5.1 Patch : 10 and 25 man seperate lockouts

[Deleted]

Raiders don't make the decision - raid leaders do. If the average raider can't find someone to indulge his 25 man preferences he's SOL - but that's fine because it just means he's too lazy to merit 24 other peoples time and energy.

Every single raider makes the decision which mode they're going to raid.

Only person putting more effort in is the RL. Everything else is the same.

That is just flat out factually false. I have no clue why you would think that.

[Bloodletters]

Yes...YOUR ***PERCEIVED*** risk/reward is different. Raid leaders do more work and that isn't rewarded. True. That is a deterrent to having raid form in the first place. But if you aren't a raid leader...yuor workload is the same. Your rotation is the same. You have the same mechanics to react to. You see the same content.

Where is this extra risk you speak of coming from? Is it simply the perception that 25s are harder? This was spoken of in Cataclysm as well, and was and is a popular myth. Even today, there are players on this thread who swear that 10s are harder.

This is a very short sighted viewpoint of the challenges of 25 man. If it's more difficult to acquire good players in a 25 man setting, do you think raid leaders have a 100% success rate in acquiring good players regardless of those challenges? If you believe that, you'll believe anything. The reality is, often times the good players aren't picked up because they are difficult to find. If they had a 100% success rate, it would contradict how much of a challenge it is at all.

The way it affects people who aren't recruiters or raid leaders is it affects your ability to down bosses. It affects your progression because it's more difficult to acquire 25 talented players for your raid group. This doesn't even account for the issues with managing raid cooldowns, calling out mechanics during a fight and such in a 25 man setting. The rigors of raiding 25 man affect everyone who chooses to play in that setting.

[Deleted]

Every single raider makes the decision which mode they're going to raid.

Nope. Most raiders seek someone else to lead them through raids. Therefore it is raid leaders preference which decides the format.

That is just flat out factually false. I have no clue why you would think that.

Because i've played wow since vanilla beta, and lead raids, just been in raids etc since it launched. Dpsing a large raid is idenitcal to dpsing a small one. Tanking is identical. Healing is slightly different in that you have more allocation (but AOE heals do more so it evens out.)

Raid leading a huge raid is a massive pain in the arse.

Raid leading a 10 man is kinda alright. For the same loot, a raid leader is going to pick 10 man. Raiders in general just seek someone to hold their hands so they can get their loot and don't care much where they do their identical job - as long as they are getting the best shinies they can.

[Deleted]

Nope. Most raiders seek someone else to lead them through raids. Therefore it is raid leaders preference which decides the format.




Because i've played wow since vanilla beta, and lead raids, just been in raids etc since it launched. Dpsing a large raid is idenitcal to dpsing a small one. Tanking is identical. Healing is slightly different in that you have more allocation (but AOE heals do more so it evens out.)

Raid leading a huge raid is a massive pain in the arse.

Raid leading a 10 man is kinda alright. For the same loot, a raid leader is going to pick 10 man. Raiders in general just seek someone to hold their hands so they can get their loot and don't care much where they do their identical job - as long as they are getting the best shinies they can.

What a load of crap. How can you not see that, for example, more players require more synchronization and individual decision making as to not kill oneanother during AoE damage by a debuff? Or that healers will need to decide on more things when there are 5 debuffs instead of 1-2? Who is going to heal which guy? Who am I going to dispell? Will I waste my CD if someone else just popped his to save him? These types of problems are just non-existant in 10mans, or when they do exist these are easily communicated since the group is so small that it won't be 5 people saying something on VT but just 1-2.

[Deleted]

And this is where you are flat out wrong. How much do you want to bet that if there was a 5-man mode with the same rewards, that's where most people would go to? Not because they particularly prefer 5 mans, but because it would offer superior risk-reward.

Yeah that pretty much sums it up. There is no "people want to raid x". People will chose the path of least resistance, which currently is 10man by a mile. It's not about what people "want", cause they will change what they want in a heartbeat once Blizz changes the framework and rules.If heroic raid gear would be rewarded fpr swimming around stranglethorn in a 50 men-group, people would do it. Doesn't mean it's a preferred raid format. Just means best risk/reward.

