shaman patch notes

[Deleted]

-Sooo CPT needs a charging time, because it would be like Shadowfury otherwise (a 100% flawless spell btw), which apparently is bad. W/O TP though, CPT would be more like a tauren's Thunderstomp, just without the short cast time (so fail @ comparison).
-It would be dull and not working as a totem? Who said our stun had to be a stun to begin with? Why does a stun have to be tied to a totem? Dull as in competitive maybe?
-It is dynamic because you can use it with TP, giving it the same effect as Shadowfury, which you yourself said would be dull? Kinda contradictory on your part, isn't it?
-So instead of instantly throwing an aoe stun into apporaching enemies, or instantly aoe stunning them as they have reached you (similar effect to a frost nova), you need to set it up? Not seeing that as a big advantage.

Tbh, CPT to me looks like the weakest stun, only rivaled by the new warlock's spell Cataclysm (because failing at designing one ability encourages making another just as dumb, right?), though warlocks have Felguard stuns and Shadowfury at least. And I guess Remorseless Winter could be better, though I still think it is easier to make it work then CPT.

From what people say, I doesn't appear that shamans are in need of immiment changes pve-wise (except for enh specifically maybe a more comfortable way of aoe-ing maybe), but pvp-wise there's much that could be better (imo). I am kinda underwhelmed to see not a single patch change for enh at this part. Apparantly enh/shaman pvp isn't on blizzard's radar at all.

Are you mad or something? WHat he said is true, It Needs A charging Time cuz it would otherwise be just another STUN. What is the purpose of totems again? Ah, thats right you understand now? THe opponent can react towards the totem. It is a different mechanic, stop comparing it to other stuns. Look at the shaman class and tell me what u see...Stop do homogenizing......ok?

[Chainreactor]

Are you mad or something? WHat he said is true, It Needs A charging Time cuz it would otherwise be just another STUN. What is the purpose of totems again? Ah, thats right you understand now? THe opponent can react towards the totem. It is a different mechanic, stop comparing it to other stuns. Look at the shaman class and tell me what u see...Stop do homogenizing......ok?

He was contradicting himself

but it's kind of necessary. Without it, it becomes a renamed Shadowfury, which is dull and wouldn't work as a totem.

You can for instance use Totemic Projection to port it under a target as it explodes, giving you the same effect as a Shadowfury.

He also proceeds to give an example of how CPT is useful vs Random Mobs
Seriously?

Im all for different mechanics and non homogenized specs but CPT requires Major Glyphs, Projection and Timing to become a second rate Shadowfury with a 15s higher Cooldown
This is Inferior Mechanics not Different

U want different mechanics? Make CPT a Triggered Stun

[Irisia]

He was contradicting himself

I should have compared it to a War Stomp, my bad. But I stand by what I said, having a renamed ability is boring, having one that CAN work as another ability with talents, glyphs and a brain is not.

He also proceeds to give an example of how CPT is useful vs Random Mobs
Seriously?

Yes, seriously. I just did some dailys and pulled an example from that. I didn't expect to have to explain that it can be used in the same way in other situations as well.

[mjolnrik]

[/LIST]

I changed the bullets to make it easier to respond point-for-point.

1. Totemic Restoration is not bugged that I am aware of. In fact, I just tested it, both with recalling totems with Totemic Recall, and having a Grounding Totem absorb a spell, and both effects reduced the duration by close to 50%, exactly as expected.

Its a strange talent, most of the times it works fine but then some times it doesnt seem to reduce my cdown atall. I think it depends on the speed it gets destroyed. If for instance my opponent is about to finish casting a spell and i pop a grounding totem, grounding totem absorbs the hit but the cdown doesnt get reduced.

[Deleted]

I dont mind the nature of enha-aoe. The only problem i really have is when killing weak enemies that die of flameshock and i cant nova them. Compared to like unholy dk, its not much different:
Dnd
diseases (either from plague strike &icy touch or the 2 instant spreading ones)
Pestilence if not speced to roiling blood
blood boils

this takes away some of the single target dmg while enhace can keep it relatively the same but also gaining some from the extra novas.

