Content Gates Vs Gear Gates

[freeforumuser]

So by that logic, why not add raids? And a raid tier progression? And a fully fleshed out gear tiering system? That's just adding more PvE options for those that want them, and they won't be mandatory, right? Because you'll still be able to do Arah in greens?

I guess that's what's so funny to me about all this. If I - or someone else - on this board had suggested Ascendant gear two weeks ago, we would have been overwhelmed with "This isn't the game for you." and "Go back to WoW." and "GW2 doesn't need carrots!"

But now that it's coming, people are defending ArenaNet with all kinds of rationalizations about how, "Well, maybe it'll just be this one time." and "Well, it's not a big increase in power." and "Well, agony is just in this one place for now..."

What is even funnier to see are people who actually believe Anet's new promise "just only 1 more tier!" when Anet themselves already broke the old one in the first place. Now that is just delusional.

The reasons why people were bored of GW2 actually have little to do with gear stats and more to do effort/reward of current content. Adding a another new tier of stats is neither going to appease the 24/7 hardcore gear grinders with legendaries or the casuals. It's a lose-lose.

[Zeek Daniels]

Couldn't they achieve the same goal by adding an endless/infinite dungeon w/o adding a new tier of gear?

Yes but the infusions are still required to make the dungeon seem like it lasts forever. Since the dungeon keeps getting harder without infusions infusions would still be necessary. The problem comes with the slotting. Why put infusions on Exotics when ppl who just want to run story and explores and do zone events dont need infusion slots on their gear. So they created a new set of items that are just for infusion slots. Now why they decided to make them slightly stronger than exotics i dont know. Maybe its because they decided future legendaries should be stronger than exotics and wanted to put a set inbetween them.

None of these items however, even future strong legenderies are required to see all the content GW2 has to offer. So i have no problem with it no matter how strong infusions make players in that dungeon they will still be running the same dungeon im running but just at a higher difficulty.

I know ppl have asked why cant Anet make more difficult encounters without adding a gear progression system. Well they did, thats what exploreable modes are for. But it seems there are players who want somthing else and Anet decided to make a playground for those players that doesnt effect there other players and you guys seem to be mad.

[draykorinee]

I swear Zeeks post counts has tripled since the release of this ascendancy news :P I really cant get involved in this conversation, too much back and forth, everyone knows Im happy to have a bash at anet but even I didn't see them going against such an integral design philosophy. I dont know if this will have a big effect or not, likelihood is it wont really.

[Cyclone Jack]

But it seems there are players who want somthing else and Anet decided to make a playground for those players that doesnt effect there other players and you guys seem to be mad.

For me, after years of Guild Wars, I would like to hit a wall that can be overcome by skill, and not because I slotted item X into gear Y to block an unavoidable damage type. When I cleared the Domain of Anguish, I know it was because I progressed in skill and not because I got some gear that I didn't have before. This is what I'm upset at.

[Deleted]

I have to admit, the first time I heard about ascended gear I was baffled as well.
However, right now, I actually find it quite intriguing.
The agony concept reminds me of how resistances in WoW used to be, where not enough fire resistance could get you killed in some dungeons.

I can, however, understand why everyone is so riled up about this.
Arena net actively promoted vertical gear progession before the release of the game and now they're moving away from that stance.
However, people should learn to take everything with a grain of salt (especially promises), but maybe I'm a bit cynical, I don't know.

About groups refusing people for their gear though: How do they know what gear you're wearing in the first place?
They can't inspect you as they do in WoW (unless I missed something over the past few weeks) and unless they take you to the fractals of the mists to monitor how fast your health is decreasing from the debuff, they don't know if your wearing ascended gear or not.
Even if they ask you to link your gear, you could make it all up, linking gear from one of your in-game friends or from the TP (if any ascended gear is ever going to appear on TP).
If anyone could give me a solid explanation on how they do that, that would be appreciated.

[Zeek Daniels]

For me, after years of Guild Wars, I would like to hit a wall that can be overcome by skill, and not because I slotted item X into gear Y to block an unavoidable damage type. When I cleared the Domain of Anguish, I know it was because I progressed in skill and not because I got some gear that I didn't have before. This is what I'm upset at.

