mostly useless to continue with the group- and is better to let someone else who might need the next bosses' stuff take your place if your desired item doesn't drop.

Gear "stealing" is another issue. The need / greed system is broke a couple ways right now- to the point of it letting me need on unusable items on a cloth wearer (Yes, at 90.).

[Drfireburns]

Sometime I left groups because I know it's not going to be fun.

I don't have time to waste with retards or ultra-noobs players.

If I'm going to be penalized for that, I'll just wait and be AFK then leave when I can.

That's different. If you join a random with a bunch of fucktards, then I'd leave as well. If you join a group of all friendly people who are hammering that dungeon out, then stay. Even if you don't win something, it's still good to stay.

[DeadmanWalking]

And don't act like people are leaving in every dungeon or even after every boss, because they don't. It happens more often than during cata or wotlk, because then you ran the dungeons for the valor point reward, yet I still don't consider it a gamebreaking problem.

Except for the people here who say they split after the boss/loot they are targetting drops, right? If someone in your town is pooping on car windshields should you just live with it or confront them or call the police to try and stop this behavior and make an example that this undesireable behavior is unnacceptable? That's what this is about, showing selfish people that this behavior is not admirable and not acceptable. You got help downing your boss, now scratch my back and help me down my boss. We are not here to serve your purposes, we are not NPCs and this is not a single player game. Help us efficiently get gear because we helped you efficiently get gear.

People bitch and moan about how wow has lost its community but don't want to act like a community exists when it comes to what what we want.

And if you are saying a dungeon run takes 8-11 minutes and you quit after first boss then where is the harm in hanging with a party for an extra 8 minutes? You bitch and moan when you 'complete the content' but you are unwilling to experience all the content because it is standing in your way of an extra gear drop a day.

[Puri]

Except for the people here who say they split after the boss/loot they are targetting drops, right?

Yes, exactly. They are the minority, and will stop queuing as soon as they got the item.

If someone in your town is pooping on car windshields should you just live with it or confront them or call the police to try and stop this behavior and make an example that this undesireable behavior is unnacceptable?

So if you want an answer to this completely unrelated and unfitting analogy: If not a minute later someone is completely removing the mess, why would I care?

We are not here to serve your purposes, we are not NPCs and this is not a single player game. Help us efficiently get gear because we helped you efficiently get gear.

No, you are here to serve your purposes. If you had no incentive to run the dungeon, why would you be there? Isn't it just as unfair to leave the dungeon at the end when someone of your group didn't get the item he wanted and you got it? Wouldn't it be fair to queue for heroic dungeons with your group until everyone has everything he wanted?
And if you say efficiently, does it mean if some DD only pulls 7k dps, it is more justified to leave, because it was not efficient enough?

[Detheavn]

It's not about gearing other people up, it's about finishing the dungeon with the people you sign up to finish a dungeon with.

Silly me, I thought you were talking about ninjas as well

LFD isn't intended to be a system where you pop in, get your item, and pop out. It's intended to be a system to make it easier for people to meet up and complete dungeons together.

I don't see it as that. It's an easy way to team up to find a random or even a specific dungeon, in the case there's this specific item you are still aiming to get. There's an added reward at the end if people choose to stay for finishing the dungeon, if people choose to do so. (for random that is )

Leaving is just incredibly rude and slows everyone else down. The fact that it sometimes takes a little bit of time to finish a dungeon is just something you have to deal with if you want the chance to improve your character.

I don't think leaving is rude, seeing that you don't have to wait all that long to get a replacement, especially when a DPS leaves. If anything LFD has taught me not to expect any of the randoms to stay or for them to roll need on my main spec for their off spec.

I wish more people had been there, back in vanilla when we still had to bloody walk to the instance because there was no means to summon or port there. They would probably understand why it's not that big a deal for a person to leave in LFD.

Imagine if people in a guild just left after each boss they needed while on a raid.

Other than LFR or maybe the odd PUG, you cannot compare a raid with LFD. No guild would have you if you did.

[Rhianne]

No and No.

As has been mentioned. #1, people will just afk till they're kicked to get around it.

#2: Lets use the lfr satchel as an example. On day 1 of the LFR release solo queueing tanks had to wait 1 hr 48minutes-3 hours (times I saw mentioned on these forums). Tanks had to queue as tanks if they wanted tank loot, they couldn't queue as a dps. Now lets switch that for LFG. Tanks can only get tank loot and nothing for OS. What's their incentive to run the dungeon? They'll gear up fairly quickly for their tank set, but now they can't queue as tank and still have a chance at DPS gear, they have to switch. This is going to have a HUGE impact on the queue times for dps. Hell most tanks will just stop running rather than deal with that queue, or work out a deal with their friends. Either way the DPS queue time is going to at least double. So what's the benefit to the dps here? Have to wait longer to get a chance at your item, and you have to wait longer to get vp/jp. Compare that to now, where the queues are shorter, your vp comes faster, but you might lose a roll. No benefit in making it MS only.