[Chainreactor]

I should have compared it to a War Stomp, my bad. But I stand by what I said, having a renamed ability is boring, having one that CAN work as another ability with talents, glyphs and a brain is not.

On its own the CPT is Garbage
With Talents Glyphs and Brains its an Inferior Shadowfury

How is that a good thing?

[Endus]

On its own the CPT is Garbage
With Talents Glyphs and Brains its an Inferior Shadowfury

How is that a good thing?

Comparing abilities to other class' abilities never works, because abilities are designed with the context of the rest of the class in mind.

That's why everyone's stuns are different, and some are stronger than others.

[Chainreactor]

Comparing abilities to other class' abilities never works, because abilities are designed with the context of the rest of the class in mind.

That's why everyone's stuns are different, and some are stronger than others.

Yeah seems legit that Ele gets the weakest and most easily countered stun in the game seeing as the Spec has very strong survivability and CC Mechanics regardless of CPT

[Endus]

Yeah seems legit that Ele gets the weakest and most easily countered stun in the game seeing as the Spec has very strong survivability and CC Mechanics regardless of CPT

CT is by no means the weakest stun in the game. It's one of the strongest AoE stuns. It's more difficult to execute, to balance that out, similar to other comparable stuns like Remorseless Winter.

If it were an instant-cast 5-second AoE stun at any range, it would be OP.

You keep comparing it to Shadowfury, but Shadowfury is only a 3 second stun, Capacitor Totem is a 5 second stun. That right there is a big factor in why they're different.


And again; you're still trying to do 1:1 comparisons between abilities, which again is a useless argument, since abilities are not intended to be equivalent between classes. Some classes have better stuns than us. And that's fine. If you think that's an imbalance, then you do not understand the first thing about how class balance is done.

[Chainreactor]

CT is by no means the weakest stun in the game. It's one of the strongest AoE stuns. It's more difficult to execute, to balance that out, similar to other comparable stuns like Remorseless Winter.

If it were an instant-cast 5-second AoE stun at any range, it would be OP.

You keep comparing it to Shadowfury, but Shadowfury is only a 3 second stun, Capacitor Totem is a 5 second stun. That right there is a big factor in why they're different.

Shadowfury is a 3 Sec Stun on a 30 Second CD compared to Capacitor Totem which is 5 Sec Cast then 5 Sec Stun on 45 Sec CD
CPT Major Glyphs makes it a 3 Sec Cast and 3 Sec Stun on a 45 Sec CD and this Glyph is absolutely needed if one wants to reliably use CPT in PvP

Glyph or no Glyph the CPT is Inferior to Shadowfury

And again; you're still trying to do 1:1 comparisons between abilities, which again is a useless argument, since abilities are not intended to be equivalent between classes. Some classes have better stuns than us. And that's fine. If you think that's an imbalance, then you do not understand the first thing about how class balance is done.

Bro CPT is Garbage
And ur justification to CPT being Garbage is that classes are different

When it comes to class balance Elemental Shaman always gets the short end of the stick[COLOR="red"]

Btw

It's one of the strongest AoE stuns.

And
Lava Burst is one of the strongest Damage Spells
Earthquake is one of the strongest AoE Spells
Hex is one of the strongest CC

The lols is strong with this one

[Endus]

Shadowfury is a 3 Sec Stun on a 30 Second CD compared to Capacitor Totem which is 5 Sec Cast then 5 Sec Stun on 45 Sec CD
CPT Major Glyphs makes it a 3 Sec Cast and 3 Sec Stun on a 45 Sec CD and this Glyph is absolutely needed if one wants to reliably use CPT in PvP

Glyph or no Glyph the CPT is Inferior to Shadowfury



Bro CPT is Garbage
And ur justification to CPT being Garbage is that classes are different

When it comes to class balance Elemental Shaman always gets the short end of the stick[COLOR="red"]

None of this actually refutes my statement, or provides any counterargument.

