Jaina and Dalaran in 5.1 [Heavy lore spoilers]

[delus]

Theron's "old allies" speech might in reference to the draenei. What Velen and the draenei did for them was pretty monumental, after all.

The naga were allies of Rommath and co, not so much the blood elves at large.

I'm actually reminded of the speech in silvermoon. "Lyria Skystrider says: Can you not see what is happening? Open your eyes. It is laid bare for all to see. What is this new alliance? Why have we betrayed our allies of old, only to take up with the enemies of all that live?" http://www.wowpedia.org/Lyria_Skystrider

[Dreknar20]

Except Garrosh sees "disloyal" as questioning his decisions, not outright working against the Horde.

Baine has already proven himself a traitor to the Horde. The rest are not the most loyal of people.

As far as I can tell/hear, the "suspects" were not working to attack Dalaran but somewhere else.

[Asmalya]

Baine has already proven himself a traitor to the Horde. The rest are not the most loyal of people.

As far as I can tell/hear, the "suspects" were not working to attack Dalaran but somewhere else.

So being against mass murdering of families is betrayel of the horde...ya thats one view how mad garrosh is dont you think?

And no they didnt attack Dalaran BUT they used it. When Dalaran is supposed to be neutral at all cost. This is the second time they do this behind the back of the council.
Someday you have to pay the bills you collect.

[Ersula]

Nah, it's probably some ghost, spirit or whatnot talking, just like Uther. She would have no reason for all of that if he was still alive.

Just because the that is how the Audio files are numerically ordered in the patch, does not mean that is how they happen chronologically.

[Hyde]

On; Dalaran remaining a neutral city

I don't see why it's necessary. We haven't seen all of the content in 5.1; it's entirely feasible that the Horde could have a full-scale city in Northrend for themselves as well. Either Garrosh's metal fortress in Borean Tundra, or one of the Forsaken towns on the east coast could be upgraded. We might even get to see what Varok's doing.

Of course, this is all speculation, but it'd still be nice.

e; Wait. TAUNKA'LE

I think a purged Kaskala would be an awesome Horde capital in Northrend.

[Viradiance]

I'm really starting to think every race is going to end up with their own scenario for this... Or at least hoping.

[Berethos08]

I can understand it of course. If I was Jaina and after what Garrosh did to theramore, I would not want anyone who follows him willingly to be in the city I just made home. But same time, Aethas and his sunreavers are held in a bad position and were not part of this attack, and yet Jaina doesn't give a shit no more, becoming just a clone of Varian instead of considering Aethas was held against it.

Are you talking about this second attack?

The only "proof" I've seen that Aethas was not involved was him saying that he was not involved. Even the guilty will proclaim their innocence.

What other proof is there that Aethas was not involved in some fashion, even if all it was to do was to willingly look the other way?

The attack on Darnassus involves the Bell used later (either they take it from Darnassus or use it on Darnassus)...an item that is in the hands of Garrosh. Therefore, those involved in the attack on Darnassus are very likely to either be Horde sympathizers or straight up loyal to the Horde, and those that let them get in and return to Dalaran must also have similar leanings.

Out of the entire Kirin Tor in Dalaran, which group most closely fits that description, and has already exhibited a member that is not loyal to the Kirin Tor's ideals and was willing to betray them?

Oh sure, it could all be circumstantial evidence and someone trying to implicate the Sunreavers, or not caring that they are implicated in the attack...

But where is the proof that the Sunreavers weren't involved, outside of their own declarations of innocence?

[BirdLady68]

20 bucks ainduin isn't dead

Wow doesn't like Children being slaughtered. Notice how young children can never be killed. Perhaps that is why Blizzard gave him a growth spurt last xpac so he could die?

[tripleh]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6863276519 person makes a good point. Anduin some how gets rezzed and returns later on . Wouldn't surprise me if metzen worked it in that way.

[Scummer]

So Alliance is at fault...where? If by we weren't being bestest buddies with the Horde then...yeah...we'll shoulder some responsibility.

The point is more that Varian was a spark. Despite settling matters that he had started his animosity towards the Orcs had lent itself to the tension.
But yeah, to compare his role in starting the conflict to Garrosh is a completely different , as despite Varian's anger he didn't want open war.

[Deleted]

sorry but the alliance is full of bigots, as lor'themar says.

what part about wish and dream dont you understand :P?

aslong as we are being obvious... your avatar is green not pink

[Sorraxe]

If the ressurection would require an another soul, and to end thw War i think a Horde character would be the sacrifice. That would truely end the war. Question will be who could it be?

[Monteverdi]

If the ressurection would require an another soul, and to end thw War i think a Horde character would be the sacrifice. That would truely end the war. Question will be who could it be?

Thrall. Or, more likely, Vol'jin. If, of course, a sacrifice was needed and it's not something else that happens. For instance, Wrathion ends up with one of the Ata'mal crystals at the end of the 5.1 leg of his questline. Considering the 5.2 leg is entitled 'the Two Princes', it's extremely plausible that this Ata'mal crystal, and by extension the Naaru, could be involved in Anduin's resurrection (assuming, of course, that Anduin actually does die). This would also unique place Anduin in a position to lead a Naaru army against the Burning Legion in a future expansion, something that Wrathion may very well intend.

