10man 5.1 - Mistweaver vs other healers

[Glurp]

With the nerfs coming to Mistweavers in patch 5.1 I am wondering how we will stack up against other healers.

Currently on live we are far ahead of all other healers in 25man and slightly ahead in 10man and I believe the nerfs are targeted at bring Mistweavers back down in 25mans but it will hurt us quite a bit in 10man, putting us below/on the same level as other healers. So what you say? The main issue I have is that monks have very little raid utility compared to other healers. Life Cocoon is terrible and barely does more than PW:S and Revival serves very little use apart from clutch healing to stop random deaths.

I was thinking about rerolling from a Mistweaver to a Resto Shaman. Resto Shamans have a lot more raid utility and cooldowns though Spirit link, Ascendance, Healing Tide, Mana Tide and Stormlash Totem.

The following values are from my guild's heroic Feng kill this week. The shaman we had in the group that kill is an unplayed offspec because we didn't have a 3rd healer that night so numbers are lower from him.

Monk healing: 24,451,990
Druid healing: 17,218,687
Shaman healing: 14,941,645

If we assume an approximate 20% reduction in our healing output it would put me at 19,561,592 total healing and the druid's numbers would be likely to increase as his HoTs aren't sniped as much by Chi burst/uplift. Is there really any point in playing a mid-range output healer who has terrible raid utility/cooldowns?

[Deleted]

With the nerfs coming to Mistweavers in patch 5.1 I am wondering how we will stack up against other healers.

Currently on live we are far ahead of all other healers in 25man and slightly ahead in 10man and I believe the nerfs are targeted at bring Mistweavers back down in 25mans but it will hurt us quite a bit in 10man, putting us below/on the same level as other healers. So what you say? The main issue I have is that monks have very little raid utility compared to other healers. Life Cocoon is terrible and barely does more than PW:S and Revival serves very little use apart from clutch healing to stop random deaths.

I was thinking about rerolling from a Mistweaver to a Resto Shaman. Resto Shamans have a lot more raid utility and cooldowns though Spirit link, Ascendance, Healing Tide, Mana Tide and Stormlash Totem.

The following values are from my guild's heroic Feng kill this week. The shaman we had in the group that kill is an unplayed offspec because we didn't have a 3rd healer that night so numbers are lower from him.

Monk healing: 24,451,990
Druid healing: 17,218,687
Shaman healing: 14,941,645

If we assume an approximate 20% reduction in our healing output it would put me at 19,561,592 total healing and the druid's numbers would be likely to increase as his HoTs aren't sniped as much by Chi burst/uplift. Is there really any point in playing a mid-range output healer who has terrible raid utility/cooldowns?

So basically, we're being brought back in line with other healers yet we're no longer viable in 10 man? gotcha.

[Xiaya]

The majority of nerfs will impact 25 man much more greatly than 10 man. With the changes to Renewing Mist, the new target cap will not impact you at all with the added bonus of it ticking faster (less over heals) actually might being a HPS increase. The increased mana cost of Surging/Soothing is actually still less mana than what they are on live (they nerfed mana cost then buffed them) and with the changes to Mana Tea you probably will end up with a wash.

[Glurp]

So basically, we're being brought back in line with other healers yet we're no longer viable in 10 man? gotcha.

I never said we're not viable, but we would have less use to a raid group. The Mistweaver toolkit consists of an insane ammount of AoE heals and bad raid cooldowns. If they take away the insane AoE heals we're left with a mid-range healing output and bad raid cooldowns, making us a lot weaker in terms of usefulness in a raid group.

[Deleted]

The majority of nerfs will impact 25 man much more greatly than 10 man. With the changes to Renewing Mist, the new target cap will not impact you at all with the added bonus of it ticking faster (less over heals) actually might being a HPS increase. The increased mana cost of Surging/Soothing is actually still less mana than what they are on live (they nerfed mana cost then buffed them) and with the changes to Mana Tea you probably will end up with a wash.