Abilities are not meant to be identical to each other. That's a simple fact. And your entire argument is predicated on the false presumption that they should be.

You're wrong. That doesn't mean Elemental is just fine, but you aren't proving a damn thing with what you're saying. It doesn't in any way matter if CPT is the worst stun in the game. At all. It is completely irrelevant. I don't agree that it is, but even if it were, it doesn't show that there's any class imbalance.

[Omanley]

It Needs A charging Time cuz it would otherwise be just another STUN. What is the purpose of totems again? Ah, thats right you understand now? THe opponent can react towards the totem. It is a different mechanic, stop comparing it to other stuns. Look at the shaman class and tell me what u see...Stop do homogenizing......ok?

Cataclysm from Warlocks and Death Knights' Remorseless Winter have charging times as well, so in a sense our Stun is already homogenisized. Like those other stuns, CPT is easy to counter and hard to make it work. As said before it requires glyphs and talents to be made remotely comfortable to use. Difference does not equalize quality. If they want to give us something new, it should be actually be good. Enhance's aoe in 4.1 was unique and different as well, but the crappiest crap ever. It provided low numbers, required long aoe-phases, long ramp up time and was totally chaotic. Unique/new =/= fun.

I should have compared it to a War Stomp, my bad. But I stand by what I said, having a renamed ability is boring, having one that CAN work as another ability with talents, glyphs and a brain is not.

The problem is that CPT without any support is flat out bad. It is crap without them, simple as that (except against brainless npcs). You need to heavily support it AND play smart to achieve what another player is easily accomplishing just with taking a talent (the ability itself).
Totems always had their drawbacks. There hardly ever have been totems that were stronger than comparable abilities, justifying their drawbacks. CPT in its effect is not unique. The only unique aspect is that it is slapped on the inferior aspect of a totem. Totems just by themselves are a chunk of limitations. Either lower the limitations of totems, or heavily enhance their benefits to justify those. CPT hardly grants anything near worth the effort of making it work.

The aspect of totems itself wouldn't be bad, if they provided as much as our key mechanic would make one believe they did. But they dont. They are basically weaker versions of Spell Reflect (grounding), Shadowfury (CPT), Freezing Trap (Earthbind)/Earthgrab(Frostnova), Power Word: Shield (SBT) etc.

CPT has even more drawbacks than other totems, and that's saying something. Just another stun? Maybe. But I rather have "just another competitive pvp tool" than "wtf is this sh*t?!*.

---------- Post added 2012-11-06 at 06:58 PM ----------

CT is by no means the weakest stun in the game. It's one of the strongest AoE stuns. It's more difficult to execute, to balance that out, similar to other comparable stuns like Remorseless Winter.

You yourself said you were never ever hit by Remorseless Winter (and it is easier to execute than CPT). And you say that's balanced? An ability that hardly ever works is useless, no matter how strong.

[Chainreactor]

None of this actually refutes my statement, or provides any counterargument.

the argument is
1) CPT is Junk
2) CPT becomes moderately useful and still inferior to Shadowfury with Major Glyphs, Projection, Timing and not to mention half wit opponents

in addition l if u take Projection u miss out on Restoration (15 Sec CD on Earth's Grasp)

Abilities are not meant to be identical to each other. That's a simple fact. And your entire argument is predicated on the false presumption that they should be.

Give Warlocks this 5 Sec Charge and 5 Sec Stun instead of Shadowfury
Give Mages / Priest a weak shield tied to an Earth Totem instead of Ice Barrier / PW:Shield

Sadly these broken mechanics are reserved for Elemental Shamans
To keep abilities non identical its the Elemental Shaman that is put forward as a Goat for Sacrifice

You're wrong. That doesn't mean Elemental is just fine, but you aren't proving a damn thing with what you're saying. It doesn't in any way matter if CPT is the worst stun in the game. At all. It is completely irrelevant. I don't agree that it is, but even if it were, it doesn't show that there's any class imbalance.

