Monk Healing Question.

[Cyriaa]

@ gnorrior

you make a couple of real mistakes in your post that make your comparison of uplift flawed.
ofc if you can get uplift on 10 + people and you jab jab uplift immediatly its gonna do a lot of healing but also a lot of overhealing if 6 orso of those people have not taken dmg. also in a 10man raid if i keep using it on cd i can get it to spread to max 8 people but only for 0.1 sec or so. only with tft will i ever be able to get it on more then 8 so realisticly i will onlyt be able to keep it and use uplift on 7 people in best case scenario making uplift already weaker. but back to the point yes jab is faster chi then soothing but you don't always need faster chi in situations where you don't need to immediatly uplift so in those cases soothing mist is higher hpm and hps then jab and therefore the more effecient way.

saying you have 7500k spirit and not go oom does not help anybody cause i for instance are running with 10k+ spirit and i still go oom on some fights. could be my raid is taking more dmg or other healers are slacking but doesn't take away from the fact that for me spirit comes before intel at this point cause with 7.5k spirit i will go oom way to fast. i am in ilvl 471 gear so naturally i am lacking a lot of intel that you already have and a lot of base spirit from the higher ilvl gear you and other top parse healers have. same goes for extra secondary stats like crit.

also you are stating like affiniti is not in the top parses. but being in the top parses does not automatically make you a better healer then somebody that is not in the parses. it just depends on the raid you are in and what role you got and how good the raid itself is. if a full 25 man raid avoids all dmg that can be avoided versus a raid that does not the healer in the second raid will always have a chance at more healing. also Bloodlegion actually did not upload any parses on World of logs except some alt stuff on 25 normal so you don't even know if he would be in the parses.

but as many people already have said you should try and stop being so condescending towards everybody.

but y im done said everything i wanted to say in this topic.

Actually you bring up a couple of really good points that I want to reiterate. (Idk why I didn't think of them myself tbh). DPS/Damage done and HPS/Healing done are two completely different beasts when it comes to WoL. For the most part Damage done is pretty straight forward, early on if you did a lot of damage you probably did a pretty damn good job on that particular fight just in general. However in healing, if the raid avoids damage then there's nothing to heal, and if there's nothing to heal it doesn't mean that you did any worse or any better than a #1 ranked healer in world of logs. All that means is that the number 1 ranked healer was heal more damage, that could mean that he/she either solo healed a fight that's normally two or three healed, or that the raid simply took more damage and forced that healer to put out more than if the other raid didn't.
Also, all of the fights (every single last one of them) in MGV and the ones that I've seen in HoF are all predictable damage. There's no "I need NOW" random bursts in either raid that I know of. If you're leaving it to the last minute to generate chi and not planning ahead as a minute then you're doing it wrong. Being a healer doesn't mean acting on impulse and reacting to events to keep people alive, being a healer is all about planning ahead and predicting damage, and knowing what you're going to do 5 steps ahead. It's a lot like chess actually, if you're playing it move by move you're probably going to lose, but if you can look ahead and plan your moves accordingly then you're more than likely going to win. Don't let the game play you, play the game, manipulate it and manipulate your opponent into your own plan. Same goes for healing.

[Astraios]

That reason is because it was Paragon, after paragon the next 50 kills were all 25 mans. Out of the first 25 or so kills, only 2 were on ten man.
As of today, October 31, 2012 at 2:40 PM EST, only ten 10man guilds have fully cleared 6/6Heroic MGV as compared to the fifty two 25 man guilds that have downed the same content. As you know, Cataclysm killed off many 25 man guilds and the majority of raiding guilds are 10 mans, which means a higher percentage of 25 mans are clearing content that ten mans aren't. Please argue with me more.

As far as your personal mana problems go, lets not forget that you have far more resources than a ten man would, such as other healers carrying you and more mana cds (Hymn, Mana tide, etc).

Anyways, you can continue believing that you're perfect and jab all you want, I'm going to continue being awesome and doing my thing. Every one of your posts have been very condescending and I'm done with it.

