Varok Saurfang for Warchief!

[Crashdummy]

And because there's guys like Garrosh, the position of warchief is a problem. There's a reason we have democracy. It might not be the best, but at least we can speak out against our leaders and put them out of office when we feel they don't do their job right.


Hitler is a good example. And we have to make sure something like that doesn't happen again. But why are you using the Hitler example in favor of dictatorship? It's like saying, even in a democracy there could be people abusing the system in such a way that they elevate themselves into a position where they alone can rule, so we might as well just have a dictatorship right from the beginning.

More power to the people is always better.



Why is a democracy not possible in WoW? There are certainly societies in WoW that do not have a warchief or a monarch. The council of three hammers seems to be pretty close to a democracy.

You should read the conversations you are trying to jump into. Nobody is saying that a dictatorship or monarchy is better than democracy, of course that democracy is 10000 times better, but a democracy doesnt FIT in the fantasy lore of Azeroth and specifically in the horde (although it doent really fit in the alliane either).

So, with democracy out of the question, the Warchief position is not the problem, the problem is Garrosh.

Re read the previous conversation before jumping in please.

---------- Post added 2012-10-11 at 08:07 AM ----------

Garrosh does command everything that's why he get's in a grump.
If it were truly as simple as you've just layed it out to be then every non-Orcish race would've done precisely the same. They haven't because they know despite the fact it's wrong what they are doing that it's still violating a superiors order and thus putting themselves in danger because of treason.

garrosh doesnt command everything, thats why he couldnt force the Forsaken armty to do his will when Sylvannas opposed him, and that's why he will fall when the other leader rebel agianst him. he only command the other races armies as long as their leaders decide so.

Where is this democracy bs you keep bringing up coming?
Changing the powers of the Warchief does not suddenly elevate things to a democracy nor do I know why such a point is remotely relevant.
No you cannot stop such a person becoming High King, but again that is neither what we're talking about or a position that we know how much power it will have.

Now we're just going in circles.
So to stop another Garrosh coming to power you would do nothing? If that's the case then the Horde have learned nothing and are inviting further calamity.
Reduce the direct control it gives over other races so that they can have a say in their own politics for example. You need to remove the roots not just the plant as they say.

It is what we are talking about. The High King will be a King, and any king has the chance to abuse his powers, unless they are limited by a democratic system (meaning the real poweras taken out of him and given to a democratically elected entity). Since the democracy is out of the question, then the problem cant be solved.

To stop another Garrosh coming into power i would not change the Warchief position, i would start a rebelion and kill the idiot.
Reducing the control of the Warchief DOESN'T FIT THE LORE. Guys we are in a fantasy game here, not in the real world.

---------- Post added 2012-10-11 at 08:10 AM ----------

Because He is...
Only Malfurion is more powerful than him, Thrall is competing for 2nd most strongest living person in Azeroth
However due to his 'insecurity' issues and flaws and mistakes he still lose to much weaker people (like twilight prophet or Fandal), debating someone is powerful need conditions like clean fight etc, lore-wise rogues are very weak in combat but excel at assassin, rogue "shouldn't" be able to duel warriors but they can easily kill them off-guard

This is just not true, and you have no proof or any reference about it. All we know is that its the most powerfull shaman. He is nowhere near the power of Velen or the god possesing Varian.

[Deleted]

You should read the conversations you are trying to jump into. Nobody is saying that a dictatorship or monarchy is better than democracy, of course that democracy is 10000 times better, but a democracy doesnt FIT in the fantasy lore of Azeroth and specifically in the horde (although it doent really fit in the alliane either).

So, with democracy out of the question, the Warchief position is not the problem, the problem is Garrosh.

Re read the previous conversation before jumping in please.

First of all, while Azeroth, especially kingdoms like Stormwind are basically medieval monarchies, it's certainly unfamiliar to see a democracy or something similar, but it's not impossible. Like I've said several times, there are example of more democracy-like societies in WoW,

But that has nothing to do with whether dictatorship is a good idea or not. No it's not people like Garrosh who are the problem. It's because of people like Garrosh that dictatorship is a problem.

