New Warlock Spell - Cataclysm

[pokeadott]

Phoenexis - you will *never* get that clusterfuck back. It's wholly unreasonable to expect that a playstyle which less than 3% of human beings can play effectively is acceptable.

Cata Destro was PoS. Finally, something me and Xel agree on!

But if you're looking for an example of a 'good place' for a Destro pvp model, honestly the Litch King one was pretty great. CB/Conflag/SearingPain was a potent combo every 15-30sec. Immolate dispels sucked, but at least you had meaningful damage if you could set it up properly. Not saying we turn back the clock, but I feel like the concept of that model was sound with a few tweaks to the interaction with immolate.

Right now, we either are gods for 8 seconds if we are able to pop CDs and land a crazy CB - or we are able to be completely ignored if DS is on cooldown. It's really not a fun model. Destro should be able to pump out dangerous burst every 30 seconds (like our piers), but it shouldn't be able to global someone once every 2-3 minutes.

[Phoenexis]

Phoenexis - you will *never* get that clusterfuck back. It's wholly unreasonable to expect that a playstyle which less than 3% of human beings can play effectively is acceptable.

Yes yes I know. What I'm emphasizing on is the sustainability, flexibility and CC. Hence why I mentioned wotlk. I'm telling you that even by removing the dots and keeping the spec's core aspects it will be just as fun if not funner.

---------- Post added 2012-10-22 at 08:11 PM ----------

Cata Destro was PoS. Finally, something me and Xel agree on!

But if you're looking for an example of a 'good place' for a Destro pvp model, honestly the Litch King one was pretty great. CB/Conflag/SearingPain was a potent combo every 15-30sec. Immolate dispels sucked, but at least you had meaningful damage if you could set it up properly. Not saying we turn back the clock, but I feel like the concept of that model was sound with a few tweaks to the interaction with immolate.

Right now, we either are gods for 8 seconds if we are able to pop CDs and land a crazy CB - or we are able to be completely ignored if DS is on cooldown. It's really not a fun model. Destro should be able to pump out dangerous burst every 30 seconds (like our piers), but it shouldn't be able to global someone once every 2-3 minutes.

Basically this. That chaos bolt coupled with a conflag was what defined our damage. They were quick, hard hitting but recurrent. Im not saying let us one shot people with conflag, but make it hurt when we're pumping incinerates, a chaos bolt and conflag onto our opponents.

[Crimsonfiend76]

Offtopic for a sec, but as a tweak to destro, id revert somewhat to wotlk/cata model, where we brought back soul fire and tie that to costing an ember, while reverting CB back to the rotation (8 sec cd), where it always crits / does double damage on a target that has an immolate on it. that would solve our sustained dmg problem while nerfing CB...yeah i know then ppl would qq about SF's dmg, but that can be somewhat toned down slightly, so it doesnt hit as hard as MoP CB does.

[Xelnath]

The Lich King model of Destruction was absurdly hard-hitting Conflagrates. Backdrafted Incinerates are faster than Searing Pains.

What you miss is a feeling of nostalgia and a couple broken mechanics, not a real playstyle.

[Phoenexis]

No that's not possible, some of us wouldn't have enjoyed cataclysm. Even if the damage wasn't OP, the fact that you had sustqined damage was very appealing. Many people enjoyed it, not because of the big numbers, but because of its fast and continuous paste. Otherwise, these same players would be loving the current mop model.

---------- Post added 2012-10-22 at 08:39 PM ----------

In the end, it's that model that finds itself in the middle ground. Between extremely spread out damage and ridiculous chaos bolt hits. Wouldn't fit in best and please the most?

[Grubjuice]

i for one am not notalgic for Cata-Destruction or WotLK-Destro, I could pull of the rotation serviceably but i always did better with either Affliction or Demonology, and I just didn't like having to keep so many plates spinning, i felt like a circus clown.

[pokeadott]

The Lich King model of Destruction was absurdly hard-hitting Conflagrates. Backdrafted Incinerates are faster than Searing Pains.

What you miss is a feeling of nostalgia and a couple broken mechanics, not a real playstyle.

Not really.

What I miss is being able to reliably kill people without a 2min CD. I mentioned SP, because you could game it to land at the same time as CB/Conflag thanks to zero travel animation. Travel time on our spells is actually one of the reasons our non-CD damage low. We can't really time anything to spike a healthbar outside of DS CB.

And in general, what was wrong with a hard hitting Conflag? Did it hit any harder than Frost Bomb does now? Or Fulmination? A hard hitting, set-up based instant every 15-30 seconds is commonplace today.