Well said

[Totaltotemic]

Protip: SCK isn't being nerfed. The RM (and by extension, Uplift) nerf also barely touches 10 man. To assume that the nerfs would amount to 20% of your healing is silly, less than 20% of your healing would have to have come from Eminence (Xuen alone is usually 5%), single target heals, Revival, and you'd have to assume that you're getting the full 25% reduction on RM and Uplift, which just isn't true. You're assuming a lot worse numbers than it is in reality, Mistweavers will still be fine.

[Bartolo]

Can't agree more with what was said. MW only utility in 25m is their AoE heal throughput. The nerf to RM split is going to badly affect MW in 25m. Too bad blizzard is listening to whiners who don't have a clue about what healing team means. If MW were so OP we would see top guilds killing bosses with more than 1 or 2 in their roster.

[Deleted]

It continues to baffle me how people only see the ReM spread nerf and have absolutely 0 regard for the significant buffs we receive simultaneously. For 10man it is entirely up in the air whether we're actually being nerfed or buffed with the amount of things stacking up against each other.

[wrathblade]

atm hes not talking about all the nrefs we get and the buffs we could get.

hes talking about blizz trying to reduce our aoe heals while thats the 1 thing be excel at!
aka why take a monk? when you can have a priest giving you another raid CD or a shaman for a extra mana tide totem?
why not a druid? tranq is nice.

no monks atm give very little to a raid unless blizz makes bosses that cast some massive single target spells we can absorb using our little * raid CD *

[Alianthos]

atm hes not talking about all the nrefs we get and the buffs we could get.

hes talking about blizz trying to reduce our aoe heals while thats the 1 thing be excel at!
aka why take a monk? when you can have a priest giving you another raid CD or a shaman for a extra mana tide totem?
why not a druid? tranq is nice.

no monks atm give very little to a raid unless blizz makes bosses that cast some massive single target spells we can absorb using our little * raid CD *

Exactly ! Without the extra healing output, we dont bring anything valuable to the raid anymore. Why take us instead of a Sham ? They have excellent AOE, and so many cooldowns...

[Kenai]

Exactly ! Without the extra healing output, we dont bring anything valuable to the raid anymore. Why take us instead of a Sham ? They have excellent AOE, and so many cooldowns...

Just because MW is lacking in utility doesn't mean they have to have the sheer discrepancies they do in 25s. They can still be higher, but it doesn't need to be THAT high. That didn't work for Druid in FL and it doesn't work for Monk now (although they aren't nerfing Monk as bad here because it's not as bad as Druid was then).

Even then, there's no reason to think Monk throughput won't still be higher if things stay as they are now. There's better overall Chi regeneration for more stacks of Tea, Ascension got a huge buff, and between those two the Mana cost increase to some of our spells is trivial at best. Throw in better use of crit and another obtainable haste threshold and I'm thinking we overall got a net buff (if you aren't a 25 man raider). If we want better utility (and we need it) our HPS is going to have to give, and it's still slated to be on top even now.

[Bartolo]

In fact if RM was spreading to 2 targets instantly I could consider the nerf as being smarter.

[Astraios]

Just because MW is lacking in utility doesn't mean they have to have the sheer discrepancies they do in 25s. They can still be higher, but it doesn't need to be THAT high. That didn't work for Druid in FL and it doesn't work for Monk now (although they aren't nerfing Monk as bad here because it's not as bad as Druid was then).

Even then, there's no reason to think Monk throughput won't still be higher if things stay as they are now. There's better overall Chi regeneration for more stacks of Tea, Ascension got a huge buff, and between those two the Mana cost increase to some of our spells is trivial at best. Throw in better use of crit and another obtainable haste threshold and I'm thinking we overall got a net buff (if you aren't a 25 man raider). If we want better utility (and we need it) our HPS is going to have to give, and it's still slated to be on top even now.

See, the problem is there are only a few fights where monks higher throughput REALLY matters. Garalon, Will. Really about it. Technically if you were to bring two monks you might consider dropping another healer and 4healing fights. But, monks lack spot healing and have weak tank healing, as well as horrible tank/raid CD's. So that doesn't happen. Which means the only place that AoE healing is useful is on Garalon. Monks are only "stupidly strong" when they are healing a raid which is normally not topped, because of a complete and total lack of smart heals. A 18s HoT is not a smart heal. Granted, my guild may be over-healing the content at the moment, but between 2 rshams, a disc priest, and a holy paladin, it's pretty competitive between the disc priest, 2 rshams, and I.