Stormwind is lucky to have such a king, to have had such great kings in the past. But still, even monarchy is a problem. It becomes a problem when a guy like Arthas or Perenolde shows up.

I don't see Stormwind becoming a democracy in the near future, if that's what's bothering you. But the orcs can still try to move away from their primitive traditions. It certainly hasn't helped them much so far.

[Crashdummy]

First of all, while Azeroth, especially kingdoms like Stormwind are basically medieval monarchies, it's certainly unfamiliar to see a democracy or something similar, but it's not impossible. Like I've said several times, there are example of more democracy-like societies in WoW,

But that has nothing to do with whether dictatorship is a good idea or not. No it's not people like Garrosh who are the problem. It's because of people like Garrosh that dictatorship is a problem.

Stormwind is lucky to have such a king, to have had such great kings in the past. But still, even monarchy is a problem. It becomes a problem when a guy like Arthas or Perenolde shows up.

I don't see Stormwind becoming a democracy in the near future, if that's what's bothering you. But the orcs can still try to move away from their primitive traditions. It certainly hasn't helped them much so far.

The problem is that the Warchief position is more close to a monarchy than to a dictatorship, its a dictatorship now only because garrosh is a dictator, if Varian was a dictator, the Stormwind monarchy would also become a dictatorship.

In any non democratic system someone like garrosh is a problem, hell, even in democratic system is, that's the whole point, we cant change to anything better without introducing democracy-like systems, which from my point of view have nothing to do in WoW.
So the answer is NOT to change the system.

And no, i dont think a democracy in WoW is remotely posible.

[Deleted]

The problem is that the Warchief position is more close to a monarchy than to a dictatorship, its a dictatorship now only because garrosh is a dictator, if Varian was a dictator, the Stormwind monarchy would also become a dictatorship.

The warchief position is based on strength, monarchy is based on heritage. But yeah, monarchy is basicly dictatorship.

In any non democratic system someone like garrosh is a problem, hell, even in democratic system is, that's the whole point, we cant change to anything better without introducing democracy-like systems, which from my point of view have nothing to do in WoW.
So the answer is NOT to change the system.

Like I've said before, you seem to think, "let's just leave it a dictatorship, because even in a democracy those people can cause trouble"
I don't think that's even remotely clever.

And no, i dont think a democracy in WoW is remotely posible.

I don't see any reason why, and as I've said before, there is the council of three hammers in the game.
Or this here
http://www.wowwiki.com/Council_of_Six

[Scummer]

To stop another Garrosh coming into power i would not change the Warchief position, i would start a rebellion and kill the idiot.
Reducing the control of the Warchief DOESN'T FIT THE LORE. Guys we are in a fantasy game here, not in the real world.

Ah it's nice to just quote one bit now it makes this easier .
Rebelling against Garrosh doesn't stop the possibility of another Garrosh. It just stops Garrosh.
Tell me why lessening the powers of Warchief is against the lore?
Does it not strike you that in the face of Garrosh's downfall the leaders might want to enforce the idea of less power to one Orc so that they aren't reliant on Thrall being charge?

[Thundermoose]

Riko with Gamon as his advisor.

I would faction change whatever Alliance alts I have asap if that happend.

[sam86]

They are part of the same Alliance, next door neighbours and have deep ties that reach far back. Gnomes, humans and dwarves are probably the races closest to each other in the whole game.

That still is over-limit interfere, no matter how close my neighbors are, if I don't want a chair in MY house, they have no rights to force that on me
Moira might started a civil war, or unit Bronzebear/Dark Iron in 1 factions, she may be a bad dictator, but as long she doesn't cross her borders, no non-dwarf have any right to say a thing about what happens in her border

This is just not true, and you have no proof or any reference about it. All we know is that its the most powerfull shaman. He is nowhere near the power of Velen or the god possesing Varian.