There is a small fraction that will always prefer 10s or 25s for different reasons but the majority of players will simply chose the better risk/reward option.

It all comes down to if Blizz wants to maintain the 25 man format. They said several times that 25s are here to stay so you can bet they will find a way to make them attractive enough. Seperate lockouts alone will be enough. Since the hardcore defenders of 10s are convinced the only difference between the 2 formats is the work of the raidlead, it should be a cakewalk to get that organized. And of course clearing 25men hardmodes will be easy too!

[Deleted]

What a load of crap. How can you not see that, for example, more players require more synchronization and individual decision making as to not kill oneanother during AoE damage by a debuff? Or that healers will need to decide on more things when there are 5 debuffs instead of 1-2? Who is going to heal which guy? Who am I going to dispell? Will I waste my CD if someone else just popped his to save him? These types of problems are just non-existant in 10mans, or when they do exist these are easily communicated since the group is so small that it won't be 5 people saying something on VT but just 1-2.

Moving away from the next guy is exactly the same no matter the format. Look at cricle, make sure its green.

As for the rest of your points - raid leader decides them (or healing team leader, maybe) so not actually a difficulty that's on the heads of the raiders themselves (and ofc on the other hand AOE heals do more in 25 so it balances out.)

In any eent - raiders don't pick the format, the raid leaders do. If your 25 man raid leader turns up and says "herding you lot is arseache, tonight we are doing 10's" theres nothing you can do about it. *Except start your own 25 man but most raiders will never do that as they want someone else to lead them around*

[thurizas]

I bet that implementing it on Korea lives is a test to see how it goes over. If it works, it'll be implemented in other regions as well.

Blizzard doesn't need to test this system -- they already have well over two years of data on non-shared lockout and better gear dropping from 25-mans. This is what we did in Cata -- remember ToC and ICC?

I think it is a case of new(er) developers think they can do better the what was done before. A quote comes to mind for this ""Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" (George Santayana)

[Talen]

You've been obsessively posting these walls of texts for half a year over and over. Everyone knows what you think by now, and nobody is going to bother reading through all of them.

Then you shouldn't be surprised that you get things wrong.

And that's wrong. "Work" is irrelevant. Every single raider has a decision to make: 25 or 10. If they go 10 they get better risk-reward (they know their expected rate of progress is faster).

They get faster progress than 25s because its easier for them to stack skilled players if thats what they wnat from the game. That's will be true in ANY system with two such formats, regardless of how equal everything is. The average speed of the top 25 sprinters in the world will always be slower than the average speed of the top 10 sprinters. The average score of the top 25 football teams will always be lower than that of the top 10 football teams.

It doesn't matter what system you put in place, this will always be the case.

And if players put progress above format - that is their choice. Their risk is lower because they deliberately take steps to ensure the raid is more skilled than normal. This is not something Blizzard can ever control or adjust for. These players aren't after gear. They aren't after challenge. They don't care about format.

They are after "progress".

If progress is what you want, then 25s can never compete. Now, if you want the same challenge, to raid with friends, or guilds or feel or whatever- that can be and is provided for. If you want gearing efficiency, that comes with 25s. 10s offer ease of logistics.

Every single player in a 25 man raid also has a constant force pushing them to 10 mans because moving from 25 to 10 will increase their expected rewards.

You have more gear from 25s, with less chance it'll be wasted. Leaving aside the so-called risk element, 25s get more gear. They get the same gear but the raid gets more gear.As a result, the players gear up faster - both because they get more pieces, and because less is wasted. So....moving from 25s to 10s will actually decrease the amount of gear the raid gets, it will increase the chance any particular drop will be wasted and the entire raid will gear up much slower. But this somehow is an increase in reward?

I'm not quite sure where this myth about 10s increasing the rewards comes from. Unless you are talking about vanity or crafting items? Or perhaps just teir gear?