[Deleted]

I take it all back Blizzard, I take it all back :`)

[Shadowspire]

Ok..the aetheas debate is dumb. The sound files clearly say he didn't know. Was he turning a blind eye? More then likely no he was probably busy and yes some rogue sun reaver did open a portal for the horde. This does look bad no matter how u put it since because of the the horde "kills" anduin. So the fact a rogue sunreaver causes a very close persons death is bad no matter how u look at it.


Now from a leader pov.what she does is semi right. Here is what I imagine she tries to do.
Speaks with atheas.
Ask him to pick a side.
Declares sunreavers traitors.
Ignores other council members pleas
Starts to purge dalaran and the kirintor of sunreavers and those asdosiated with them.
Tosses in the Kirin tor with the alliance.

That is basically what happens and has proof.
The proof atheas has done is this.

Does not keep his eye on his sunreavers.
Refuses to seperate from the horde.
Rebels against jaina.

[Keristrasza]

Does that mean dalaran will be off limits to the horde?

The only way I could see that happening is if they made a copy of Dalaran and planted it back in the creator that was made when it took off for Northrend. The city floating in Crystal Song however I highly doubt, because its technically stuck in the past, as the events taking place in Northrend are not up to speed with what has already occurred.

On; Dalaran remaining a neutral city

I don't see why it's necessary. We haven't seen all of the content in 5.1; it's entirely feasible that the Horde could have a full-scale city in Northrend for themselves as well. Either Garrosh's metal fortress in Borean Tundra, or one of the Forsaken towns on the east coast could be upgraded. We might even get to see what Varok's doing.

Of course, this is all speculation, but it'd still be nice.

e; Wait. TAUNKA'LE

Because blizzard most likely is not going to waste time going back to Northrend and edit a neutral city to fit the current "lore" when the rest of that area doesn't match up. I mean come on ... they didn't even add flight (nor effects of the cataclysm) to Ghostlands and Azuramyst because they are connected to the Outlands server despite being "part of Azeroth".

[Zuben]

But where is the proof that the Sunreavers weren't involved, outside of their own declarations of innocence?

It used to be 'innocent until proven guilty'. It seems Garrosh isn't the only one moving towards fascism.

[iscalio]

yeah yeah right, the blood elves will have a moment in the sun and then be forgotten again by the devs yet again, just like it happened with tbc, and still the alliance will have dalaran and a warmongering now batshit crazy Jaina.

Trassk, based on your posts it is clear that you care about the story, and even more so that you are an admirer of a certain noble flavor of the Horde. Unfortunately the latter seems to impede your ability to do justice to the former. You keep describing Jaina as a sociopathic warmonger, even though it is blatantly obvious that this is a massive exaggeration. She has become less tolerant, more ruthless, and certainly less enamored with the Horde. And you can dislike her for that. But by calling her "batshit crazy" you are just depriving words of their meaning and hurting the story by jumping to extremes instead. You are not being honest to the story.

[Trassk]

Trassk, based on your posts it is clear that you care about the story, and even more so that you are an admirer of a certain noble flavor of the Horde. Unfortunately the latter seems to impede your ability to do justice to the former. You keep describing Jaina as a sociopathic warmonger, even though it is blatantly obvious that this is a massive exaggeration. She has become less tolerant, more ruthless, and certainly less enamored with the Horde. And you can dislike her for that. But by calling her "batshit crazy" you are just depriving words of their meaning and hurting the story by jumping to extremes instead. You are not being honest to the story.

I've read tides of war, and seen how Jaina did infact go batshit crazy. I even agreed that well her rage and hatred was justifed for what Garrosh did, her sudden intolerance and ruthlessness brought on by the book just makes her into a clone of how Varian was to begin with in the story, and I disliked his character just as much as i dislike Jaina she is now, her throwing around her weight against the sunreavers when they faught with the kirin tor, now because of her personal grudge against Garrosh, is more demeaning to the story then anything I can say about it.

And I am honest to the story, just because it conflicts with your view on it doesn't make mine wrong. I'm pissed off they took Jaina down this road because of trying to satisfy the feckless whiners crying for war on the threads. Now she's no better then Varian use to be, and thats a sad turn of events, so I'll have something to say against it. A character wasted for the most demeaning people who play wow and don't understand or care for the characters at all.

I am also on the sunreavers side in this, Jaina making her personal war against the sunreavers because she doesn't have the balls to take care of Garrosh herself, the most powerful f**ing mage on azeroth, and she doesn't just teleport into orgrimmar (like she use to with Thrall) and one shot Garrosh, wtf is that about?

[Yogg-Saron, God of Death]

It used to be 'innocent until proven guilty'. It seems Garrosh isn't the only one moving towards fascism.

'Innocent until proven guilty' is a bit hard to enforce if the risk that while 'proof is being found', more horde troops could secretly be utilizing portals to get where they want.

It's not like the Sunreavers actively fought Garrosh's command to use the portals to assault the alliance.

And well, if they were threatened into letting it go, then it's still partially their fault for letting their allegiances hinder the fact that they are a part of a neutral city and organization. (until now neutral, I mean)