Funny, you seem to think you're automatically right, and I quote math and give my source and suddenly I'm being condescending and just think I'm better than everyone for no reason.
Riiiiight.
Yes other healers are carrying me. I've just got multiple top 10 logs from healing in MGV/HoF because I'm being carried, that's it brosky. If you bothered to look for yourself, you'd see in most of those cases I'm not getting any extra mana and still I'm ending with extra. I stated many times that most of what I was talking about was applied to 25mans.

Times where you need high HPS:
Garalon. Just the entire time you need strong HPS.
Elegon. If you dont heal the add explosions fast enough then the random damage can kill raid members.
Feng. Healing through the velocity requires high HPS/cooldowns. Monks played properly can provide HPS as high as others using CD's with proper preparation.
Zor'lok: Force and Verve.
Ta'yak: Unseen Strike
Will: Some strong AoE healing during gas required.
Stone Guardians needs some strong burst AoE when dogs explode improperly.
Seven of the first ten bosses of this tier have times when burst HPS is very important to keeping >everyone< alive.
A lot of these bursts require healing that lasts more than two globals, or two uplifts. and if you aren't stacked with 15~ people then jabbing for chi and using uplift is absolutely superior to SoM. In down time, SoM is less HPM and HPS, as I stated. I said optimal healing, after all.
I'd love to have a solid theorycrafting talk with you all but being attacked by half the forums and being told that I'm getting carried and all, then proceeded to be told that I'm being condescending to people. Like, really? Pot calling the kettle black?
Anyway, I said the optimal way to generally heal. I didn't say I was going to give you the exact way that I prefer to heal on every single boss and every phase. If you want to do that, I'm open to PMs discussing it since I'm always looking for ways to improve. However you all seem to be taking math and numbers personally, so maybe it's not a good place for actually telling you guys which spells are mathematically superior.
Good luck in Heart of Fear and MGV, they're pretty fun.

[Cyriaa]

Funny, you seem to think you're automatically right, and I quote math and give my source and suddenly I'm being condescending and just think I'm better than everyone for no reason.
Riiiiight.
Yes other healers are carrying me. I've just got multiple top 10 logs from healing in MGV/HoF because I'm being carried, that's it brosky. If you bothered to look for yourself, you'd see in most of those cases I'm not getting any extra mana and still I'm ending with extra. I stated many times that most of what I was talking about was applied to 25mans.

Times where you need high HPS:
Garalon. Just the entire time you need strong HPS.
Elegon. If you dont heal the add explosions fast enough then the random damage can kill raid members.
Feng. Healing through the velocity requires high HPS/cooldowns. Monks played properly can provide HPS as high as others using CD's with proper preparation.
Zor'lok: Force and Verve.
Ta'yak: Unseen Strike
Will: Some strong AoE healing during gas required.
Stone Guardians needs some strong burst AoE when dogs explode improperly.
Seven of the first ten bosses of this tier have times when burst HPS is very important to keeping >everyone< alive.
A lot of these bursts require healing that lasts more than two globals, or two uplifts. and if you aren't stacked with 15~ people then jabbing for chi and using uplift is absolutely superior to SoM. In down time, SoM is less HPM and HPS, as I stated. I said optimal healing, after all.
I'd love to have a solid theorycrafting talk with you all but being attacked by half the forums and being told that I'm getting carried and all, then proceeded to be told that I'm being condescending to people. Like, really? Pot calling the kettle black?
Anyway, I said the optimal way to generally heal. I didn't say I was going to give you the exact way that I prefer to heal on every single boss and every phase. If you want to do that, I'm open to PMs discussing it since I'm always looking for ways to improve. However you all seem to be taking math and numbers personally, so maybe it's not a good place for actually telling you guys which spells are mathematically superior.
Good luck in Heart of Fear and MGV, they're pretty fun.

