1. #3421
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I don't know what a good fix is. For sure, if we played against people in her bracket I would just go 30-0 every game and it wouldn't be fair to the enemy team. My solution has always been a non-rated league with no stats and no matchmaking, first come first serve. The amount of goods and bads on each team should average out somewhere.
    HoN did public non-rated games fairly all right, it worked much like WC3 DotA: Just summarize all non-private lobbies in a list, with a filter. The trick was to get all your midskill friends and create/join the first "NOOBS ONLY" game you could find.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I don't mind playing with new players like Trixie as far as trying to teach her the game and all. The big issue is that the matchmaking system really does not seem to care that she is so new, we get games that are still relatively my level and she just gets stomped every time.
    Yeah, that makes sense. My lane gets just that bit easier while the new guy is 0-5 mid. Much like playing a five-man coordinated stack in public -cm, it takes all the fun out of the game. Winning is great, but stomping is not fun. Losing is alright, but losing solely because you have one (or two) fresh players is not fun.
    Last edited by Longview; 2012-11-15 at 12:37 AM.

  2. #3422
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I don't know what a good fix is. For sure, if we played against people in her bracket I would just go 30-0 every game and it wouldn't be fair to the enemy team. My solution has always been a non-rated league with no stats and no matchmaking, first come first serve. The amount of goods and bads on each team should average out somewhere.
    yeah, this sucks i have 2 friends that i would love to play but i cant becasue they wont learn anything while being stomped
    i guess you can make a fresh account but after one good game i was already in same bracket as on my main...
    Last edited by Finear; 2012-11-15 at 12:52 AM.

  3. #3423
    The system appears to adjust up very quickly and not so much down. I've gone from 80% to 50% wins steadily over the past like 500 games playing with friends and my MMR does not appear to have changed whatsoever. I'll go on a 20 game streak that might have 2 or 3 wins in the middle and go back to solo queue only to see the exact same names as before.

  4. #3424
    Perhaps that's intentional, to avoid people lowering their MMR through throwing games? Theoretically, I don't see how someone could get worse (except for not playing for long periods of time - but I am confident that Valve has some sort of decay for MMR).

    edit: additionally, MMR has seemingly very little to do with wins/losses, that's just the most obvious conclusion.
    Last edited by Longview; 2012-11-15 at 01:10 AM.

  5. #3425
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Oklahoma, USA
    Posts
    14,844
    Quote Originally Posted by Longview View Post
    If you ever expected anything else, you've effectively wasted 400 hours.
    I was expecting that those mechanics would become less stupid as I improved my play, not more stupid. RNG mechanics and overpowered stun mechanics serve to dramatically lessen the amount of individual player skill required to succeed to the point that in many games, whoever gets the stun off first wins by default. It's the same kind of shit I stopped playing WoW because of - only, because Valve is taking Dota 2 seriously, I was actually hoping they'd realize how badly designed mechanics like that are.

    Out of curiosity, what shooters have you played competitively?
    DoD:S, UT2k4, and CS:S. I'd really like to get into Tribes Ascend but my poor computer can barely manage 20 fps on most maps and that's simply not enough for a fast-paced game like that.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  6. #3426
    Tribes is perhaps even more frustrating than DotA in how your team can lose you games =p

  7. #3427
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    The system appears to adjust up very quickly and not so much down. I've gone from 80% to 50% wins steadily over the past like 500 games playing with friends and my MMR does not appear to have changed whatsoever. I'll go on a 20 game streak that might have 2 or 3 wins in the middle and go back to solo queue only to see the exact same names as before.
    Yeah, my winrate pretty much took a nose dive when I was at around 400 wins when I started playing a lot with really casual friends - at one point I had like 20% winrate with one guy over 40 or so games. It was alright after I completely stopped trying to win games, but things did get a lot better when I got an alt account.

  8. #3428
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Oklahoma, USA
    Posts
    14,844
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Tribes is perhaps even more frustrating than DotA in how your team can lose you games =p
    That's true, but I do think personal skill has a lot more impact there - a single light that really knows routes and how to ski well can damned near win a game all on his own as long as his idiot teammates don't llama grab the flag while he's screaming in at half the speed of light. And Hi-Rez apparently put in penalties and stuff to discourage players from doing those llama grabs, last I heard.

    That might be my source of frustration in Dota in regards to my own games - that it seems like you're triple-fucked no matter what role or hero you choose if your teammates really are just bad at the game. My source of frustration in regards to increasingly boring pro games is directly related to what I'd consider to be poorly designed mechanics, though.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  9. #3429
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    I was expecting that those mechanics would become less stupid as I improved my play, not more stupid. RNG mechanics and overpowered stun mechanics serve to dramatically lessen the amount of individual player skill required to succeed to the point that in many games, whoever gets the stun off first wins by default. It's the same kind of shit I stopped playing WoW because of - only, because Valve is taking Dota 2 seriously, I was actually hoping they'd realize how badly designed mechanics like that are.



    DoD:S, UT2k4, and CS:S. I'd really like to get into Tribes Ascend but my poor computer can barely manage 20 fps on most maps and that's simply not enough for a fast-paced game like that.
    I played CS:S semi professionally, training alongside some top flight ESL players in scrims when a member was unavailable, I also played iCTF UT GOTY in lots of private tournaments. CS:S I stopped playing because I just get banned from every server for pub stomping. The only difference from Dota is you can win the game by yourself.

