Jaina and Dalaran in 5.1 [Heavy lore spoilers]

[Wayne25uk]

I'm sure only one orc can be pissed off by Garrosh and that one orc is The Man that knows all see's all and cleaves all i am sure some people know who i am talking about right now

Mankrik!?
/10char

[Deleted]

when has garrosh ever offered to give resources to the alliance to stop fighting? when has garrosh ever been friends with a human?

also where is the source of garroshes anger? he has none other then stories of the internment camps

what does varian have to be angry about? he was enslaved as a gladiator BY THE HORDE, as a child he saw an orc his father was friends with RIP OUT HIS HEART AND THEN BURN HIS CITY TO THE GROUND, one of his father figures was killed by the horde in battle, his best friend grew up to be the lich king and killed his other father figure and then continued to commit genocide upon his people, his wife was killed by the workers who rebuilt stormwind DESPITE THE FACT THAT SHE WAS THE ONE WHO WANTED TO MAKE SURE THEY GOT PAID. and now his only son the only thing he cares about in the entire world is about to be killed by garrosh, or atleast he thinks he was killed.

so tell me even with all that varian is willing to have diplomatic meetings, offer resources, ally with and even lead horde forces like in stormrage, and not go all out lo'gosh when he sees a greenskin. wheras garrosh is going "ME WANT ALL OF AZEROTH ME CRUSH PINK SKINNED HUMANS"

so please tell me how varian is anything like garrosh

The fun thing you are right, and people keep saying varians is just as bad as garrosh. Really? how, even in the art of war garrosh, use barbarics tactics, forceing magnaturs in battle with kidnapping there children(wolfheart) he used a big nuke on teramore, killing all the civiliens. he in this x-pack will to something to be hated so much by just the rest of the hordes that will make them kill him, and he even used dalarans neutrality to get hordes soilders into darnassus

[Shodan30]

I bet you anduin turns into a narru and leads the army of light!

Heh....you alliance are so funny.

Heres an idea. Sure Garrosh has alot to do with massive tension between the horde and allilance, but since Anduin apparently is destined to fight against the legion, and if he dies, then the more realistic alternative, and one that would Completely piss off the alliance and keep the tension between the sides going, would be that The Dark lady raises him as a forsaken.

[artemishunter1]

I think Lor'themar's right on the mark. Alliance war mages are probably allowed to pass through Dalaran without any problem. It's only when it's Horde that there's a problem.

Nope. Dalaran was forever neutral. They did not even send their representative in Darnassus Meeting.

---------- Post added 2012-10-15 at 11:39 AM ----------

A frontal assault would be suicide though. While blood elves are generally stronger mages than humans (Due to natural affinity for it and longer lifespan to study), there are a few exceptions (Jaina is very strong; I'd rather not count the Guardians, since they get their power from a Council of Mages (Spellcasters now)), and though they are powerful, Dalaran has them far outnumbered.

As for the theft and Darnassus fiascos, the Focusing Iris was stolen by a few spies of Garrosh's. The majority of the Sunreavers, even Aethas himself (and Lor'themar, Halduron, and Rommath) had no idea it happened via Sunreaver aid, same with the portals (I believe; As there isn't a quest for us to steal the Bell-thing (to my knowledge), I am likely correct in the speculation that it was so secretive that those who could fight against it, meaning Aethas and the other Sunreavers, had no involvement in any of it).

entire army ended up in darnassus. not mages but soldiers. So, if sunreaver did not know about it, then they are just freaking blind

[Combatbutler]

Nope. Dalaran was forever neutral. They did not even send their representative in Darnassus Meeting.[COLOR="red"]

Jaina was protecting Darnassus with a shield, and a sunreaver disabled Jainas protection, so technically Jaina broke Dalarans neutrality first, but it doesn't matter.

entire army ended up in darnassus. not mages but soldiers. So, if sunreaver did not know about it, then they are just freaking blind

A single sunreaver would have been enough in some dark corner of the city or even outside the city walls.

[Justignoreme]

Heh....you alliance are so funny.

Heres an idea. Sure Garrosh has alot to do with massive tension between the horde and allilance, but since Anduin apparently is destined to fight against the legion, and if he dies, then the more realistic alternative, and one that would Completely piss off the alliance and keep the tension between the sides going, would be that The Dark lady raises him as a forsaken.

