1. #27041
    Legendary! Vizardlorde's Avatar
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    So now calling someone a liar is immoral but lying to a whole country to achieve a personal goal is totally OK. Interesting...

  2. #27042
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    No. Im not blaming him for not changing it - im blaming him for being part of it. Did he consider black people inferior till the year of 1978?
    Your giving him one of two options. Change it, or leave it. You're suggesting that Romney should have given up his religious belief because his religious leaders weren't nice folks.
    Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.

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  3. #27043
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    Your giving him one of two options. Change it, or leave it. You're suggesting that Romney should have given up his religious belief because his religious leaders weren't nice folks.
    I think you just mentioned nearly every major religion to ever exist

  4. #27044
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    Your giving him one of two options. Change it, or leave it. You're suggesting that Romney should have given up his religious belief because his religious leaders weren't nice folks.
    Well, yes. If you have a belief system and the people in charge of the organization around that belief system have decided to embrace a stance that you don't agree with, yes you should leave. If you honestly buy into the whole system, then yes, you buy into all of it or you walk. But then, I really hate buffet religions.

  5. #27045
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slammin Shaman View Post
    I think you just mentioned nearly every major religion to ever exist
    Yes, and I think that's relevant. All religions have gone through bad leaders, some still have them. But having a poor leader doesn't make you a poor believer, after a while, the vast majority of religions that have practiced poor policies have revised them and gone on for the better.

    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    Well, yes. If you have a belief system and the people in charge of the organization around that belief system have decided to embrace a stance that you don't agree with, yes you should leave. If you honestly buy into the whole system, then yes, you buy into all of it or you walk. But then, I really hate buffet religions.
    There is an important distinction between the leaders of a religion and it's core dogma. While the leaders of a religion can dictate some worldly aspects and certain interpretations of the dogma, being of a specific faith does not imply you agree with that faith's leadership's decisions. And disagreement with those decisions shouldn't imply that one must leave the faith and start anew or give up your belief. History has shown that given time most of these organizations will change their stance to a more positive one. The Mormon Church did so.

    We don't know Romneys specific stance on the Mormon church's policies, and I don't think we need to. He may have had faith they would change their ways, he may have simply not cared enough to challenge them, he may not have had the power to challenge them, hell he might have been vocal in changing them behind closed doors. I personally don't think it matters. I'm deciding if I will vote for Romney not the Mormon church.
    Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.

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  6. #27046
    Old God Grizzly Willy's Avatar
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    If a racist stops being racist and is not racist for thirty years, are we going to still consider them inadequate for office because of it?

  7. #27047
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grokan View Post
    If a racist stops being racist and is not racist for thirty years, are we going to still consider them inadequate for office because of it?
    I doubt I would, but that would depend on if they've actually changed their ways or if they're simply not expressing it anymore. Everyone has bias in some way, shape or form, it's very natural for humans to do so. But it really depends on how you express that and act upon it. I mean I would probably regard someone more favorably who admitted to having bigoted thoughts and actively worked on controlling them than someone who claimed they'd never thought a bigoted thought in their life.
    Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.

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  8. #27048
    Old God Grizzly Willy's Avatar
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    I think that's reasonable. Though, I have never seen anything about Mittens being racist, so I can't say that he is now or that we need to look into it. It just seems like a non-issue.

  9. #27049
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grokan View Post
    I think that's reasonable. Though, I have never seen anything about Mittens being racist, so I can't say that he is now or that we need to look into it. It just seems like a non-issue.
    That's my opinion on it. He either holds his tongue on his thoughts well enough for me to feel that he's in control of what he thinks, or he doesn't think those thoughts often enough to matter. Either way, non-issue.
    Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.

    Just, be kind.

  10. #27050
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    That's my opinion on it. He either holds his tongue on his thoughts well enough for me to feel that he's in control of what he thinks, or he doesn't think those thoughts often enough to matter. Either way, non-issue.
    Or he goes along with things he does not believe in and just does what he is told. Or he is a racist.