Ok well thats why you dont have to do this PvE mode. Its not made for you. Its made for those who want character progression not based on skill but on gear. No one is forcing you to do the dungeon. The dungeon and gear are self perpetuating. Because there is no end to the dungeon there is no end to the difficulty, and if there is no end to the difficulty there is no end to the amount power and resistance infusions will provide to overcome that difficulty.

As a Guild Wars player you should be ok with doing content at face value. And by that i mean doing content just to do it not because there is some shiny at the end. If this is the case then you should be focusing on completing each of the 9 minidungeons asccociated with FotM, and not with the progression difficulty scaling mechanic thats only a factor for those that want that challenge.

If you want Anet to design more challenging PvE content outside of this new dungeon then be patient and wait. We cant have all that we want every single patch. Anet have already shown they can add new zones and even new dungeons to the game. They already said they will expand the FotM with future updates so those who want power progression can have somthing to do. For those of us that dont care for power progression or dont like it we will get updates like more zones, events, jump puzzles, and storymode/exploreable dungeons. And these things will revolve around skill like the current set of zones, events and dungeons.

That dungeon is its own separate game for those that want it. If you dont want it dont play with it. Tho after looking at the video i suggest you do play with it at its lowest difficulties, cuz the mini dungeons look awesome.

[Durzlla]

I swear Zeeks post counts has tripled since the release of this ascendancy news :P I really cant get involved in this conversation, too much back and forth, everyone knows Im happy to have a bash at anet but even I didn't see them going against such an integral design philosophy. I dont know if this will have a big effect or not, likelihood is it wont really.

See even dray doesn't think it'll be all doom and gloom and he normally is leading the charge with his yappity lap dog Bo against Anet at every opportunity! Clearly it's not as big of a deal as some of you are making it out to be xD!

Ps: your avatar went from me wanting to impale my monitor to be laughing everytime I see it, I approve xD.

[Cyclone Jack]

If you want Anet to design more challenging PvE content outside of this new dungeon then be patient and wait...Tho after looking at the video i suggest you do play with it at its lowest difficulties, cuz the mini dungeons look awesome.

This is precisely what I will be doing. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy the game overall. I think that there are still some issues they need to iron out with their class design, distinction and balance, but overall it is a fun game. However, that still doesn't change the fact that they flat out lied about their design decisions and manifesto, so now I can't trust any of their other design decisions that they promised either.

[Durzlla]

This is precisely what I will be doing. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy the game overall. I think that there are still some issues they need to iron out with their class design, distinction and balance, but overall it is a fun game. However, that still doesn't change the fact that they flat out lied about their design decisions and manifesto, so now I can't trust any of their other design decisions that they promised either.

False, they haven't lied about it yet, is that ascension gear mandatory for content? (Difficulty increase =/= content), no? Then they haven't lied, they said MANDATORY gear grind, ascension is hardly mandatory...

[Durzlla]

You keep trying so hard, it's cute. =)

Lol nah I gave up on trying hard a while ago, in all honesty you're like drake, you repeate the same argument over and over like a yippy mantra and ignore things others say, dray at least acknowledges the points before dismissing them lol, and his arguments tend to change, which is why he leads the charge as you yip in the background

[Durzlla]

If I had tried that same logic with you two weeks ago as a reason to bring another tier of gear above Exotic into the game, you would have attacked me relentlessly for "Playing the wrong game" and "Trying to turn GW2 into WoW".

That's a big reason why this entire topic is pretty darn funny right now. =)

You talk about adding entire tiers and then more tiers ontop of that, this is one set of gear that is that no more from here (legendaries don't count we already knew those are coming) what you suggest breaks the manifesto because you want to force people to grind for gear in one instance so they can do another one IE a treadmill.

---------- Post added 2012-11-14 at 02:21 PM ----------

It's funny because here you are attacking me personally instead of my posts, while at the same time bashing the quality of my posting.

The humor of that might be lost on you, but it's good stuff!

Your welcome sir!! Your welcome!! And don't forget I'm bashing drake while bashing you and te quality of what you post (god I'm counting down until I recieve an infraction I give it 5min)

[Deleted]

What special human would compare wow's gear treadmill with this one

[Durzlla]

Well, in any case we should both probably behave before the men in white coats come.

