assassination - any certain number of haste to get before all mastery?

[Firebert]

tbh mate the people that actually do PVE use heroics and such just to chill...but if u call heroics hard and challenging then...meh....

Never said they were hard or challenging (even though they are to some). I just said that they're a good place to start learning the class inside and out, instead of trying to play Assassination like an Arcane Mage forgetting his cooldowns.

And thanks for the underhanded insult.

[Coldkil]

Assasination simply doesn't want haste.

You go full mastery, and try to cap expertise. Tbh, multiple sims on my toon value crit over haste (even if very little above).

[wangsta]

i wasnt insultin ya. u was insultin pve when putted heroic dungeons in it. anyway..ontopic...ye from my pov (and not only mine) mut is a retarded spec requireing close to 0 skill and with hillarious downtime between the skills...pushin a key once every 3-4 seconds is a huge no no for me...still cant figure it out why so many people love it....maybe couse its ez and with low effort u make tons of dmg....but hey thats only me thinkin out loud

[Viradiance]

And you forgot about LFR and LFD and... oh wait, I was talking about LFD anyway. I'm sorry that you draw your arbitrary line at Normal raiding, but there's no reason to.

You'll have to forgive me, I forgot about how many guilds there were whose sole focus was dungeon progression or LFR progression.

owait those are things you just pug?

It's almost like it's content that nobody at all takes seriously. Dungeons (Challenge modes barely notwithstanding) are totally irrelevant in any discussion of serious PVE since... Oh, that's right. Always.

It is, except you've exaggerated your analogy whereas my comparison is much closer than that. Maybe a better comparison would be a motorcycle to a bicycle.

If you wanna use motorcycles, than a dungeon is to literally any proper raid what an infant crawling is to a motorcycle.

Edit: there's a mod in this thread so I'll pretend to be on-topic. All signs point to Mastery being the top stat for Assassination by leaps and bounds, with Haste and Crit trailing (respectfully). Ideally, you want to cap Hit, but an expertise cap is arguable, since a dodged Envenom still applies the buff but doesn't consume Combo Points and only 80% energy. Being less than ideal for Expertise can result in higher Envenom uptime.

[Verain]

This thread is a lot uglier than it should be.

Mutilate rogues should use the following on a single target boss with full buffs/debuffs being supplied by other classes:

Ambush to open
Slice early on
Tricks of the Trade on cooldown
Mutilate
Rupture
Envenom
Shadow Blades
Vendetta
Vanish -> Ambush: I'm not sure if this is optimal during shadow blades or not, as your vanish resets the swing timer and shadow blades buffs autoattacks, but at the same time, extra CP
Dispatch when procced
Dispatch under 35%

If the fight has time for N uses of Shadow Blades, try to delay such that the final one occurs in sub 35% land. Don't delay if this will reduce your shadow blades to N-1. This is because shadow blades pumps up dispatch by more than mutilate.

In aoe situations, it's not clear when to do the following things:

1)- Just single target. You definitely do this with one, but is it optimal with two?
2)- Right click an add while you have energy, mutilate them, then rupture. I think this is ideal with two adjacent targets, as you score extra energy from the second venomous wounds, and extra damage from the rup/vw/dp on both. I think this is best with two targets.
3)- Fan of knives, stacking deadly on all mobs. Use a small rupture on your target, then right click another mobs. Continue building a couple combo points with fan and rupturing. By the time you have 3-4 mobs dotted up like this you will be gaining a decent amount of energy. I think this is optimal around 3-5 mobs.
4)- Fan to five, pool to full energy, envenom, fan during envenom buff
5)- Raw uncapped aoe: fan to five, crimson tempest. This is definitely best when you have a ludicrous amount of targets.

I'm not sure which of these modes is exactly best at any given number of targets.


I used to make a resto druid put up FF, but now that it's only 30 seconds long, I put it up in my raid whenever I'm on a boss that the warrior isn't on. Normally that warrior is a tank, and he keeps it up, but when he's dps I'm not sure who is optimal. In our raid, I suspect it's him, as dps is his offspec, and he can glyph colo smash which he's using anyway. But certainly expose is nowhere near as silly as before, and can even be used in an interesting fashion- for instance, assume that a mob is about to spawn that needs maximum damage, and you don't have the energy to build five CPs on an unimportant mob. You could EA up to 5 CPs and then have max energy and a full redirect to the valuable burst mob via this.