[Lucidious]

I had to jump in on this discussion real quick and mention a few things. For one, im excited but yet dreading cataclysm the ability because im hoping the range doesnt make it useless but im VERY excited to try it out and I think it could "in theory" be just what the spec needs defensively so I havent been very vocal about the ability as of yet because I need to try it out before making any comments and I advise everyone else to do the same. We all know range COULD be a problem but lets trust Xelnath and at least give his judgement a chance before offering ill informed critics. And lastly I wanted to agree with those here who think the current state of chaos bolt mixed with trinket/dark soul every 2 min is OP and needs nerfed. I don't think nerfing gosac is a good idea because having the option is nice and the one thing I love about the MOP model the best is versatility so please don't go there.

But on that note I do feel that chaos bolt 2 minute one shotting needs tuned down. We are in DESPERATE need of better sustained damage via conflag/incinerate and if anything chaos bolts damage should not be increased by crit chance so we wouldnt be so dependent on dark soul for its damage. I just think the damage could be spread out better. That and lowering the cooldowns of dark bargain and unending resolve to 2 minutes apiece "as long as they are usable while cc'd" would make the playability of this class/spec so fun,smooth, and versatile that I don't think it has ever been any better in any previous xpac. Sorry just voicing my opinion so take it as you will.

[Nikijih]

1 minute is nothing in the world of cooldowns. We both know that.

Stop lobbying. I'm not buffing it again.

I dont think most of us are lobbying for a buff per say... Its more a matter of redesign. The skill itself is starting to take shape: its a button you push when you get CCed to hopefully reduce the melee pressure, either through them running away or through the CC at the end. It will be usefull especially against melee heavy teams to break CC kill-chains.

That being said, I think what most of us are thinking is "is that really what we need?". I think for destro the biggest "hurdle" is casting. We can have great damage, but for that we need to be able to cast. Only in current PvP, with melees having a 80% uptime on warlocks, casting is *very* difficult, which is why you dont see as many destros at high lvls as the other 2 specs. Melees are given ways to get in melee range. Kiters are given tools to kite. We are not given any tools to cast, and I think that is what most of us would rather see in a new skill.

EDIT: The problem is that the current incarnation of Destro is a all-or-nothing. If it works perfectly, its extremely frustrating for whoever is facing the warlock. Alternatively, if anything looks in the lock's direction, it becomes extremely frustrating for the warlock. Personally, its not only nostalgia when I say I would rather the WotlK model. I dont mean having OPed conflags, I mean having fast-cast smaller bursts on a more regular basis. Frankly if you were to double ember generation, cut Chaos Bolt's damage and cast time in half, I think a lot of woes would be solved.

Just my 2 cents

[Deleted]

How about I just cut Chaos Bolt from Grimoire of Sacrifice. :P

Then Chaos bolt will only consume one charge of Havoc ?

[Xelnath]

Thanks Nikihij.

That's a helpful post. Doesn't Unending Resolve also help you get off casting in the face of melee?

[Phoenexis]

We've already mentioned that many warlocks are using that spell offensively. However, it has a long cooldown and isn't as reliable as a cc since you are susceptible to stuns, LoS, etc... also, I hope we're not done with the previous debate

[Grubjuice]

Thanks Nikihij.

That's a helpful post. Doesn't Unending Resolve also help you get off casting in the face of melee?

obviously but only on cooldown, destro can only kill targets by using cooldowns equal to or longer than 2 minutes., sometimnes two cooldowns together (dark soul AND Unending resolved)

although as pointed out earlier our tier 30 cooldowns may be freed up from defensive use to offensive use with the addition of Cataclysm as a defensive cd.

[Phoenexis]

And see, many enjoyed destro's fast paced sustained damage. It's what actually made the spec fun

[wholol]

Thanks Nikihij.

That's a helpful post. Doesn't Unending Resolve also help you get off casting in the face of melee?

I see. so you want informative feedback.

the problem with using unending resolve to get chaos bolts off is something warlocks have been discussing for a while, but the main issue is that we should not be using it for it's immunity but rather it's defensive components,especially currently with all the extremely high amounts of damage flying around,also a lot of players have already gotten used to the idea of UR and use other forms of interrupt to stop us(stuns etc), the idea of using unending resolve would only be considered with a full cds up, DS/trinket and a very clear opening on the cast window where a kill is close to 90% guaranteed, because if that kill fails the warlock not only has no offensive cds but no defensive cds which can be very dangerous since the warlock's team's pressure will drop after the warlock returns to his usual kiting/building embers on the move strategy,while being trained.