Lol probably true, I feel like we should just agree to disagree on the ascended topic until further notice.

[Gray_Matter]

+1, +0.01, +1000 stat increases are not at all relevant to this discussion.

Anet will be adding gear progression to the Guild Wars franchise as a point of fact. This stuff about greens and blues-- that is all in your imagination currently.

Let me ask you a different way. A/Net don't have thousands of developers sitting in the wings churning out new content. There is a limit to how much new content can be created. There are certain players (just look at all of the 80, 100% and bored threads that were created) who burn through content at an extraordinary rate. Spending a huge number of hours in the game. The only way that A/Net can cater for these players in some shape or form is to have a limited progression. There are only so many new mechanics that can be added to existing fights that keep them interesting in the same gear. Agony is a way for them to try and cater for those players without impacting the other players. I would like to see the Ascended items unusable in WvWvW, but that's about it. It otherwise shouldnt effect the rest of the players. Especially if they make the progression "stats" only relevant in the progression dungeons.

[Rukh]

I'm honestly ok with a bit of a content taking some work to obtain. That's what makes it fun, the joy of putting in the effort and overcoming something that wasn't just a given you would overcome. There is no real success without the possibility of failure. They just need to make sure that people aren't failing *all* the time because that's not much fun either. : P

[Gray_Matter]

What're you're saying here is true, I can't deny that. I think where part of the disappointment comes from though, is that people really thought that A.Net would be creative/inventive/inspired enough to be able to pull it off anyway. Then something like this happens, and it's a blow to that faith. It makes people (or just me, at least) think, "Wow. Maybe they don't have the ideas or the inspiration after all. Maybe this really is the best they've got."

I do think they are quite good at getting new content out there and do have a lot of good ideas. Just look at the Halloween event. They put quite a lot into it. I just think they underestimated how much time people would spend online and how used to the whole progression idea some people have become. It doesn't bother me in the slightest. I have my own progression (moving through the world at snails pace trying to finish all of the maps and events) and even that involves getting a full set of exotics. It's taken me 182 hours to get 3 exotics and 1 character to level 80. I think (maybe my big head getting in the way) that I was what they envisaged from most players. What they did get was a lot of people who already played MMO's (and had certain bias's because of that) and a whole chunk of people who had plenty of time to spend on the game in a very short space of time. That may have forced a slight rethink on their part.

IMHO, the response to this would have been different had the included 1 ascended item in the game at the start and had some sort of release plan for new ones. I really like the idea of having something that sits between the exotics (which are a bit too easy to come by) and the legendary (which is really tough).

[Durzlla]

I do think they are quite good at getting new content out there and do have a lot of good ideas. Just look at the Halloween event. They put quite a lot into it. I just think they underestimated how much time people would spend online and how used to the whole progression idea some people have become. It doesn't bother me in the slightest. I have my own progression (moving through the world at snails pace trying to finish all of the maps and events) and even that involves getting a full set of exotics. It's taken me 182 hours to get 3 exotics and 1 character to level 80. I think (maybe my big head getting in the way) that I was what they envisaged from most players. What they did get was a lot of people who already played MMO's (and had certain bias's because of that) and a whole chunk of people who had plenty of time to spend on the game in a very short space of time. That may have forced a slight rethink on their part.

IMHO, the response to this would have been different had the included 1 ascended item in the game at the start and had some sort of release plan for new ones. I really like the idea of having something that sits between the exotics (which are a bit too easy to come by) and the legendary (which is really tough).

I gotta agree fully with this, people like me and Gray are the people they were expecting to play the game, and pretty much regardless of what happens (unless they pull a blizzard and completely cut us off of a vast amount of the content they produce) we will continue to play the game because of how slowly we consume content. IF Anet hadn't made the changes to daily and monthly achievements (with the whole added karma thing) there would be NO WAY IN HELL i'd have more then 3 exotic pieces right now, because i just don't play enough to get the materials for it in a timely manner...