More forsaken fantasies. Cute, really is, but they are still rotting in the remains of Lordaeron. What's also cute is the fan speculation ending up quoting as fact that Anduin is leading this Army of the Light against the Legion. The "messiah" in Velen's vision was faceless and nameless, and it was one of many visions he had. Why you assume it to be factual and his vision of a second coming of the scourge completely wiping out all life to not be is beyond me.

---------- Post added 2012-10-15 at 05:06 PM ----------

Jaina was protecting Darnassus with a shield, and a sunreaver disabled Jainas protection, so technically Jaina broke Dalarans neutrality first, but it doesn't matter.

Security of the Divine Bell trumps neutrality. Horde are reprehensible filth and shouldn't be allowed to obtain such powerful artifacts. We *know* what they do with devices like Mana Bombs...

[Northem]

if they keep making alliance heroes go neutral il puke :/

I'm puking everywhere just thinking about that Alleria and/or Turalyon may become neutral, or simply that they do not support the Alliance to 100%.

Of course if after what happened (Theramore, Darnasus, Anduin, ...) Jaina, the Kirin Tor or Dalaran turn neutral again I'll shoot myself.

---------- Post added 2012-10-15 at 05:57 PM ----------

Nope. Dalaran was forever neutral. They did not even send their representative in Darnassus Meeting.

Dalaran was forever neutral...

was forever neutral...

neutral...

Recall that Dalaran is one of the seven human kingdoms founders of the Alliance.

Moreover Dalaran is more than a kingdom, Dalaran is the proof of the alliance between Humans and High Elves from ages ago ...

Dalaran has never been nor will be neutral, at least fully. The ties between the Kirin Tor and the Alliance are intrinsic.

Make no mistake, Dalaran and the Kirin Tor played the trick of neutrality only because of the threats that came from Northrend, was a matter of time that the kingdom of magicians return to the Alliance, and especially allowing those demonic elves and traitors (the sin'dorei) were on the magi council itself...

[Combatbutler]

Security of the Divine Bell trumps neutrality. Horde are reprehensible filth and shouldn't be allowed to obtain such powerful artifacts. We *know* what they do with devices like Mana Bombs...

That is a bit harsh, but true the horde as it is right now shouldn't get their hands on those artifacts, but it does not change the fact that Jaina herself broke neutrality first.

---------- Post added 2012-10-15 at 06:18 PM ----------

Make no mistake, Dalaran and the Kirin Tor played the trick of neutrality only because of the threats that came from Northrend, was a matter of time that the kingdom of magicians return to the Alliance, and especially allowing those demonic elves and traitors (the sin'dorei) were on the magi council itself...

Well the Kirin tor betrayed them first,by standing idly as Garithos wanted them killed so it doesn't really matter now does it? Not to mention it was the Kirin tor that came to Silvermoon shortly before the Northrend campaign asking for help, not the other way around.

[Northem]

Well the Kirin tor betrayed them first,by standing idly as Garithos wanted them killed so it doesn't really matter now does it? Not to mention it was the Kirin tor that came to Silvermoon shortly before the Northrend campaign asking for help, not the other way around.

Garithos was a racist madman with delusions of grandeur: he does not represent the Alliance at all.

From my point of view (the view of the Alliance) the Blood Elves were the real traitors by turning away from the Alliance and partnering with the Horde.

An useful partnership and good relationship active for many generations can not be broken just like that by one man (Garithos from the point of view of the Horde and Kael'thas from the point of view of the Alliance).

In fact, not all High Elves left the Alliance, they are the real Quel'dorei, those who self-exiled from their land, those who are loyal to his people and his ancestors, those who have been with the Alliance at the times of difficulty, who are scattered throughout Azeroth waiting for a leader to return to their glory ... Alleria? Can you hear us? Do you see the light?

[Mehrunes]

Nope. The Alliance existed before the Night Elves joined it. The Horde would never have existed without the orcish invasion.

But the Alliance would never have existed without the Orcish invasion as well. It was created to defend human lands against the Horde.

The Horde was sent to Azeroth because the Legion knew about that world and had a grudge against it's inhabitants.

Because the Night Elves lured them there, made a bad deal with them, and when a faction of them rebelled, it blew up half of the world to drive the Legion out. I only said that this argument can be used for both factions. Not that it's a strong argument, no matter which faction you want to describe in this way.

With Sylvanas capturing and torturing/brainwashing one of the Ebon Blade's highest ranking death knights? I really think not.

I don't see why there has to be a "horde equivalent." Unless the Alliance gets to blow up a horde city as well.