So standing as the 5th role to fulfill the earth element, holding the maelstorm fraction from the Azeroth side, ending the hour of twilight threat, being in Yesra vision to save all azeroth, is things that average people do?
Boy Azeroth has very weird standards for average people

[Deleted]

That still is over-limit interfere, no matter how close my neighbors are, if I don't want a chair in MY house, they have no rights to force that on me
Moira might started a civil war, or unit Bronzebear/Dark Iron in 1 factions, she may be a bad dictator, but as long she doesn't cross her borders, no non-dwarf have any right to say a thing about what happens in her border

I bet the dwarves and gnomes will not complain so much about that.

[Trassk]

The warchief mantle isn't the problem. The problem comes from those who have the mantle. And its a common fact the orcs as a people are, as mannaroth put it, a misbegotten race, a race that is held so easily by its rage and want for battle and conquest, that it knows nothing better, and this goes for the orc who comes warchief.
This is why Thrall was the only exception to this, because unlike all other warchiefs before and after him, he was raised differently from orcish society, and was thus able to rule with wisdom and equal standing with all other horde races, an orc who was different.

Anyone who things your average orc would make for a better leader is high on something, the average orc, even high ranking orcs, are ones needing to be kicked up the ass to keep them from doing stupid things.

this is why, if Thrall is not becoming leader of the horde and the orcs once more after mists, it needs to be an orc who is as wise and belligerent as he is, with whos firm on keeping things in line, but wise and fair to all other races of the horde, making it one again.

[Deleted]

The warchief mantle isn't the problem. The problem comes from those who have the mantle. And its a common fact the orcs as a people are, as mannaroth put it, a misbegotten race, a race that is held so easily by its rage and want for battle and conquest, that it knows nothing better, and this goes for the orc who comes warchief.
This is why Thrall was the only exception to this, because unlike all other warchiefs before and after him, he was raised differently from orcish society, and was thus able to rule with wisdom and equal standing with all other horde races, an orc who was different.

Anyone who things your average orc would make for a better leader is high on something, the average orc, even high ranking orcs, are ones needing to be kicked up the ass to keep them from doing stupid things.

this is why, if Thrall is not becoming leader of the horde and the orcs once more after mists, it needs to be an orc who is as wise and belligerent as he is, with whos firm on keeping things in line, but wise and fair to all other races of the horde, making it one again.

Then we're back to "dictatorship isn't the problem, it's only a problem when you have a bad dictator".
So it's perfectly fine to have your life dictated by a person that means well.

No.

[Trassk]

Then we're back to "dictatorship isn't the problem, it's only a problem when you have a bad dictator".
So it's perfectly fine to have your life dictated by a person that means well.

No.

Its not a dictatorship if the person leads with wisdom. Thrall was not a dictator, I dunno how you can even suggest that bs.

A leader who marshals there people against the wrongs in there society and leads them to be better then they are is not a dictator. One who pins his people down, subjugates them and uses fear to lead is a dictator.

[Crashdummy]

The warchief position is based on strength, monarchy is based on heritage. But yeah, monarchy is basicly dictatorship.


Like I've said before, you seem to think, "let's just leave it a dictatorship, because even in a democracy those people can cause trouble"
I don't think that's even remotely clever.



I don't see any reason why, and as I've said before, there is the council of three hammers in the game.
Or this here
http://www.wowwiki.com/Council_of_Six

I dont know how you still dont get what i am saying. I am NOT sayin "let's just leave it a dictatorship, because even in a democracy those people can cause trouble", i am saying "since IMO a democratic system has no place in the Horde leadership, and any other non democratuic form of goverment known have the same problems of dictatorship/monarchy, then the problem doesnt lies in the Warchief position, but in the guy in it".

I hope you can understand it know, because this is getting really tiresome.

Also, if you think the Kirin Tor has ANYTHING resembling the horde then you have ZERO understanding about the WoW's lore. The Kirin Tor has been closely watched and intervened by the Dragons for ages.