It doesnt need proving
CPT is a garbage mechanic which ever way u put it

[Endus]

You yourself said you were never ever hit by Remorseless Winter (and it is easier to execute than CPT). And you say that's balanced? An ability that hardly ever works is useless, no matter how strong.

Yes, it's balanced, because the strength on a successful use is that much greater than that of "easier" stuns. That's precisely the balancing factor in play.

If it were a 1 second charge with a 2 second stun, that would also be balanced, as it would be easier to pull off but less effective when you do. That might make it more useful in practice, but it doesn't mean the ability itself is somehow "not balanced" simply because it's balanced a certain way. Nor is the state of one ability absent any context in any way a discussion of the state of balance of the class or spec as a whole. Which is why I keep trying to turn this back to discussing the class or spec as a whole, which actually IS a relevant and profitable discussion topic.

Picking one ability and harping on it like this is just distracting and irrelevant. It contributes nothing, and is based on a gross misunderstanding of basic game design principles.

the argument is
1) CPT is Junk
2) CPT becomes moderately useful and still inferior to Shadowfury with Major Glyphs, Projection, Timing and not to mention half wit opponents

in addition l if u take Projection u miss out on Restoration (15 Sec CD on Earth's Grasp)

That's not an argument, 1> is a conclusion with no premises provided to support it, and 2> is irrelevant because abilities aren't balanced against other class' abilities.

So it's two baseless and pointless statements that contribute nothing to the discussion and prove nothing in and of themselves. Which is why I said it's not an argument. Because it's not. It's baseless complaining.

Sadly these broken mechanics are reserved for Elemental Shamans
To keep abilities non identical its the Elemental Shaman that is put forward as a Goat for Sacrifice

This is basically no different from those guys who stand on street corners ranting about how the end of the world is nigh. Particularly since you're talking about Shaman class abilities, not Elemental spec abilities, and both Enh and Resto are doing pretty solidly well in PvP right now, even with CPT in its current state. The issue isn't CPT, and making CPT stronger would likely make particularly Restoration way too strong.

And the idea that Elemental Shaman are somehow the whipping boy? No, that's alarmist doom-and-gloom trolling. You'll cut that out, now.

[Chainreactor]

That's not an argument, 1> is a conclusion with no premises provided to support it, and 2> is irrelevant because abilities aren't balanced against other class' abilities.

So it's two baseless and pointless statements that contribute nothing to the discussion and prove nothing in and of themselves. Which is why I said it's not an argument. Because it's not. It's baseless complaining.

Its a 5 Sec Cast 5 Sec Stun tied to a 5HP Totem
What more do u need to know to prove the fact that its useless?

This is basically no different from those guys who stand on street corners ranting about how the end of the world is nigh. Particularly since you're talking about Shaman class abilities, not Elemental spec abilities, and both Enh and Resto are doing pretty solidly well in PvP right now, even with CPT in its current state. The issue isn't CPT, and making CPT stronger would likely make particularly Restoration way too strong.

I dont play Enhance so i wont comment
Resto is doing strong regardless of CPT and what nots simply because Resto's mechanics are very strong and well thought out

And the idea that Elemental Shaman are somehow the whipping boy? No, that's alarmist doom-and-gloom trolling. You'll cut that out, now.

Whats this? Having an opinion that Elemental Shaman is one of the most shit on specs PvP wise is trolling? And i should Cut it out?

[shell]

Its a 5 Sec Cast 5 Sec Stun tied to a 5HP Totem
What more do u need to know to prove the fact that its useless?




I dont play Enhance so i wont comment
Resto is doing strong regardless of CPT and what nots simply because Resto's mechanics are very strong and well thought out



Whats this? Having an opinion that Elemental Shaman is one of the most shit on specs PvP wise is trolling? And i should Cut it out?

