5.1 10 / 25 Seperate Lockouts

[facerollin]

The argument is over, 25's is harder and Blizzard is rewarding them better.

Infracted

[Zharradan]

inb4 top guilds moving to KR aiming for world firsts

[Immitis]

Best part about this change would be 25 man raids steamrolling 10s and shutting up all the clueless 10manisharderlolololololo idiots.

so steamrolling a raid in better gear makes the raid itself easy? that doesnt even make sense

[Buxton McGraff]

So this is just an attempt for Blizzard to make more money from KR's?
Let them raid twice and get better loot just so they can make more money?
Real cool. Feels totally fair to me.

[facerollin]

the people who run the asian servers arent the same people who run the game over here

You should stop posting.

[Immitis]

You should stop posting.

O_o why? its a fact the game isnt run by blizzard in china/asia alot of things are different over there and heavily edited and plenty of things have been added over there that we never got. also 25 man raiding is insanely popular in china and korea so unlocking both for them means more asians playing and since they pay per minute/hour/day that = more asian money

[Sonrisa]

so steamrolling a raid in better gear makes the raid itself easy? that doesnt even make sense

I'm not saying it's easy, I'm saying its easier. There's a difference. And 10 mans could prolly just like go with another 10 man guild for the gear too since its easier anyway right? no biggie.

[Shmeh]

Looks like 10 man is going to die. Fucking fantastic.

I'm not saying it's easy, I'm saying its easier. There's a difference. And 10 mans could prolly just like go with another 10 man guild for the gear too since its easier anyway right? no biggie.

10 + 10 = 20

20 =/= 25

25 - 20 = 5

Yeah, buddy. We'll just go with 4 tanks and 5 empty spots.

[Kaharon]

You should stop posting.

Dude, you are the one with the most usless comments in this whole thread, did you get owned by a 10 man group or why can't you stop crying? 10 man vs 25 man in most fights is just about setup and the players. In some fights 25 is harder, in others its 10. Why can't people go with that? I mean do you really have such a miserable life so you only cry and cry about this and that? Show me your 10 man 6/6 hc AND 25 man 6/6 hc and then your meaning is worth something, unless you don't have this, you are nothing more but hot steam releasing from a mouthbreather that doesn't get what he wants.
Children

[Foto]

Emergherred! Hopefully this will bring back the return of 25mans!! god i miss them

[facerollin]

Cya 10 mans.

[Elegiac]

I'm not saying it's easy, I'm saying its easier. There's a difference. And 10 mans could prolly just like go with another 10 man guild for the gear too since its easier anyway right? no biggie.

Thus, the feeling of obligation to do 25s for the better gear. To say nothing of the drama when you have two competing 10 mans in a guild not able to get those last few raiders.

[Immitis]

I'm not saying it's easy, I'm saying its easier. There's a difference. And 10 mans could prolly just like go with another 10 man guild for the gear too since its easier anyway right? no biggie.

the raid itself is harder in 10 man you can lose multiple people in 25 mans and not wipe its alot easier to be caried in 25 mans. in 10 mans if you lose more then 2 people or even 1 tank or heals its a wipe.

however its alot harder to organize 25 man raids and have a steady amount of people to be consistently on time and ready and geared, thats the only thing harder about 25 mans

[Niyar]

The argument is over, 25's is harder and Blizzard is rewarding them better.

seeing how intelligent your last 2 posts are i don't even expect you to understand but this is a Korean ONLY server change to handel something much more diffferent then giving 25man more rewards. besides why should 25's give anything different then what it already does? i love how people that argument this is probably gear whores. since 25man as i have seen so far still gives more feeling of accomplishment.

and for the majority of players in the game ( and i seriously don't think the people in this threat that is screaming for the change is part of that majority ) it would probably ruin raiding for them since 10's are way more popular ( in numbers of players doing em )

[facerollin]

Is English your first language? Because I am having trouble understanding you.

I'm not against 10's at all, I killed Heroic Madness on 0% in 10's(it was certainly harder in 10's this tier), but this tier, it's beyond reasonable doubt that 25's is harder thus far.

[Shmeh]

Emergherred! Hopefully this will bring back the return of 25mans!! god i miss them

http://www.wowprogress.com/

Yes. Because nobody raids 25 mans, right?

[Sonrisa]

the raid itself is harder in 10 man you can lose multiple people in 25 mans and not wipe its alot easier to be caried in 25 mans. in 10 mans if you lose more then 2 people or even 1 tank or heals its a wipe.

however its alot harder to organize 25 man raids and have a steady amount of people to be consistently on time and ready and geared, thats the only thing harder about 25 mans

That is such a joke. I remember during firelands how people were saying how insanely hard rag 10 heroic was how it was impossible to cope with the dreadflames etc. When we finally go 10 man our shaman said clearing dreadflames was so easy in 10 it was a joke. Not only that, but we end up killing it entering phase 4 with 2 dead and 2 meteors (no rezes available anymore), talk about losing people not giving a shit about it. To put it in context that would be akin to entering phase 4 with 20 alive and no rezes, yeah get swarmed by dreadflame bro, DPS is tighter too.

You clearly haven't raided 25man heroic if you think you can lose people and make a kill regardless. The DPS requirements are much tighter in 25.

[Elegiac]

http://www.wowprogress.com/

Yes. Because nobody raids 25 mans, right?

Because the top 20 guilds are representative of a game of 10 million players?