I'm not saying there needs to be an equivalent. Just responding to Trassk's comment on that possibility. Anyway, Koltira is one of the faction-aligned Ebon Blade's. He's like Ebon Blade's Sunreavers. And he did disobey his superior's command, so his capture and punishment is not really surprising. As I said, Ebon Blade's share much of Forsaken's mentality, so they could probably view this in similar light. Besides, how would they even know about that? Do they have spies within the Forsaken? Besides, mind controlled Koltira could work pretty well as an agent supporting Ebon Blade-Forsaken relations.

Alas, it's not something I will see in game. But still something I'd like to see.

Did you read the part in between where Varian declares and the part where I ask how it is the Alliance's fault? As in the part where the Alliance makes PEACE with the Horde after Wrath? Or are you just trying to stir up shit with your terrible reading skills?

Except, if memory serves me right, in the Prelude to Shattering, Horde and Alliance's agreement was a truce. Which is different thing from peace. A truce only means that sides agreeing on it stop fighting for a time. Sometimes that time is not specified, and it could in theory stay that way forever, but it isn't peace.

So, if memory serves me right, when Garrosh attacked Ashenvale, he broke ceasefire agreement. And that would mean he merely resumed the war, not started a new one. Before, during and after the truce the Horde and Alliance were at war, started by Varian. The war that continues into MoP was started by Varian. So, as I said, they are at fault. To what degree is subjective matter.

But that's if I remember it correctly. And then again there is also the possibility that Golden may not know the difference and she used terms "peace" and "truce" interchangeably.

I think Lor'themar's right on the mark. Alliance war mages are probably allowed to pass through Dalaran without any problem. It's only when it's Horde that there's a problem.

And even before Jaina became the leader, Kirin Tor did aid Jaina in Theramore. Rhonin himself was there to help. Although when Jaina was already the leader, the Council itself was against her vendetta on Orgrimmar, so not everyone in Dalaran is totally pro-Alliance. Moreover, Jaina does guard entrance to Darnassus before Horde sneaks there through Dalaran.

Jaina isn't really in a position to demand neutrality from the Sunreavers if neither she, nor her supporters and friends in Kirin Tor, are capable of neutrality themselves. And that's on top of the fact that Aethas could have had no idea about that incident. However, the Alliance war-magi using Dalaran will happen after Dalaran's official shift towards the Alliance. Jaina is still a hypocrite though.



The new order of sound files on the front page made me thinking that Anduin's still lives after his agonizing screams. When he asks (Alliance ?) player to throw the mallet, his voice is (still ?) rasping. My theory is that Garrosh does something to the bell against Anduin's early warnings, which has an effect on Anduin (and most likely others) and when Anduin regains his composure, he gets the mallet and uses it to negate the bell.

Maybe he gets knocked away by the resonance and is just presumed dead? Or maybe he heroically dies in the process, and Alliance's reaction about "murder" is hyperbolic. I'd like some cinematics finally.

[Shodan30]

So, in a nutshell, the alliance are getting on their side a bunch of people who thought the world was going to end, so instead of doing something about it, they just sealed up there city and left the world to die....at least until someone tore down the shield and forced them to get involved.

I'm not a huge lore buff, so perhaphs im wrong, im just going by the questlines that lead up to the LK expansion.

[Combatbutler]

Garithos was a racist madman with delusions of grandeur: he does not represent the Alliance at all.

From my point of view (the view of the Alliance) the Blood Elves were the real traitors by turning away from the Alliance and partnering with the Horde.

An useful partnership and good relationship active for many generations can not be broken just like that by one man (Garithos from the point of view of the Horde and Kael'thas from the point of view of the Alliance).

In fact, not all High Elves left the Alliance, they are the real Quel'dorei, those who self-exiled from their land, those who are loyal to his people and his ancestors, those who have been with the Alliance at the times of difficulty, who are scattered throughout Azeroth waiting for a leader to return to their glory ... Alleria? Can you hear us? Do you see the light?

He wasn't enough and he was the highest remaining member of the Alliance in Lordaeron. The blood elves were willing to work with the Alliance regardless of what had transpired with garithos as seen in their starting zone, but since the Alliance decided to spy on them and invaded their territory they were more or less forced to join the horde. The high elves are a dying breed scattered all over the planet splintered and broken, their future is rapidly fading.

[Dreknar20]

also where is the source of garroshes anger? he has none other then stories of the internment camps

You dont have to be personally effected to have a beef with a people/nation.

9-11 happened on the other side of the country for me, yet I still hate terrorists and wish them all a very painful death.