Maybe you should go back and read all of your responses, if half the forums community as you put it is saying that you're condescending, they're saying it for a reason, probably because you are. Anyways, I'm not going to waste my time searching for your parses when you only gave us your name and the alt code for it. How about if it actually matters to you that you give us a link like I did?
Btw, it bothers me that you think that there's random damage on elegon, there is none.
Add blows up, no damage going out unless you're standing in front of the boss like a baddie. None, not one whatsoever. ANYWHERE. NO DAMAGE AT ALL.
When the next add comes out, THEN there will be "random damage" but it's not even random, it targets two players, it should cast it one to two times depending on how fast you kill it. And that's if you're talking about P1, if you're talking about P2 when the sparks die they won't kill the raid pretty much ever unless they're letting their stacks get high. In which case you have PLENTY of time to top them off, or get them near topped off for the next set of sparks. One uplift will stop them from dying. ONE. So it's not really a high HPS mechanic. As far as the final burn phase goes, SCK SCK CB SCK SCK CB. I pop Xuen once we've gone through our TWO tranq's (boomkin, tree) because by then we have no more cds. Because we're limited on resources, and then I use revival when we start getting low, as well as my personal CDs so I can afford to stay in a bit longer without risk of dying (diffuse magic). The only damage that can be considered "random" isn't even random, and it's so small that it's mostly ignorable and that's during the transition from P3 back into P1 when you're dealing with the pylons (assuming you don't get hit by adds and not standing in circles, which would basically kill you). All the other areas you mentioned are places that can be predicted because they come in at set times in which case you plan ahead for.
As far as your mathematical superiority, it doesn't matter. Healing is an art, you don't go with the most mathematical superior answer every time everywhere.

[McTurbo]

well it is true some top monks do not fistweave but also other monks do fistweave.
there is no 1 way to heal. both healing specs are viable. somebody that does not enjoy fistweaving will never get the full potential out of it and will do better with ranged healing. somebody that likes fistweaving but not ranged healing will get more benefit from fistweaving. its clear that both ways work seeing there are multiple monks with 6/6 HC that use both or use one or the other. for instance affiniti from bloodlegion didn't fistweave at all on HC Elegon 25m while a lot of people say fistweaving is really good there cause of the dmg and healing buff. while affiniti topped healing meter without fistweaving and they got the kill. this shows that it really does not matter what you do as long as you enjoy it and your guild is fine with your performance then everybody should just play what they want.

for example fistweaving can help on a tight enrage timer on a boss to get some extra dmg in. but this is only needed if your dps is not making it on their own. because if the dps makes it without your help then fistweaving is not more useful then ranged healing. if they don't make it and you helping with fistweaving to do some extra dmg to get the kill might be beneficial.

and i know this discussion will always be ongoing between monks and yes theoretically there is always a more effecient way to play. but i think people should play what they like and how they like to play not force themselves upon something they don't like. especially if they can be perfectly fine with the way they play.

and how do you stay in mana fist weaving... its not like you can just sit there jabbing away while the raid is taking damage.. which means your spending mana jabbing, 9000 mana i believe. or 3000 mana using soothing mist.. sorry i tried fist weaving in a 10 man and its just not possible to put out enough healing without going oom from punching to much or having to spot heal durring heavy phases..

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Phaelin/simple maybe im doing something wrong i have no clue ive got as much spirit as i can stack with the gear i have but mana issues seem to be the worst problem im having when it comes to healing.. i go through it so fast.

[Deleted]

and how do you stay in mana fist weaving... its not like you can just sit there jabbing away while the raid is taking damage.. which means your spending mana jabbing, 9000 mana i believe. or 3000 mana using soothing mist.. sorry i tried fist weaving in a 10 man and its just not possible to put out enough healing without going oom from punching to much or having to spot heal durring heavy phases..