---------- Post added 2012-10-11 at 11:21 AM ----------

Ah it's nice to just quote one bit now it makes this easier .
Rebelling against Garrosh doesn't stop the possibility of another Garrosh. It just stops Garrosh.
Tell me why lessening the powers of Warchief is against the lore?
Does it not strike you that in the face of Garrosh's downfall the leaders might want to enforce the idea of less power to one Orc so that they aren't reliant on Thrall being charge?

Rebelling against Garrosh stops Garrosh and sends a message to the future Warchief that the horde is not their property, and if they behave like Garrosh they WILL be killed by your own comrades.


I have said this so many times its getting boring, any lessening of the Warchief power that DEOESN'T turns it into some form of dermocracy would have ZERO impact in stopping another Garrosh to step up and do something like these. Hell, even when the horde was rules by a council a guy like Garrosh took over the horde and mess with it.

Is it really THAT hard to understand? I dont know if i am failing to explain it clearly or you are failing to understand it properly.

[Deleted]

i am saying "since IMO a democratic system has no place in the Horde leadership, and any other non democratuic form of goverment known have the same problems of dictatorship/monarchy, then the problem doesnt lies in the Warchief position, but in the guy in it".

That is basically like saying "let's just leave it a dictatorship, because even in a democracy those people can cause trouble".
You're saying exactly that.
You cans say the same thing in Nazi Germany.
"Well the problem isn't the form of government, it was the guy that was in power. So let's just pick a different dictator."

A democratic system has no place in the Horde leadership? Right, because Garrosh wouldn't want that.

Also, if you think the Kirin Tor has ANYTHING resembling the horde then you have ZERO understanding about the WoW's lore. The Kirin Tor has been closely watched and intervened by the Dragons for ages.[COLOR="red"]

I didn't say the Horde is anything like the Kirin Tor. I said the Kirin Tor has certain democratic facettes.

Its not a dictatorship if the person leads with wisdom. Thrall was not a dictator, I dunno how you can even suggest that bs.

A leader who marshals there people against the wrongs in there society and leads them to be better then they are is not a dictator. One who pins his people down, subjugates them and uses fear to lead is a dictator.

First of all, "wisdom" is not something you can measure. Wisdom is not something you can put your finger on. It's very subjective.
But yes, even if we agree on someone being "wise", yes, of course it's still a dictatorship.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictator

A dictator is a ruler (e.g. absolutist or autocratic) who assumes sole and absolute power (sometimes, but not always, with military control or bribes) but not officially sanctioned by heritage, as in an absolute monarch.

[Crashdummy]

So standing as the 5th role to fulfill the earth element, holding the maelstorm fraction from the Azeroth side, ending the hour of twilight threat, being in Yesra vision to save all azeroth, is things that average people do?
Boy Azeroth has very weird standards for average people

First of all, i never said he was an average guy. Second, i did say he was the most powerfull shaman. Third, he was channeling the power of the 5th role, he doesnt HAVE the power of the 5th role. Fourth, he was in Ysera's vision because he was the one that was going to channel the power of earth and thus was a key character in defeating Deathwing. Fifth, he was not holding the maelstrom alone, you need to read books and not only stay with what a cinematic in WoW that is very limited to what it can show tells you in order to know the lore.

Again, he is not as powerfull as the eredar that spent years at the same level of Archimonde and Kil'jaeden and he is not as powerfull as one of the greatests warriors in Azeroth EMPOWERED by a freaking GOD. Hell, i doubt he is as powerfull as the inmoratal Tyrande that has elune's favor.

---------- Post added 2012-10-11 at 11:31 AM ----------

That is basically like saying "let's just leave it a dictatorship, because even in a democracy those people can cause trouble".
You're saying exactly that.
You cans say the same thing in Nazi Germany.
"Well the problem isn't the form of government, it was the guy that was in power. So let's just pick a different dictator."

What? No, saying that since we CANNOT HAVE A DEMOCRACY any other form has the same problem of a stupid man getting the power IS NOT the same as saying that this would happen even in a democracy. You have serious reading comprehension problems.
And yes i can say the same about the Nazi Germany, since Hitler came to power in a democracy. You need to learn some history too.