That's why in order to have a fair decision problem (people are free to choose based on size) you must increase the rewards or decrease the risk for 25 mans, i.e., either nerf them so that the performance requirement is less than 10 man or provide higher rewards than 10 man.

Actually - I think the first step is to actually show these issues actually exist. The logistics issues Blizzard mentioned definitely do. The issue about"perfromance" requirement is you making the assumption that Blizzard don't actually balance with that in mind. The isue about 10s having increased rewards seems either highly selective or just plain wrong.

It's not a myth. It's a simple fact of life that overcoming a challenge that requires coordinated execution from 25 people will always be harder than 10. Of course there are people who claim 10s are harder, they have to defend their egos and pretend that what they're doing is the same as 25 man raiders even though it actually requires less skill and effort.

Ahh. So...you are right and if anyone disagrees with you, they are lying?

You also appear to be one of those people who assume that Blizzard don't actually balance around the need for coordination and management. They've said they do, but they too are (I suppose) lying about it in order to justify their current work.

It amuses me that for so long people have been saying there is no difficulty difference between 10 and 25

No....I - and others - have been sayign exactly what Blizzrad have been saying. They differences are comparable. Blizzard never promised 100% equality in all aspects. That would be impossible. What it said would be each raid would be of comparable difficulty. It didn't fully deliver in Catac, but many raids and encounters were actually comparable in difficulty. IMO anyway. Its a little early to say about MoP though.

Yet as soon as Blizz talks about seperating lockouts and rewarding 25's a little, there is all this QQ about how it will ruin 10 man raiding and kill 10 man guilds, what happened to running the size you want regardless of any loot difference?

Gone with this change. Thats what the QQ is about. If players did stay with their preferred format, the level of gear wouldn't be as important. History shows us, however, that players prioritise gear over format. There is a lot that is prioritised over format, but this was a lure directly imposed upon the game by Blizzard.

If you give one format better gear, the other will suffer.

More importantly, if 10 man's die because people choose to run 25's for the better loot, so be it.

If Blizzard decides thats waht it wants...fine. A lot of players will move to 25s. Many don't want to.

EJL

[Deleted]

They get faster progress than 25s because its easier for them to stack skilled players if thats what they wnat from the game. That's will be true in ANY system with two such formats, regardless of how equal everything is.

Exactly. These things will never be equal so it's stupid to give equal rewards for them. Either the rewards for 25s need to be increased or completely different raid instances must be produced for the different sizes.

Actually - I think the first step is to actually show these issues actually exist.

That's easy. Look at the statistics. 25 man raiding is dead in the current system. Many people, myself included, are not playing at all because the game no longer offers a viable option to do 25 man raiding.

And before you repeat yourself for a billionth time, no, this has nothing to do with people liking 10 mans more. If there was 5 and 10 man modes instead of 10 and 25 man modes, we'd be here discussing how 10 mans are dead and everyone prefers to raid 5 mans.

[Talen]

I'll never get why people insist that they'll feel forced to do both 10 and 25.

Lets say you are in a guild. You don't want to run both formats. Fine.

Suppose....11 members of the guild do. Thats their choice, isn't it? Yes.

But then...they get two gear rolls a week. They get more practise. They start getting a name for themselves as the best in the guild.

But thats all fine because it won't be long until the rest of the guild catches up.

Except, we know thats not usually what happens. These players will simply up and leave instead of carrying the "baddies" who didn't have the proper attitude to put in the work to achieve success. Now your guild is short both tanks and the backup and has lost 3 of your 6 healers.

Alternatively, maybe you are the only player in your guild who doesn't run both. One week, you have a bad session. You wipe. Repeatedly. On the easiest boss in the tier. Hey...it happens. We all have bad nights. But this time, there are arguments. Debates. Name calling. And then you log in the next day and find you've been gkicked. You ask about it and find out your low DPS was blamed and the guild has a new member who needs your raidslot.

Or - do you really want to be the cad who holds up your guild and costs them Realm First?