[Fyersing]

Don't make a claim that simply isn't true. 25's simply really are harder this tier.

The top guilds in Korea consider 10-man to be "serious", with 25-man being the "joke" -- it goes to show how imbecilic the West has become when the only logic with regards to difficulty tuning involves the number of requisite performers. If the reasoning of the 25-man raiding community were applied to real life, ten half-wits who took an hour to paint a fence would be performing a more difficulty job than two geniuses who did the same job in fifteen minutes.

DPS checks are tighter and damage is bigger.

So let's compare, shall we?

If a 10-man group runs at max healers/tanks (3 heals, 2 tanks, 5 DPS) they're running with 50% of the group being DPS.
If a 25-man group runs at max healers/tanks (6 heals, 2 tanks, 17 DPS) they're running with 68% of the group being DPS.

If a 10-man group runs at min healers/tanks (2 heals, 1 tank, 7 DPS) they're running with 70% of the group being DPS.
If a 25-man group runs at min healers/tanks (4 heals, 1 tank, 20 DPS) they're running with 80% of the group being DPS.

DPS Summary: If you're comparing average guilds that run max healers/tanks, 10-mans have 18% less damage dealers compared to 25-mans. If you're comparing 'hardcore' guilds that run min healers/tanks, 10-mans have 10% less damage dealers compared to 25-mans. TL;DR -- you're SUPPOSED to have harder DPS walls.

With respect to healers, 25-mans only have 250% more raiders than 10-mans, yet they variably have 200-300% as many healers. If you're group is running absolute minimum healers, you're going to have a harder time with healing from a numbers perspective; if your group is running with either typical or maximum number of healers the requisite numbers will be either the same or easier than 10-man difficulty. But the necessary number-pulling notwithstanding, that doesn't account for difficulties associated with timing and/or luls in activity (easier for 6 healers to handle tank spike damage than it is for 3, etc. etc.).

Healer Summary: The average 25-man guild will have a much easier time healing than the average 10-man guild; whereas the 'hardcore' 25-man guild will magic have it slightly harder than the 10-man guild -- note, however, that the gap between the former and the latter reflect bringing 6 healers (former) and 4 healers (latter) meaning there is potential for both to slide to that magic number 5 which makes healing directly proportional to raid size when compared to 10-man.

The tanks are non-issue, similar amount in either difficulty.

Just because your 10 man guild has 6 bad DPS in it doesn't mean the DPS checks are harder for 10's. I've cleared on both modes. My guild's main group is 25 man. I've also cleared in an alt group on 10 man. I can tell you without a doubt that we had a MUCH easier time on 10 man than we have on 25. I promise you, it takes a lot more to clear the place on 25 than 10.

I find reading about etymological linguistics to be far easier than reading Dr. Seuss, personally, so therefore it must be true; but to be quite serious, what you feel and what actually is are two separate things. You know when you see that crazy, shirtless guy on a tricked out red Ducati speeding up behind you in your sideview mirror and you immediately think he's on you a$$, but then you remember: objects in mirror may appear closer than they are. A perspective doesn't define reality if it can't be measured; which is why math is your only go-to for difficulty discussion.

Back tot he topic at hand, I would seriously love to see this sort of change. It is impossible for Blizzard to make the two difficulties the same. All they end up doing is separating the community. 10 man guilds are the most progressed on my realm. Of course they all insist that simply makes them better because 10's are harder than 25's right? They must be, since Paragon switched.

They're harder in some senses, easier in others -- from the perspective of which setup has better coverage of various group roles it would appear that "hardcore" 25-mans would require more from their players than 10-mans; while "casual" 10-mans would require more from their players than 25-mans.

That said situational differences cannot really ever be accounted for. It's more likely, for instance, that from a pool of only 3 healers somebody might miss a dispell or a damage spike than it is for the same to occur when 6 healers are present -- simply probability boys.

Switch it back to seperate lockouts with seperate loot levels. Guilds can go back to 25 man if they want. They can get better gear for putting in harder work. Guilds that can't recruit, can stick to 10 mans. The gear they get in these 10's will be sufficient for the difficulty they are attempting. the only reason 10 man guilds felt compelled to run 25's on top of 10's was to get better than 10 man loot because they didn't have the skill to down the encounters with the intended loot.

I'm going to have to call extreme BS here. I won't even explain myself other than to suggest you quickly estimate exactly how many people converted from 25 to 10 when the opportunity presented itself -- just today Killars of <vodka> stated on his livestream that taking his top 10 players from <vodka> to 10-man would result in them doing better. Now, he was trying to use that as an argument explaining why 10-man is easier but what most of his stream-chat read from that was, "in 25-mans, we carry our 15 worst people".

[Racthoh]

That is such a joke. I remember during firelands how people were saying how insanely hard rag 10 heroic was how it was impossible to cope with the dreadflames etc. When we finally go 10 man our shaman said clearing dreadflames was so easy in 10 it was a joke. Not only that, but we end up killing it entering phase 4 with 2 dead and 2 meteors (no rezes available anymore), talk about losing people not giving a shit about it. To put it in context that would be akin to entering phase 4 with 20 alive and no rezes, yeah get swarmed by dreadflame bro, DPS is tighter too.

You clearly haven't raided 25man heroic if you think you can lose people and make a kill regardless. The DPS requirements are much tighter in 25.

this is because your 10 man was better than the bads in your 25.