So without our throughput (assuming the following nerf) we're really left in one position: stack mastery for throughput and hope its raidwide damage heal-able via SCK. Tank healing (in 25s) will still suck. Spot healing will be even worse (Surging Mist mana cost LOLOLOL.) Raid healing CD being a fixed amount (somewhere around 1.4 million for me, including crits) which splits on ALL pets/etc (Love when my hunter has stampede up and I use revival. Just cut off eight out of thirty three of my raid heal, NBD. Because it's not bad enough, MIRITE.), no raid damage reduction, no real tank CD.

I mean don't get me wrong, we'll still top meters on certain fights, like garalon and will, and we will do it FAR above other healers, our highest throughput rotations were nerfed by around 10% (still worlds above what any other healer can do). On the other hand, our spot healing was signifcantly hurt. (Uplift being on the right targets will be EVEN LESS likely than it is now, because of less targets.) As well, healing with a disc will be painful. Disc is amazing with class' who have smart heals. PoH crit on this guy? awesome! huge shield. But his health wont drop. Smart heals dont care about him not taking damage. Uplift, on the other hand, does. There are gaping wide holes in our toolkit, and they need to be addressed if they are going to take away our only strength, which is our completely out of control raid healing. (Which they still barely touched because SCK is still redic.)

I'm not saying that we should have this level of healing comparing to other healers.
But based on our current toolkit and weakness', its the only reason we're viable.
I am saying that we deserve to be viable. So, if you're nerfing the ridic raid healing, give us raid utility, tank cd's, spot healing, etc. Otherwise Rshams will do everything we can, but better. (And I personally think a 25% nerf to uplift healing wouldve been better than a 25% target reduction. The effects of less targets is not nearly as clear as 25% healing reduction, because of overhealing etc.)

[Deleted]

[...] and the druid's numbers would be likely to increase as his HoTs aren't sniped as much by Chi burst/uplift

You said all and enough.
Stop watching at the HPS, it really doesn't mean nothing when HoTs come into play, cause healing is not about steal hps to other healers.
Monks are totally different and too much easy\op to play regardless of how they are at the moment, especially in 10 man.
Casting 3 renewing mist+thunder focus tea (that has 45 sec cooldown and with the 18 sec of the played 3xRM means you can barely have RM on EVERY player for the 80% of the fight if you manage it well) and push uplift glyphed is, imho, a clever, (cheap if unglyphed), long-term raid cooldown, it's just all about timing.
Even on tanks, seriously, what's the problem? Maybe, isn't the monk but the tank you're healing.
Monk's spell single target are all instant, that means you can just stay with your Soothing Mist all the time, using Surging Mist when necessary and use Enveloping Mist on 3 Chi (if blizz should nerf something, should be this). It's proactive playing, not reactive.
And to be honest, mana isn't an issue at all, since with HoTs up you can just sit and drink your tea. I usually stay at 90% of mana all the time, even on heroics.
Generally, you should be really happy that monks haven't raid cooldown because it's too silly pushing a single button. They instead should remove cooldowns from other healers, especially shamans', cause totems are just ridicolous.

[Obamatheone]

Sham that chopped up garbage isn't even worthy of a response.

[Deleted]

So basically, we're being brought back in line with other healers yet we're no longer viable in 10 man? gotcha.

Very much so. Because we only have Revival, on a 3 min CD and it PALES when compared to tranquillity and healing surge totem or hymn.

Not to mention we totally lack massive output CDs (Druids and Paladins), Blanket full raid heals on a short CD (priests), Damage reduction CD (Paladins, Shamans, Priests), tank saving CDs (paladins, druids).

In B4 "life cocoon": in heroics, it gets smashed in one auto-attack and the +hot component is gone.