However i know i'm in the minority, people are going through content like crazy, i mean fuck... there are people who have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours invested into the game already, i was up there with em.... for the first 2 weeks... then i actually went outside again and whelp.... lets just say there are people who have lapped me quite a few times over that i play with... and despite them still playing the game, it's pretty apparent they want SOMETHING else to do...

This instance with its illusionary progression seems to be exciting most of these bored people quite well because, it's infinite, and it gets harder and harder, that's a true hardcore players wet dream, an infinite amount of content that becomes more challenging and gives them more and more loot the more awesome they are, talk about Epeen booster...

[Durzlla]

It would have been different, yes. The reason for that is because there was supposed to be a hard ceiling in the gear progression. WHERE that hard ceiling was placed wasn't so relevant, just that it existed. If that ceiling had been Masterwork, Rare, Exotic, Ascendant, ultimately it was fine because that was the established ceiling, that's it, it's set. No more.

When you set the ceiling, and then move it later, THAT will raise eyebrows. It's a very significant shift, and one that rightfully creates some skepticism. It was never supposed to move, but now it just did...so who's to say it won't just move again? Do we trust them if they say it won't move again, given the broken promise of it the first time?

I feel like a lot of people are more freaking out because they think that the ceiling will be raised AGAIN, where if it doesn't go any higher everything will be forgiven. -I- am assuming they are not going to raise it more which is why i'm not upset, but if they do raise it again, well, as i said in another post i will be going to Anets HQ to burn it to the floor... just saying...

But yeah i agree with the whole hard ceiling thing, i just feel like they made exotics to easy to get, so they bumped up the ceiling and are making ascendant that new, what exotics were SUPPOSED to be, ceiling...

That being said, is it just me or does it seem like we're not going to be seeing ascendant gear for a LOOOOOOOOOOONG time in that dungeon lol? they're implying that you'll be a very good ways in and probably crying from difficulty( *twitches at the mere thought of HM DoA and what this dungeon may be compared to that* ) and if i know Anet... well... they can make content to break your balls and make you cry in a corner for hours on end... again....and again.... and again.....

---------- Post added 2012-11-14 at 04:31 PM ----------

I saw a screenshot of a dude with something like 1200 hours played. That confused the heck out of me.

I've seen that lol, i know at the beginning i typed /age and was sad about how little life i had, now i do it and it's like "Whelp... that number hasn't changed very much in a while..." tis what happens when you have little time to play the one game you play xD

[zito]

For me I never thought ascended gear created a traditional gear treadmill. It's just a difficulty raiser.

My main problem with agony is how it is implemented for boss fights. The current dungeons have god awful mechanics and if agony is the only thing that makes the dungeon.... hard... then there is no hope for pve dungeons.

I really hope they redo boss mechanics in the current dungeons. Though I did like the spider guy in story mode TA. It was basiclly a mery go round dodging spider bombs and using our kiting skills. Twas fun.

[Durzlla]

For me I never thought ascended gear created a traditional gear treadmill. It's just a difficulty raiser.

My main problem with agony is how it is implemented for boss fights. The current dungeons have god awful mechanics and if agony is the only thing that makes the dungeon.... hard... then there is no hope for pve dungeons.

I really hope they redo boss mechanics in the current dungeons. Though I did like the spider guy in story mode TA. It was basiclly a mery go round dodging spider bombs and using our kiting skills. Twas fun.

Everytime i do that path my group is stupid and pulls him out of the room =(, to repay them for ruining one of my favorite boss fights i open all the eggs for them though...

That being said i actually really enjoy the mechanics on a lot of the bosses, TA mesmer tree (last boss of middle, middle), i also like how they have some bosses that aren't really -hard- but they're hard because they have adds with them that make them super dooper hard (only downside is those mobs don't respawn), then you get the AWESOME end CM boss (the officer one) where conditions are everywhere and he's flying around as a plague cloud OMG!! did i love that fight!!

The more i think on the fights, the more i really enjoy them, and their mechanics, but the more i think of how a few of them are just.... lacking... like the centaur boss in CM, or just about every boss in HoTW... or the rare dog boss in CM, and a lot of other ones where their mechanics are "meh" because there's only like 2 of them that -could- be really cool if they had more, but by themselves are lame, and then they have an EXTREMELY large amount of health for a boring fight...