Also I agree with what Nikihij said , though if CB is over nerfed, destruction would simply become less dangerous as a whole, if the warlock is trained efficiently that will minimize the lock's pressure which will not be a very difficult thing for healers to handle.

Edit: btw xelnath , why don't you just tell us " I want some detailed info regarding X topic , what can you guys tell me about it in X Y Z situations" I'm pretty sure you would get MUCH more informative answers than all the random demands for buffs/ nerfs.

[pokeadott]

Thanks Nikihij.

That's a helpful post. Doesn't Unending Resolve also help you get off casting in the face of melee?

Not sure if you've missed all the UE as an offensive talk somehow, but the short answer is yes and no.

You've seen me referencing Destro only being able to kill someone once every 2-3 minutes. The reason for the range is the UE component. I *only* use UE offensively, but it's still not enough vs. a team with a clue. Sometimes I can get a cooldown CB off, often I get CCed through my offensives and UE. I think most of us hate being a 2-3min CD wonder with a passion - especially when those CD's are so easy to prevent.

Destro needs a way to deliver damage via casting outside of a 2.6min aura mastery. Destro also needs better damage capability outside of DS, while the DS CB damage needs to be toned down. None of this is new, and cata doesn't really solve any of those issues.

[Phoenexis]

Another problem is that sustained damage doesn't fit in the current pvp model because of stupidly high burst and immortal healers. Add the myriad of instants to the list and... I think that's why he's hesitant to go back to sustained damage. Just look at affliction. Unless said damage is absurd *see frost dk obliterate), healers won't relly care. But I'd definitely be up for such a model if it could fit in.

[Nikijih]

Thanks Nikihij.

That's a helpful post. Doesn't Unending Resolve also help you get off casting in the face of melee?

To a certain extend only.

Part of the issue is that the problem has switched from interrupts being overwhelming in previous expentions to hard CC (stuns/silence/etc) in MoP. Classes like warriors and DKs have so many ways to shut your damage that they can lock you down without having to ever actually interrupt a cast. The more players you are facing, the more CC is thrown at you, the worst this gets.

On the other hand, while it might be usefull against things like ferals or rets, it becomes a matter of opportunity cost: what do you want to use it for, the interrupt immunity? Or the damage reduction? In Arena, more often then not, you end up using it for survivability as that is simply a priority and we have no alternatives, meaning you can't time it as you'd want with your burst CDs.

Again, just my 2 cents. I aint a gaming pro, and I certainly aint a paid developper, but this is what I have observed in my own humble experience.

[pokeadott]

Another problem is that sustained damage doesn't fit in the current pvp model because of stupidly high burst and immortal healers. Add the myriad of instants to the list and... I think that's why he's hesitant to go back to sustained damage. Just look at affliction. Unless said damage is absurd *see frost dk obliterate), healers won't relly care. But I'd definitely be up for such a model if it could fit in.

It's not really sustained damage that people want - it's repeatable spike damage without cooldowns. A frost mage hits for nothing outside of shatters, but at least every 30 seconds he's landing a forstbomb/frostbolt/icelance all at the same time and chunking a healthbar without the benefit of a dps cooldown. An elle shamie while spamming lightning bolts isn't putting out much pressure, but as soon as he builds up a Fulimnation and throws out a lava burst/lightningbolt/fulm that all land at the same time, healers are scrambling. The same for the shadowpriest who can land spikes into blast into deaths all nearly simultaneously with no travel time or opportunity for the other team to react.

Destro plods along casting incins that prettily snake along the ground followed by our 3sec cast lollypopping CB. If we could land our damage at the same time, it would still be decent even without CDs, but it's so stupidly predictable atm that there is no threat if we're not CD 2-shotting someone.

[Deleted]

Thanks Nikihij.

That's a helpful post. Doesn't Unending Resolve also help you get off casting in the face of melee?

Every 2.6minutes you can cast for 8seconds if they don't simply interrupt it with a CC effect.

Of which, you've now used your defensive cooldown and won't be able to use it when you need it.

I think again, it's not so much lobbying, it's confusion as the intent of certain spells.

Unending Resolve is far more attractive to actually get a cast out and so the fact it reduces damage by 40% (making it's cooldown as long as it is) is overlooked completely, it being so hard to get casts off without it.

When I arena, albeit it's openly stated 2v2 isn't balanced, I play with a holy paladin... Our tactic vs pretty much every single comp comprises of the following:

Run around for 3 minutes building embers with fel flame, pop darksoul, trinket and unending resolve, go for chaosbolt.
If it succeeds, great!
If not, repeat the process, going for the kill every 3 minutes, while doing pretty much nothing for the rest of the engagement.