---------- Post added 2012-11-11 at 06:33 PM ----------

You said all and enough.
Stop watching at the HPS, it really doesn't mean nothing when HoTs come into play, cause healing is not about steal hps to other healers.
Monks are totally different and too much easy\op to play regardless of how they are at the moment, especially in 10 man.
Casting 3 renewing mist+thunder focus tea (that has 45 sec cooldown and with the 18 sec of the played 3xRM means you can barely have RM on EVERY player for the 80% of the fight if you manage it well) and push uplift glyphed is, imho, a clever, (cheap if unglyphed), long-term raid cooldown, it's just all about timing.
Even on tanks, seriously, what's the problem? Maybe, isn't the monk but the tank you're healing.
Monk's spell single target are all instant, that means you can just stay with your Soothing Mist all the time, using Surging Mist when necessary and use Enveloping Mist on 3 Chi (if blizz should nerf something, should be this). It's proactive playing, not reactive.
And to be honest, mana isn't an issue at all, since with HoTs up you can just sit and drink your tea. I usually stay at 90% of mana all the time, even on heroics.
Generally, you should be really happy that monks haven't raid cooldown because it's too silly pushing a single button. They instead should remove cooldowns from other healers, especially shamans', cause totems are just ridicolous.

I'm not sure you even HAVE a monk healer. You use uplift GLYPHED and you end up at 90% mana? Sorry but it's impossible. My Monk with an average Ilvl of 487 can't do it. You use soothing all the time and cast enveloping and surging at will? Wow... the Soothing Mist target will be properly overhealed, because you know you're only healing that target right?

[Totaltotemic]

You said all and enough.
Stop watching at the HPS, it really doesn't mean nothing when HoTs come into play, cause healing is not about steal hps to other healers.
Monks are totally different and too much easy\op to play regardless of how they are at the moment, especially in 10 man.
Casting 3 renewing mist+thunder focus tea (that has 45 sec cooldown and with the 18 sec of the played 3xRM means you can barely have RM on EVERY player for the 80% of the fight if you manage it well) and push uplift glyphed is, imho, a clever, (cheap if unglyphed), long-term raid cooldown, it's just all about timing.
Even on tanks, seriously, what's the problem? Maybe, isn't the monk but the tank you're healing.
Monk's spell single target are all instant, that means you can just stay with your Soothing Mist all the time, using Surging Mist when necessary and use Enveloping Mist on 3 Chi (if blizz should nerf something, should be this). It's proactive playing, not reactive.
And to be honest, mana isn't an issue at all, since with HoTs up you can just sit and drink your tea. I usually stay at 90% of mana all the time, even on heroics.
Generally, you should be really happy that monks haven't raid cooldown because it's too silly pushing a single button. They instead should remove cooldowns from other healers, especially shamans', cause totems are just ridicolous.

Judging by the fact that most of your only posts are in the Shaman forums about Resto (which you seem to be quite knowledgeable about) and the fact that this entire post is about as wrong as you can get (seriously, Monk single target healing is what's OP? don't make me laugh), I'm going to say that you do not play a Mistweaver and have no idea what you're talking about. I think we'd all appreciate it if you stayed off the Monk forums.

[Kenai]

See, the problem is there are only a few fights where monks higher throughput REALLY matters.

Sure, I could agree with that. Similarly, I'd also argue there are very few fights where our lack of utility really matters, especially if one is not doing hardcore progression (and at this point the hardcore progression for the available raids is almost over).

But, monks lack spot healing and have weak tank healing, as well as horrible tank/raid CD's. So that doesn't happen. Which means the only place that AoE healing is useful is on Garalon. Monks are only "stupidly strong" when they are healing a raid which is normally not topped, because of a complete and total lack of smart heals. A 18s HoT is not a smart heal. Granted, my guild may be over-healing the content at the moment, but between 2 rshams, a disc priest, and a holy paladin, it's pretty competitive between the disc priest, 2 rshams, and I.

I wouldn't say that Monks "lack" spot healing so much as that it is incredibly unsustainable to do for anything but emergencies (unless you have a Chi surplus for constant Enveloping Mist), but that's part of what makes Monk what it is. That's why we will still have higher throughput and probably continue to, because even though the lack of ReM control usually doesn't matter, it still does sometimes. But the fact is, Monk HPS should not be that high even with that utility lacking, because that *is not balanced*. Monk needs to be better balanced, rather than be HPS one-trick ponies. This is a step along the way to that goal.