  11. #27051
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    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    Or he goes along with things he does not believe in and just does what he is told. Or he is a racist.
    Unless you can prove it, it's not an issue.

  12. #27052
    Old God conscript's Avatar
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    I don't see Mitt's religion as being a big deal. I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up more since it is a pretty crazy religion. All religion takes a leap of faith, but some leaps are off the top of a house and some are from the grand canyon. Mormonism is from the top of freaking Everest if you can close your eyes and honestly be okay with one guy reading your religious text off gold tablets only he ever saw. But hey as long as it doesn't influence his decisions anymore than the GOP already bases their entire plan on the Bible, who cares. That reminds me, Ryan essentially said in the debate he has no issue forcing his religious beliefs on others through abortion regulation.

    Mormonism used to be racist but now has plenty of black members. I'm not going to fault the guy for the decisions of his religion decades ago. I'd rather fault the guy for constantly changing positions, his absolute blatant refusal to give a single example of a deduction or loophole being closed to somehow balance out his 20% tax cut, his support for abortion legislation, etc. You know, decisions that matter right now, not ones from the 70s.

  13. #27053
    Old God Grizzly Willy's Avatar
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    Right. There are more legitimate issues concerning Mittens other than his religion. Bringing it up, I feel, dilutes the actual issues.

  14. #27054
    Quote Originally Posted by Grokan View Post
    I think that's reasonable. Though, I have never seen anything about Mittens being racist, so I can't say that he is now or that we need to look into it. It just seems like a non-issue.
    I think the reason you've never seen anything about it is because no one in the media will say boo about his religion. For some bizarre reason, it's completely off limits.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-15 at 09:12 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by conscript View Post
    I'm not going to fault the guy for the decisions of his religion decades ago.
    Why not? People choose their religions, and Romney wasn't a passive participant, he was very active in the church. If someone's part of an active racist institution, enthusiastically endorses it, recruits others, and gives money, I think it's at least fair to ask them their position on the church's stances.

  15. #27055
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Why not? People choose their religions...
    I'd be asking questions if he hadn't been raised as a mormon. But he was. So I don't care about his particular religion.

    I'm more concerned about the essentially religious-based planks in the Republican platform.

    Let's all ride the Gish gallop.

  16. #27056
    Quote Originally Posted by belfpala View Post
    I'd be asking questions if he hadn't been raised as a mormon. But he was. So I don't care about his particular religion.
    I don't think, "I believe the things I was told as a child" is actually a great explanation. His feet should be held to the fire if that's all he's got to defend LDS racism.

    Quote Originally Posted by belfpala View Post
    I'm more concerned about the essentially religious-based planks in the Republican platform.
    Of course, but we can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time. Both are problems.

  17. #27057
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    I don't think, "I believe the things I was told as a child" is actually a great explanation. His feet should be held to the fire if that's all he's got to defend LDS racism.
    I don't think bringing LDS into it is a great idea. Perhaps just asking "to what extent do you/did you believe in certain stances LDS used to take" is fine. But that will be spun as Obama playing the race card. So maybe still not a good idea.

    Let's all ride the Gish gallop.

  18. #27058
    I'm referring to what I think press coverage should be, not campaign tactics for Obama. Depressingly, Obama remotely questioning LDS in any way would absolutely hurt him in the election.

  19. #27059
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    I'm referring to what I think press coverage should be, not campaign tactics for Obama. Depressingly, Obama remotely questioning LDS in any way would absolutely hurt him in the election.
    I just find it funny that Obama doesn't touch Romney's religion even though FOX News constantly refers to him as a radical socialist Muslim.

  20. #27060
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Depressingly, Obama remotely questioning LDS in any way would absolutely hurt him in the election.
    He gets attacked for a religion he doesn't even have...

    Ugh. Politics make me sick sometimes.

    Let's all ride the Gish gallop.

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