Yes, because of the way you're doing it, it's not constructive at all. Also, you need to move away from the whole capacitor is junk argument, it doesn't make you look good, when people with decent ratings are using it effectively and you can't. I'm not saying your bad but maybe its something you need to work on. Its an ability with a skill cap, that doesn't make it junk.

[Chainreactor]

Yes, because of the way you're doing it, it's not constructive at all. Also, you need to move away from the whole capacitor is junk argument, it doesn't make you look good, when people with decent ratings are using it effectively and you can't. I'm not saying your bad but maybe its something you need to work on. Its an ability with a skill cap, that doesn't make it junk.

There is not much constructive posts one can make regarding CPT
Im merely contradicting the opinion that CPT in its current state is "Fine"

Exceptional players can make the Spec work hell they can achieve Gladiator with it but u cant assume the same for everyone now can u?

I have quite frankly given up on Elemental Shaman as my Destruction/Demo Warlock feels outright superior
Ofcourse my opinion is ONLY for Elemental Shaman as i believe Resto is borderline OP considering its Burst heals for one

[Endus]

Its a 5 Sec Cast 5 Sec Stun tied to a 5HP Totem
What more do u need to know to prove the fact that its useless?

Anything that amounts to an argument. None of what you said there shows that it's useless, just that it has limitations. And everything has limitations. Limitations do not show a class design flaw.

Resto is doing strong regardless of CPT and what nots simply because Resto's mechanics are very strong and well thought out

Mechanics that include CPT, and boosting them even more by improving CPT would therefore make an already strong spec even stronger.

So I repeat; the issues Elemental is having have nothing to do with CPT. CPT is not flawed. It works just fine. It's not easy to use well, but it's really strong if you can pull it off. This is just fine. If Elemental needs a boost, it needs it in Elemental-specific ways, that don't affect Resto.

Whats this? Having an opinion that Elemental Shaman is one of the most shit on specs PvP wise is trolling? And i should Cut it out?

No, spamming the thread with "it sucks, and Elemental Shaman always get shit on" is trolling. You're not contributing to constructive discussion, which is the purpose of the forum.

It's kind of like how if someone really honestly believes that black people are inferior, that doesn't make them not-racist, and it doesn't mean we'd let them spew that crap here. Elemental's had several decent seasons in the past. We don't always get shit on.

[Alwayshealing]

I think Resto right now is as strong as ever personally.

[Chainreactor]

Anything that amounts to an argument. None of what you said there shows that it's useless, just that it has limitations. And everything has limitations. Limitations do not show a class design flaw.

Limitations to the point of uselessness

Mechanics that include CPT, and boosting them even more by improving CPT would therefore make an already strong spec even stronger.

So I repeat; the issues Elemental is having have nothing to do with CPT. CPT is not flawed. It works just fine. It's not easy to use well, but it's really strong if you can pull it off. This is just fine. If Elemental needs a boost, it needs it in Elemental-specific ways, that don't affect Resto.

- Resto is strong and will remain strong regardless of CPT's existence
- Elemental has issues regardless of CPT's existence
- CPT is inferior and flawed

Tell me something
Do u use the Vanilla CPT or the Glyphed CPT with Projection?

No, spamming the thread with "it sucks, and Elemental Shaman always get shit on" is trolling. You're not contributing to constructive discussion, which is the purpose of the forum.

It's kind of like how if someone really honestly believes that black people are inferior, that doesn't make them not-racist, and it doesn't mean we'd let them spew that crap here. Elemental's had several decent seasons in the past. We don't always get shit on.

How do u even bring in something like "black people" as an analogy to a Spec in a Video Game :|

And harsh criticism is trolling now so ok ill abide and jump on the Ele is fine and only slightly "Undertuned" bandwagon then
No more "Deconstructive" Posts from my side