[Xanjori]

Surely a Muti opener into a 5pt rupture into a 1pt SnD is a better opener?

[Squirl]

This thread got off track quick.

Ambush is inferior to Mut, as has been discussed and determined in a million threads on this forum. Rupture asap is better than 5CP Rupture, and try to use as few CPs as possible on your initial SnD.

Not sure what this has to do with the nonexistent haste breakpoint for Mut.

[Verain]

Ambush is inferior to Mut, as has been discussed and determined in a million threads on this forum.

That is far from determined, much less by a million threads. IIRC Aldrianna has ambush ahead of mutilate by a trivial amount. Certainly if you are doing mutilate you aren't losing any average damage worth talking about, so feel free to continue doing that.

Rupture asap is better than 5CP Rupture, and try to use as few CPs as possible on your initial SnD.

I still haven't seen a sim or anything as to whether Slice then Rup is better than Rup than Slice. In any case, this difference is also going to be not very important.

Not sure what this has to do with the nonexistent haste breakpoint for Mut.

People started talking about the muti playstyle.


EDIT:

http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t130892-...tion_mists/p6/

Aldrianna:

"As an aside: in said BIS gear, ShadowCraft shows 116382 DPS for Ambushing out of stealth, versus 116303 for Mutilate, for a difference of 79 DPS, or less than a tenth of a percent- confirming the general principal that it doesn't seem to actually matter very much."

So ambush > mutilate, but really ambush = mutilate. We know for sure that ambush !< mutilate, so those million threads shouldn't be taken very seriously, if they existed!

[Deleted]

It´s a shame that Haste is so far behind mastery cause the spec plays very slow, atleast early on.

Swapped out Muti for Shuriken and the spec feels much faster.
Some testing on dummies seems to indicate same or slightly higher dps. (anecdotal and probably very weapon dependant)
With 20 energy instead of 55 you can keep pumping it out and building CPs for quite some time before you hit 0 and start waiting for a fresh 20, but then you´re only waiting for 20 and not 55 so..

So on a HC gear level Shuriken play becomes much more higher paced, with a much higher Envenom uptime.
But since Muti will scale with weapon damage and Shuriken wont, it´s probably only good up to a point.
But being so haste starved, it definately helps the pace of the game.

Plus you can stack combo points while not ON a target, so once back in you can go for a instant envenom, rupture or SnD refresh if that fell off, or just put up a Recoup during the downtime and keep building CPs. (and doing some damage in the process).

On a raiding level I expect weapon scaling and a bit more haste will make muti the only option though, with situational use of shuriken perhaps.
Havent seen any deep testing on all this stuff though so.. just some observations and hunches.
Point is, early on and when feeling very haste starved, shuriken can be a nice option instead of muti.

EDIT:
Also obviously being able to bang out CPs in this pace helps "assassination cleave", to keep rupture up on several mobs when there are too few to warrant FOK.

[shadowboy]

No. You stack agility gems until 2 mastery > 1 agility. The thing is mastery's scaling increases with agility so if you are very close on that break point, switching from agility to mastery gems may reduce mastery's scaling to the point where it is no longer greater than 1/2 agility, so be very careful about that break point. If you're close to 2 mastery = 1 agi, then try it both ways and see which provides better results.

[InFlames-]

We're the best class to apply Weakened Armor, Recuperate is used when a target dies with CPs on it and Redirect on CD and when there's plenty on the S&D clock, and Crimson Blades is best in AoE situations with about 5 targets once Rupture's on 2 targets.

I'm sorry that I actually use all the tools in my toolbox.

Not sure if anyone corrected you yet since I did not bother scrolling down further than this , but theres other classes that dont loose anything when they apply sunders ( you actually loose dps [ unless there is no one in your raid who can apply it])

Badum tss.

[Firebert]

Not sure if anyone corrected you yet since I did not bother scrolling down further than this , but theres other classes that dont loose anything when they apply sunders ( you actually loose dps [ unless there is no one in your raid who can apply it])

Badum tss.

I've already explained before or in another thread. Warriors stack it slower/not at all, it resets a short cooldown for Bears (semi-useless), and Hunters don't always run with a Raptor.