---------- Post added 2012-10-15 at 07:03 PM ----------

He wasn't enough and he was the highest remaining member of the Alliance in Lordaeron. The blood elves were willing to work with the Alliance regardless of what had transpired with garithos as seen in their starting zone, but since the Alliance decided to spy on them and invaded their territory they were more or less forced to join the horde.

What can you say. Old Hatrds die hard.
Night Elves view the Blood Elves as the desendants of the Highbourne and are now too willing to be all chubby with them.

---------- Post added 2012-10-15 at 07:06 PM ----------

Maybe he gets knocked away by the resonance and is just presumed dead? Or maybe he heroically dies in the process, and Alliance's reaction about "murder" is hyperbolic. I'd like some cinematics finally.

As far as I can tell Anduin confronts Garrosh over the bell.
That is hardly considered "murder" if Anduin really does die.

[Combatbutler]

What can you say. Old Hatrds die hard.
Night Elves view the Blood Elves as the desendants of the Highbourne and are now too willing to be all chubby with them.

I wonder if they would have acceoted them if they knew what transpired in Eldr'thalas until recently,some blood elves siphoned demonic power for a few years, the Shen'dralar did so for 10.000 and killed their own population, those are some serious double standards.

[Northem]

He wasn't enough and he was the highest remaining member of the Alliance in Lordaeron. The blood elves were willing to work with the Alliance regardless of what had transpired with garithos as seen in their starting zone, but since the Alliance decided to spy on them and invaded their territory they were more or less forced to join the horde. The high elves are a dying breed scattered all over the planet splintered and broken, their future is rapidly fading.

Yes, that is the point of view of the Horde, but please do not be too harsh about the fate of the High Elves, they can hear you and become depressed and then I cry ...

For the Quel'dorei! The banner of the silver unicorn will wave again in Quel'Thalas!

P.S. Come back soon Alleria! please!

[Mehrunes]

As far as I can tell Anduin confronts Garrosh over the bell.
That is hardly considered "murder" if Anduin really does die.

Well, in my opinion the files are still not in correct order. Mixing them with Garrosh's files could show them in better perspective, but in the end we'd need a video to learn the truth. But right now I think his death, be it real or not, has something to do with bell's power. He most likely will survive though, even though I'd like 5.2 legendary quest part to be a big troll on Blizzard's part, with the second prince being someone else than Anduin.

[Combatbutler]

Yes, that is the point of view of the Horde, but please do not be too harsh about the fate of the High Elves, they can hear you and become depressed and then I cry ...

Even if you see it from all angles the blood elves didn't have much of a choice left, the Alliance forced their hand ,again I might add.

You might have to accept that the high elves will most likely never recover, their already greatly diminished population took heavy blows and unlike the blood elves they really can't take those losses.

[Florena]

So, in a nutshell, the alliance are getting on their side a bunch of people who thought the world was going to end, so instead of doing something about it, they just sealed up there city and left the world to die....at least until someone tore down the shield and forced them to get involved.

I'm not a huge lore buff, so perhaphs im wrong, im just going by the questlines that lead up to the LK expansion.

Ummm...if you're talking about Dalaran, that's a pretty skewered perspective. They sealed up Dalaran because they were rebuilding after Archimonde destroyed the city. Then in Wrath they took an active role in fighting against Malygos. Nobody tore down their shield, and they weren't forced into Northrend.

[Combatbutler]

Ummm...if you're talking about Dalaran, that's a pretty skewered perspective. They sealed up Dalaran because they were rebuilding after Archimonde destroyed the city. Then in Wrath they took an active role in fighting against Malygos. Nobody tore down their shield, and they weren't forced into Northrend.

Malygos more or less forced them to act by redirecting ley lines, the kirin tor lost power and Malygos declared war against them, their only chance of survival was to bring the fight to the blue dragons in Northrend, before they were too weakened to stand up to Malygos.

[Florena]

Jaina was protecting Darnassus with a shield, and a sunreaver disabled Jainas protection, so technically Jaina broke Dalarans neutrality first, but it doesn't matter.



A single sunreaver would have been enough in some dark corner of the city or even outside the city walls.

The Kirin tor hasn't been truly neutral since they came to aid Theramore. There's also a difference between offensive and defensive action I thin. If the Sunreavers had been sending people to defend a Horde settlement under attack there may not have been an issue, but they sent members on the offense, into an Alliance city to steal a powerful artifact for Garrosh. You can still say Dalaran wasn't neutral with jaina there in Darnassus, but there is a bit of a difference between offense and defense.