Its actully fairly easy for me to understand why players feel compelled to do both

At the end of the day it sounds to me like those in 10man guilds are scared that if 25mans get a seperate lockout they'll lose raiders since they're afraid that most in their guilds still favour 25mans but only do 10s since it's perceived that 25s are dying.

No. 10 man guilds are "scared" because the game has been in this situation before, where 10s were seen as jokes, stepping stones, second rate and also-rans.

It's a situation Blizzard wanted to move away from.

Exactly. These things will never be equal so it's stupid to give equal rewards for them. Either the rewards for 25s need to be increased or completely different raid instances must be produced for the different sizes.

Players should get better rewards because they more highly skilled than the raid was intended for? They steamroller it because they've boosted their ability to deal with the mechanics by shafting the rest of their guild and they should get a reward? They face a challenge that is the equal of the one 25s faces (or should be, at leat, comparable) but because they are so much better than everyone else, they need to get better loot?

No. If players stack their guild to raise the average skill level and so enable them to steamroller content not balanced for that level of skill and so help contribute to the myth that 10s are easier then their reward is that they make faster progress.

They do not need better gear as a reward for this. Nor, in fact, do they deserve any.

That's easy. Look at the statistics. 25 man raiding is dead in the current system. Many people, myself included, are not playing at all because the game no longer offers a viable option to do 25 man raiding.

Statistics tells me there are fewer 25s around today. What it does not tell me is why. We know some of the reasons - with no reward for doing so, fewer people are going to want to lead such raids. The population is smaller thanks to the decline in Cataclsym. Players are unwilling to join 25s because they aren't good enough. Players don't actually value format that highly so push other factors higher.

Others appear to be myths or highly subjective. The "Path of Least Resistance" is something that obviously applies to raid leaders; anyone else is affected only indirectly at best. Difficulty is subjective - some players swear 25s are all harder, others say 10s are all harder and yet others say its mixed. Players getting increased rewards in 10s appears to have no basis in fact.

And so on.

And before you repeat yourself for a billionth time, no, this has nothing to do with people liking 10 mans more. If there was 5 and 10 man modes instead of 10 and 25 man modes, we'd be here discussing how 10 mans are dead and everyone prefers to raid 5 mans.

This too is a popular myth. In reality, 10s don't have much greater logistics to overcome han 5s. They'd be more interesting fights with a wider variety of mechanics. And they'd be sized better for allow players to play with friends and family. If the modes were both as difficult, what you'd end up with is not a decline but people doing a mix depending on how many of their friedns were online at the time.

Every single raider makes the decision which mode they're going to raid.

If a RL decides he wnats to raid 10, he'll raid a 10. The raider decides which fromat he wants to do, but it is the RL who provides the opportunity for him to do so.

That is just flat out actually false. I have no clue why you would think that.

Because for many, its typically true. Some raids have sub officers, true. Many don't. You may argue this is the wrong way to do it, but at the end of the day, even if there are 2 or 3 sub-officers, that extra effort is falling onto only a few shoulders.

As for the thought that the guilds are harder to manage as well...true. But that isn't a raid issue.

EJL

[Deleted]

Exactly. These things will never be equal so it's stupid to give equal rewards for them. Either the rewards for 25s need to be increased or completely different raid instances must be produced for the different sizes.

10 mans need higher rewards than 25 - because it's a higher chance that way to reward the RL.

That's easy. Look at the statistics. 25 man raiding is dead in the current system. Many people, myself included, are not playing at all because the game no longer offers a viable option to do 25 man raiding.

You mean you can't find a raid leader who is willing to do all the extra work for you as easily?

And before you repeat yourself for a billionth time, no, this has nothing to do with people liking 10 mans more. If there was 5 and 10 man modes instead of 10 and 25 man modes, we'd be here discussing how 10 mans are dead and everyone prefers to raid 5 mans.

Raiders don't pick. Raid leaders do.

[Talen]

Blizzard doesn't need to test this system -- they already have well over two years of data on non-shared lockout and better gear dropping from 25-mans. This is what we did in Cata -- remember ToC and ICC?