A democratic system has no place in the Horde leadership? Right, because Garrosh wouldn't want that.

I didn't say the Horde is anything like the Kirin Tor. I said the Kirin Tor has certain democratic facettes.

the Kirin Tor hs some democratic facets, but the horde cant. You seem to think that both factions can get the same because they are somewhat alike.

[Scummer]

Its not a dictatorship if the person leads with wisdom. Thrall was not a dictator, I dunno how you can even suggest that bs.

A leader who marshals there people against the wrongs in there society and leads them to be better then they are is not a dictator. One who pins his people down, subjugates them and uses fear to lead is a dictator.

Actually in Thrall's case he's a benevolent dictator - http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/benevolent_dictatorship.
What you've described is fascism or totalitarianism.

[Deleted]

First of all, i never said he was an average guy. Second, i did say he was the most powerfull shaman. Third, he was channeling the power of the 5th role, he doesnt HAVE the power of the 5th role. Fourth, he was in Ysera's vision because he was the one that was going to channel the power of earth and thus was a key character in defeating Deathwing. Fifth, he was not holding the maelstrom alone, you need to read books and not only stay with what a cinematic in WoW that is very limited to what it can show tells you in order to know the lore.

Again, he is not as powerfull as the eredar that spent years at the same level of Archimonde and Kil'jaeden and he is not as powerfull as one of the greatests warriors in Azeroth EMPOWERED by a freaking GOD. Hell, i doubt he is as powerfull as the inmoratal Tyrande that has elune's favor.

---------- Post added 2012-10-11 at 11:31 AM ----------



What? No, saying that since we CANNOT HAVE A DEMOCRACY any other form has the same problem of a stupid man getting the power IS NOT the same as saying that this would happen even in a democracy. You have serious reading comprehension problems.
And yes i can say the same about the Nazi Germany, since Hitler came to power in a democracy. You need to learn some history too.

A democratic system has no place in the Horde leadership? Right, because Garrosh wouldn't want that.




the Kirin Tor hs some democratic facets, but the horde cant. You seem to think that both factions can get the same because they are somewhat alike.

You don't know what you're talking about and you're constantly contradicting yourself. It's really ironic that you're the one accusing me of having reading comprehension problems, when you seem to be the one that's lacking in that area.

I brought up the Kirin Tor example because you said there can't be democracy in WoW. Then you come along and bring the Horde into it.
That's just one example of you not making any sense.

[Scummer]

I get the feeling nobody here actually know's what a democracy is.

I don't know where Crashdummy is getting the idea from that changing the powers of Warchief has anything to do with it, and no the Kirin Tor is not a democracy it is an aristocracy as is the vast majority of factions and races.

[Deleted]

I get the feeling nobody here actually know's what a democracy is.

I don't know where Crashdummy is getting the idea from that changing the powers of Warchief has anything to do with it, and no the Kirin Tor is not a democracy it is an aristocracy as is the vast majority of factions and races.

I didn't say it was a democracy, just that it certainly has democratic facettes, which to me makes it incomprehendable while some people think democracy in WoW is IMPOSSIBLE.

I'm not sure if it's an aristocracy though. Jaina was kind of promoted to the role of leader.

[Scummer]

I didn't say it was a democracy, just that it certainly has democratic facettes, which to me makes it incomprehendable while some people think democracy in WoW is IMPOSSIBLE.

Ofc it's not impossible. People are just very conservative for whatever reason even though the reason is sound which is why I've stopped debating the issue, as I know that nothing will resolved in this debate. I personally see no merit to keeping it the same, but then again there appear to be people who think Thrall is immortal and thus the position holds no flaws.

[Dreknar20]

I think he's mourned enough in Northrend and should return and become Warchief!

and die of a heart-attack 5 days after gaining the throne?

---------- Post added 2012-10-11 at 03:59 PM ----------

Ofc it's not impossible. People are just very conservative for whatever reason even though the reason is sound
s.

Sound to who?
Democracy isnt always the best form of government.