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Phaelin/simple maybe im doing something wrong i have no clue ive got as much spirit as i can stack with the gear i have but mana issues seem to be the worst problem im having when it comes to healing.. i go through it so fast.

well the times i do fistweave i don't just spam jab for healing. i keep ReM on cd and expel harm as well. then i just keep Serpent's Zeal up for some free heals for the situations where there is not much healing required. then jab when i know i need chi for uplift or chi burst. just jabbing away a whole fight will never really work except for garajal where you have infinite mana as long as you get send in the spirit realm sometime. but besides that just only use it when you know you need chi. and spend mana tea stacks as much as possible so you don't get behind.

one thing i can tell you is that you are going for haste which is our worst stat at the moment. past 1345 haste rating it has no use for us at all. you barely even cast anything that is not instant. even surging and EM are instant if you just quickly channel soothing mist. so reforge and gem for crit in 10 man and mastery or crit depending on what you like better in 25 man

replace the haste and spirit gems for intel and spirit or intel and crit or crit and spirit just go away from haste completly. also try and replace that brewfest trinket. the 904 intel is good but the proc goes to waste for mistweavers better get the trinket from HC with the 4k spirit on use effect every 2 minutes also enchant your gloves with mastery instead of haste.

also get professions up to 600 they give extra boosts that are really helpful as well stat wise.


also @ gnorrior just because you link a site with numbers doesn't mean your tone is not condescending.
furthermore you say you have multiple top 10 wol rankings but i can't seem to find you in any of the top 10 rankings. just saying. i find you once on 11 at stone guards hc which is indeed not bad at all and the other time i find you on feng spot 38 also not bad but defo not multiple top 10 wol rankings as you mention. nobody said you are not a good healer or a good player but you just need to tone down on the condescending tone of your forum posts. if you do that i can guarentee more people will actually read what you say and you can be a positive contribution to the community.

[Junnia]

The jabbing is just to get the chi more effectively to use your wave/zen/burst/uplift/rjw/sz/tp/EM. I jabbed my way through a ten man and it worked just fine.

[Alltat]

saying you have 7500k spirit and not go oom does not help anybody cause i for instance are running with 10k+ spirit and i still go oom on some fights.

Isn't this precisely why the information is helpful? It lets you compare. If someone is sitting at 7500 spirit and performing well, that shows it can be done, and that if you've got 10k+ spirit and still struggling it could mean you may not managing your mana properly. The fact that you have that much spirit also means you've given up throughput to get it, forcing you to use your spells more, which isn't necessarily a good deal - stacking more spirit will often only make your mana issues worse. I'm sitting around 7k spirit myself with no mana issues while doing enough healing to get WoL rankings.

Low spirit high intellect is not necessarily the most fun play style, but it's pretty effective in the current tier. Even in blue gear.

[Deleted]

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/p4ljvqyd6svj5ixi/

This is me not being bad, and not jabbing.
In case you forgot, surging mists generate chi and it's instant cast while you channel soothing mist.

With a druid almost doing the same healing as you, I would say that is pretty bad. No offence ment, just replying to you "not being bad"

[Alltat]

With a druid almost doing the same healing as you, I would say that is pretty bad. No offence ment, just replying to you "not being bad"

I don't really see how 98.7% of the rank limit can be "pretty bad". It's good. It's not world's-best-grand-prize-phenomenal, but it's good. The druid wasn't too bad either.

[Cyriaa]

I don't really see how 98.7% of the rank limit can be "pretty bad". It's good. It's not world's-best-grand-prize-phenomenal, but it's good. The druid wasn't too bad either.

I'm blessed to be healing with a phenomenal Rdruid, he was keeping up with me on my HPal all throughout DS, and he's doing really good in the current tier as well.

[TheWindWalker]

I'm sitting around 7k spirit myself with no mana issues while doing enough healing to get WoL rankings.

This really confuses me. While testing Glyph of Mana Tea in LFR today, I managed to go OoM on Feng while sitting at 10,290 spirit and being excessively conservative with my SCK usage. I never used Surging Mists and I barely touched CJL during any part of it. Is there some secret to keeping mana up besides [jab+jab+(2 chi user) x 4 then drink]? I've seen even the mods here talk about SCK being "ridiculously cheap" and yet if I use it with any regularity I OoM constantly. (I use RnM, fistweaving, then uplift instead.)