LK. They tweaked Vanilla into TBC. That had issues. They tweaked TBC in LK. That had issues. They changed to a new raid model for Cataclsym...that had one issue, but otherwise appears to be doing what Blizzard want.

I think it is a case of new(er) developers think they can do better the what was done before. A quote comes to mind for this ""Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" (George Santayana)

No. I think it more a case of the Asia provdiers giving the Asia market exactly what they want while at the same time boosting their own profits. The Western market has a very different pay structure and gamer cultutre which would make this move unlikely to appear here in the short term. If Blizzard were to want to do so, they would have done so when MoP launched. The next opportunity for them to do so will be when the next Xpac launches. Asia could get away with it simply bcause their gaming structure isn't as organised so there will be very little disruption to guilds or players as a result. But unless Blizzard decide out of the blue that this has become a game breaking issue a month into MoP, it won't happen here.

EJL

[RyanEX]

Lets say you are in a guild. You don't want to run both formats. Fine.

Suppose....11 members of the guild do. Thats their choice, isn't it? Yes.

But then...they get two gear rolls a week. They get more practise. They start getting a name for themselves as the best in the guild.

But thats all fine because it won't be long until the rest of the guild catches up.

Except, we know thats not usually what happens. These players will simply up and leave instead of carrying the "baddies" who didn't have the proper attitude to put in the work to achieve success. Now your guild is short both tanks and the backup and has lost 3 of your 6 healers.

Alternatively, maybe you are the only player in your guild who doesn't run both. One week, you have a bad session. You wipe. Repeatedly. On the easiest boss in the tier. Hey...it happens. We all have bad nights. But this time, there are arguments. Debates. Name calling. And then you log in the next day and find you've been gkicked. You ask about it and find out your low DPS was blamed and the guild has a new member who needs your raidslot.

Or - do you really want to be the cad who holds up your guild and costs them Realm First?

Its actully fairly easy for me to understand why players feel compelled to do both



No. 10 man guilds are "scared" because the game has been in this situation before, where 10s were seen as jokes, stepping stones, second rate and also-rans.

It's a situation Blizzard wanted to move away from.



Players should get better rewards because they more highly skilled than the raid was intended for? They steamroller it because they've boosted their ability to deal with the mechanics by shafting the rest of their guild and they should get a reward? They face a challenge that is the equal of the one 25s faces (or should be, at leat, comparable) but because they are so much better than everyone else, they need to get better loot?

No. If players stack their guild to raise the average skill level and so enable them to steamroller content not balanced for that level of skill and so help contribute to the myth that 10s are easier then their reward is that they make faster progress.

They do not need better gear as a reward for this. Nor, in fact, do they deserve any.



Statistics tells me there are fewer 25s around today. What it does not tell me is why. We know some of the reasons - with no reward for doing so, fewer people are going to want to lead such raids. The population is smaller thanks to the decline in Cataclsym. Players are unwilling to join 25s because they aren't good enough. Players don't actually value format that highly so push other factors higher.

Others appear to be myths or highly subjective. The "Path of Least Resistance" is something that obviously applies to raid leaders; anyone else is affected only indirectly at best. Difficulty is subjective - some players swear 25s are all harder, others say 10s are all harder and yet others say its mixed. Players getting increased rewards in 10s appears to have no basis in fact.

And so on.



This too is a popular myth. In reality, 10s don't have much greater logistics to overcome han 5s. They'd be more interesting fights with a wider variety of mechanics. And they'd be sized better for allow players to play with friends and family. If the modes were both as difficult, what you'd end up with is not a decline but people doing a mix depending on how many of their friedns were online at the time.



If a RL decides he wnats to raid 10, he'll raid a 10. The raider decides which fromat he wants to do, but it is the RL who provides the opportunity for him to do so.



Because for many, its typically true. Some raids have sub officers, true. Many don't. You may argue this is the wrong way to do it, but at the end of the day, even if there are 2 or 3 sub-officers, that extra effort is falling onto only a few shoulders.

As for the thought that the guilds are harder to manage as well...true. But that isn't a raid issue.

EJL

Most important word...REALM FIRST.