[Kael]

I've already explained before or in another thread. Warriors stack it slower/not at all, it resets a short cooldown for Bears (semi-useless), and Hunters don't always run with a Raptor.

That's a matter of organization... We've got our hunter running Weakened Blows since there's no plate DPS in our raid, but if you're not missing buffs/debuffs, the hunter should cover it. We might be better at stacking it initially than a (DPS) warrior, but they keep it up (for free) the rest of the fight on a main target... and to borrow from the bear druid guide on our lovely forums:

"Single Target: Mangle > Lacerate > Thrash Maintenance > Faerie Fire. The idea here is that you always press Mangle whenever it is available. The rest of your rotation is devoted to generating as many Mangles as possible, while maintaining your two debuffs - Weakened Blows and Sunder Armor. Since FFF does more damage than a simple impact hit of Thrash, you should use FFF whenever Thrash still has at least 6 seconds left."

If you've got a bear, they've got it covered. It's not semi-useless, it's part of their rotation. Technically even resto druids can keep it up, although there aren't many fights I'd recommend that.

Outside of bears we might be one of the best for dungeons, but I don't usually find myself running with so many physical DPS that I'm worried about squeezing out more damage. During VP runs I'm usually watching a movie >.>

[Deleted]

We're the best class to apply Weakened Armor, Recuperate is used when a target dies with CPs on it and Redirect on CD and when there's plenty on the S&D clock, and Crimson Blades is best in AoE situations with about 5 targets once Rupture's on 2 targets.

I'm sorry that I actually use all the tools in my toolbox.

I'm sorry that I actually use all the tools in my toolbox

You have almost NO ENCHANTS plz shut the **** up

Infracted

[Firebert]

You have almost NO ENCHANTS plz shut the **** up

Only enchanting the epic stuff I get because they're kind of expensive (especially after buying Contender's gear).

Thanks for the Armory by the way. Did you like my Caster Dagger? Because I've not found a better dagger in Heroics yet (and they've had to add weapon damage back to caster items because of Druids).

[Kryptomaniac]

Only enchanting the epic stuff I get because they're kind of expensive (especially after buying Contender's gear).

Thanks for the Armory by the way. Did you like my Caster Dagger? Because I've not found a better dagger in Heroics yet (and they've had to add weapon damage back to caster items because of Druids).

Could always get the crafted dagger, stat wise its actually decent for assassination as one of the better daggers pre LFR/Raiding. Also very cheap, even at 200 a spirit, thats only 1200g for a substantial dps increase for you.

[DakonBlackblade]

Only enchanting the epic stuff I get because they're kind of expensive (especially after buying Contender's gear).

Thanks for the Armory by the way. Did you like my Caster Dagger? Because I've not found a better dagger in Heroics yet (and they've had to add weapon damage back to caster items because of Druids).

Overall enchants are super cheap on pandaria. Also you have like 1 million options that would be better tham a caster dagger for real. And there are better classes to keep armor debufs up tham rogues.

[Firebert]

Could always get the crafted dagger, stat wise its actually decent for assassination as one of the better daggers pre LFR/Raiding. Also very cheap, even at 200 a spirit, thats only 1200g for a substantial dps increase for you.

No-one's selling, and 1200g isn't cheap considering I don't have a substantial income (outside of questing and Skinning).

Will keep on waiting for a drop.

---------- Post added 2012-11-12 at 02:32 PM ----------

Overall enchants are super cheap on pandaria. Also you have like 1 million options that would be better tham a caster dagger for real. And there are better classes to keep armor debufs up tham rogues.

Not where I am, no (because weapon DPS is by far the best stat), and I'm not repeating myself.

[Verain]

No-one's selling, and 1200g isn't cheap considering I don't have a substantial income (outside of questing and Skinning).

Why waste so much time on the forums? Instead of saying inflammatory stuff, you could be improving your character. You have a a lot of low hanging fruit to pluck, I'd go that way.

[Firebert]

Why waste so much time on the forums? Instead of saying inflammatory stuff, you could be improving your character. You have a a lot of low hanging fruit to pluck, I'd go that way.

Inflammatory stuff where?

Also, working, have Pokemon White 2 and BF3 on the go as well as a girlfriend to support. I probably define casual (and many would probably define me as "bad" instead/as well).