EDIT (3PM EST): After consulting a dedicated Disc Priest friend of mine, it seems I may have simply been a little too eager to DPS even when there wasn't any damage to heal. Hence the downward mana spiral.

[Zeelot]

Personally, of the heroic MSV fights, it's surprising how little fistweaving I do. I think the most I do of the fights is on the first spirit king when we're all stacked on the boss for uplifts from massive-attack damage. So in my opinion, it's definitely not required

[ElfinHilon10]

Wow. This is a metric fuckton of miss information in this thread. Mistweaver's shouldn't be fist weaving, like, at all in raids. It's sub par healing than just sitting back and healing. It's ok to be doing like 1/20th of your healing or so through auto attacks, but it just doesn't heal for enough at the moment.

If you are having chi issues, you need to be using serpent jade statue. Always.

[Alltat]

EDIT (3PM EST): After consulting a dedicated Disc Priest friend of mine, it seems I may have simply been a little too eager to DPS even when there wasn't any damage to heal. Hence the downward mana spiral.

You'll have to hold back and accept empty GCDs. Don't jab unless you need the chi. Don't Uplift if people's health bars are full enough that Renewing Mist can handle it. Expel Harm on cooldown, as it's cheaper chi than Jab (while also doing far more healing). But overall, the key to managing your mana seems to be to relax and let your Renewing Mist do its thing, saving up your mana for bursts of Uplift and SCK spam when it's really necessary.

Check your logs to see how much overhealing your abilities are doing. Eminence (statue included) in particular. That'll give you an idea about where to start improving your mana efficiency.

Mistweaver's shouldn't be fist weaving, like, at all in raids. It's sub par healing than just sitting back and healing.

That's not entirely accurate. The best healing at the moment seems to be a mix, where you use Jab to generate chi when you need it and otherwise stick to using your spells. Knowing the encounters and finding that balance is key. Jabbing ensures you always have chi when you need it, but it's not something you want to do all day long, as that'll just drain your mana (forcing you to stack 10k+ spirit at the cost of throughput stats). The best approach currently is to fistweave a little.

[Unclekreepy]

personally I dislike Fistweaving


classic healing is just fine and does great

[Deleted]

@ alltat are you raiding 10m or 25 man cause that will make a huge difference.

i am raiding 10 man and i do have to help sometimes on tank healing so i need 3 chi for EM which i can't spend on Uplifts and i can't just sit back and wait to only heal on aoe. also the dps in my raid tends to get hit by dmg that they can avoid. but y we are not a hardcore raiding team so i don't expect it from them but i does mean i need to do more healing then other good guilds that can avoid the dmg making me have to use more mana. and seeing we have no other class that can give mana back we have a druid but uses innervate only on herself. we have no rshammy or priests. so i do need more spirit. and yes it costs throughput that is true. but i tried at 7k spirit 8k and 9k spirit and being conservative healing only when needed and still went oom before end of fights.
am trying to stack only intel now to get way more throughput but i lost 1.4k spirit and got 660 sp back don't know if the trade off is actually worth it but i will see on sunday at next raid

[Alltat]

@ alltat are you raiding 10m or 25 man cause that will make a huge difference.

10, but always with a holydin. When two-healing, it's usually me (a mistweaver, obviously) and the holydin, and when three-healing it's us and a shaman or druid. So tank healing usually isn't too much of an issue, and if it is I'll just throw a Chi Wave or Life Cocoon their way. I'm usually free to focus primarily on raid healing, while still keeping an eye on tank health.

[Pieterman]

It's not required to fistweave to get out proper healing. As with any class, if you want to be the best you can be you're gonna have to master multiple aspects of your class.
If you don't like it reroll back to druid/shaman.