If you're in a casual guild, this isn't a factor. You don't care.

You're not going to race to max level. You take your time enjoying the zone story.

You don't chain run Heroics till you have a migraine the size of a mountain desperate for that piece of gear that gives you a .15 dps increase.

Yes, even in casual guilds there'll be people that're hot for raiding so they run both. I'm one of them. it was a matter of pride for us that we advanced faster in 10 heroic than we did in 25. But here's the thing.

If you're really into 25s, then progress or not, you're not going to downgrade to a 10man out of the blue. If anything you might guild jump, but again that depends on your relationship with your guild. I'm sure everyone on this board has a story about some guy/gal or another in a horribad guild despite possibly being a top tank/dps/healer on the server yet refuses to leave because he just simply likes his guild.

[Deleted]

Can't believe blizzard is doing something so disadvantaging for other players.... "to fit kr player better".... seriously... blizzard... f##k you.

[Stiven]

Oh yeah, no problem blizz.
Don't worry about EU and US.

God I wish we had sensible laws like most Asian countries.

Separating them would be amazing. Double transmog runs, and being able to be involved in 25 and 10 man raids like in Wrath.

Well if Blizz give us 10 and 25 Man separate lock, then people will get fast gear, and in the end they will not pay to play since they got all gear.
Because the game is just about to get better gear nothing more then that.

[Talen]

Most important word...REALM FIRST.

If you're in a casual guild, this isn't a factor. You don't care.

That describes most of the player base. Any reason then why Blizzard should tune the game to cater for the few who do?

EJL

[DemoBytom]

I'll never get why people insist that they'll feel forced to do both 10 and 25.

Everyone who thinks at least a bit seriously about raiding will feel the need to run both sizes, for better chance on upgrades. Just like people do the dailies and LFR now, even though so many don't like them - they provide them with upgrades which are needed to get into raid groups...

As a raid leader - if you have 2 people to choose from, one who is geared in full epics, and one in greens who would you choose? The one better geared. Running both means bigger chance on getting an upgrade.

With 2 separate lockouts it's no longer a choice which format you want to run - in the end you will run both or be replaced by those who do simply because you will fall more and more behind.


Remember ICC? I was in a very social and casual guild on a small realm and even we had to organize 25 mans. When we stopped running those - most people just left to join guilds that offered them better loot, because in the end -this game is about getting better loot.


Don't forget that current tier is not only Mogushan Vaults.. It's 3 raid instances with 16 bosses total. with LFR, 10 and 25 man it's 48 bosses to kill per week.. You should kill every boss 3 times per week..
Ye it's the best way to make everyone hate current raid, by forcing them to grind it over and over again :/

[Zukumani]

So my question is, if this becomes popular and people start crying out for it to come to US/EU Do you think it will happen?

[Deleted]

So my question is, if this becomes popular and people start crying out for it to come to US/EU Do you think it will happen?

Some hope that it will happen, some fear that it will happen.

If it will happen or not?
There are 3 major guilds in Korea, fighting for high rankings in 25 (1 doesnt look so good this tier)
Another 2 10 man and In extremis (world 4th LK 25 that swapped to 10).

If Taiwan is also included (they said China i dont know if that means Taiwan too), add another 4 10 man and Stars from 25.

All those guilds raid for world recognition, and due to the new system, most likely they would be canceled out from tier 15.

That cannot happen because they will not let it happen themselves.

So by the begining of tier 15, (that most likely those guilds will be canceled out by progress tracking sites), the changes will either become global, or reversed.

What will happen?
Nobody knows

[MoanaLisa]

Well, my hope is that they put this out there for KR and CN and see what happens. If 10-man raiding suddenly dies or becomes completely and entirely secondary to 25-man raiding, i.e. 10-man raiding basically gets abandoned in terms of importance, then it's unlikely that US/EU will ever see it. That's coming from someone that prefers 25-format raids. Somehow the pendulum needs to stop somewhere close to the middle on this instead of swinging wildly from one side to the other.

Wait and see is all that anyone can do.