Raid healing CD being a fixed amount (somewhere around 1.4 million for me, including crits) which splits on ALL pets/etc (Love when my hunter has stampede up and I use revival. Just cut off eight out of thirty three of my raid heal, NBD. Because it's not bad enough, MIRITE.), no raid damage reduction, no real tank CD.

I don't disagree with any of this, and now that the HPS in 25's has been tned down, those discrepancies that are bad for us can probably be better addressed. Hopefully in a timely fashion. I am pretty sure that Blizzard is continually monitoring Monk data more than any other class right now.

I'm not saying that we should have this level of healing comparing to other healers.
But based on our current toolkit and weakness', its the only reason we're viable.
I am saying that we deserve to be viable. So, if you're nerfing the ridic raid healing, give us raid utility, tank cd's, spot healing, etc. Otherwise Rshams will do everything we can, but better. (And I personally think a 25% nerf to uplift healing wouldve been better than a 25% target reduction. The effects of less targets is not nearly as clear as 25% healing reduction, because of overhealing etc.)

I think we have different definitions of "viable" and I also think you are jumping to a few conclusions, especially since we don't have any real PTR data and the changes aren't finalized. Uplift being nerfed directly would have had far more of an impact on 10s (where Monk is far more balanced) than 25s, but as it stands they are barely going to feel a thing, assuming they actually bother to use TF Tea now. As I said, potential and effective raid healing of Monks *is* still higher, and if we are lacking in other areas (and we are) then these changes had to happen before they would be addressed. I would have preferred utility gains at the same time to be sure, but we aren't crippled or anything by this update.

[Deleted]

I'm not sure you even HAVE a monk healer. You use uplift GLYPHED and you end up at 90% mana? Sorry but it's impossible. My Monk with an average Ilvl of 487 can't do it. You use soothing all the time and cast enveloping and surging at will? Wow... the Soothing Mist target will be properly overhealed, because you know you're only healing that target right?

Judging by the fact that most of your only posts are in the Shaman forums about Resto (which you seem to be quite knowledgeable about) and the fact that this entire post is about as wrong as you can get (seriously, Monk single target healing is what's OP? don't make me laugh), I'm going to say that you do not play a Mistweaver and have no idea what you're talking about. I think we'd all appreciate it if you stayed off the Monk forums.

The same questions that comes in my head by reading these threads about mistweavers.
Actually healing without ending mana, topping meters, healing raid and tanks at the same time, even spamming SCK for fun.
I'm happy about how mistweaver is working now, and yes, i played shaman in cata and i felt a little embarassed when SLT comes into play, and how regen works at the end of expansion with TC.
The same when now i'm comparing my mana and the hps with the others healers during fight.
The same disappointing when i also see a 30% of RM and Uplift in overhealing.
I'm neither stacking spirit at the moment and my ilvl is 391 with even no set gear, so i'm afraid that it will become boring at the end of the tier.
Just to say that i'm not surprised about this nerf, i think it has to be done.
If they have to add some utilities, just modify how mastery\spheres works.
However, you are only compared healing, but you forget one of the most Mistweaver underrated raid utilities: his dps.
And yeah, i play a mistweaver.

[Deleted]

The same questions that comes in my head by reading these threads about mistweavers.
Actually healing without ending mana, topping meters, healing raid and tanks at the same time, even spamming SCK for fun.
I'm happy about how mistweaver is working now, and yes, i played shaman in cata and i felt a little embarassed when SLT comes into play, and how regen works at the end of expansion with TC.
The same when now i'm comparing my mana and the hps with the others healers during fight.
The same disappointing when i also see a 30% of RM and Uplift in overhealing.
I'm neither stacking spirit at the moment and my ilvl is 391 with even no set gear, so i'm afraid that it will become boring at the end of the tier.
Just to say that i'm not surprised about this nerf, i think it has to be done.
If they have to add some utilities, just modify how mastery\spheres works.
However, you are only compared healing, but you forget one of the most Mistweaver underrated raid utilities: his dps.
And yeah, i play a mistweaver.

With glyphed uplift, spamming surging, and you're full mana. Sure.

oh did i mention im a tauren in real life? but with wings