    Is that what you hate about dota? That you can't win by yourself?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lugo Moll View Post
    Consider this philosophical question: If Blizz fails, but noone is there to see it. Will there still be QQ?

  10. #3430
    Legendary! llDemonll's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    6,582
    I think it's more of the fact that one really bad teammate who doesn't take criticism or direction can really affect the outcome of the game in a negative way
    "I'm glad you play better than you read/post on forums." -Ninety
    BF3 Profile | Steam Profile | Assemble a Computer in 9.75 Steps! | Video Rendering Done Right

  11. #3431
    Quote Originally Posted by llDemonll View Post
    I think it's more of the fact that one really bad teammate who doesn't take criticism or direction can really affect the outcome of the game in a negative way
    Is this much different in any online game with a team? I assume the larger the team size, the less that one individual affects you. But also with a larger team size, you have the chance of having more than one teammate who is counter-productive.

    Perhaps for the people who hate this aspect of dota, you would prefer a single player online game? There are plenty to choose from I would say. Play a FPS on a non-team mode, play a sports game like nba2kwhatever, madden 20xx, etc, play SC2. Play chess like it was suggested, though I hear queens are crazy OP. Those bitches can move like anywhere, they need to be nerfed.

    Personally, I have several games to play depending on my mood. Sometimes I want the randomness of dota2 team making, working together with a new team is a rewarding experience. Sometimes I'm frustrated by a bad team and I'll move on to a FPS or some WoW for the evening.

    If you really like dota but hate having bad teammates, then only group with people you know or have played with before and then you don't have to worry. I really don't get why this is an issue. There are drawbacks to dota, just like any game. But there are steps you can take to mitigate them, or not play altogether. Insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results, I think this applies here.

    @Pizza, AGAIN another post from you where something is OP. And comparing it to WoW also. I just.... don't know what to say to you at this point. If dota is simply a matter of who stuns who first, then I imagine you should form a competitive team, pick 5 heros with stuns, and faceroll to victory? The more and more you speak about dota, the less and less I think you have a clue what you are talking about. Though now it has spread to WoW also.

  12. #3432
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Oklahoma, USA
    Posts
    14,844
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyzz View Post
    Is this much different in any online game with a team? I assume the larger the team size, the less that one individual affects you. But also with a larger team size, you have the chance of having more than one teammate who is counter-productive.
    In CS:S, DoD:S, UT2k4, and most other games of that nature, if your team sucks, you just switch teams or find a new server - when you're running your own server (or have admin rights, anyway), it's really not that hard to keep people in line. My problem with shit players has never been that they're shit, but that many of them don't care that they're shit or otherwise have attitude problems. Everyone was bad at a given game at some point, and there are games I'm pretty sure I'm always gonna suck at (I can't play Ikaruga for shit, for example.)

    But when it's a team effort and you can't even be bothered to try to play better for the sake of your team... man, fuck those guys. At least when I was running Source servers or playing on the UT2k4 servers I had admin rights on I could ban them for a few hours until they had a chance to think about their priorities in a team game.

    @Pizza, AGAIN another post from you where something is OP. And comparing it to WoW also. I just.... don't know what to say to you at this point. If dota is simply a matter of who stuns who first, then I imagine you should form a competitive team, pick 5 heros with stuns, and faceroll to victory? The more and more you speak about dota, the less and less I think you have a clue what you are talking about. Though now it has spread to WoW also.
    Because WoW is the only other game I spent a significant amount of time and energy on, which also has the fucking stupid decision to implement game mechanics which remove players from the game. Dota then exacerbates it by making you sit in time-out, which just makes deaths even more frustrating. Counter-Strike shares this, too, but even flashbangs don't prevent a skilled player from reacting.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-15 at 10:52 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sackman View Post
    Is that what you hate about dota? That you can't win by yourself?
    Not necessarily that alone, but more that it's highly unlikely I can win a game just by simply being better than the enemy players (unless I dramatically overwhelm them, which isn't likely since I'm not that good) and there's no way around automated penalties if I decide that's bullshit and I shouldn't have my time wasted. It's especially noticeable in Dota, where games often last 40+ minutes in pubs (due to pubs generally not knowing how to fucking push) - that means that if teams are uneven, you're sitting there twiddling your thumbs while waiting for something fun to happen. And if you decide you'd like to try a new game (the equivalent of switching servers in a Source game)... well, fuck you, man - have a day of 15 minute queues!

    Granted, I accept that those automated systems need to be in place because regardless of reasons, abandoning a game is dicking over the other nine players... but, christ, that kind of frustration shouldn't be in a game. Aren't games supposed to be fun?
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  13. #3433
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    DoD:S, UT2k4, and CS:S. I'd really like to get into Tribes Ascend but my poor computer can barely manage 20 fps on most maps and that's simply not enough for a fast-paced game like that.
    I take it you mean competitively as in an active and dedicated team who scrim fairly often, not stomping people on public servers. Correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Aren't games supposed to be fun?
    Common misconception. Fun is for casuals and people who do not realize how much they suck.

  14. #3434
    Quote Originally Posted by Longview View Post
    Common misconception. Fun is for casuals and people who do not realize how much they suck.
    What do you mean by casual? Because from my PoV, I'm pretty casual yet highly skilled and experienced in DotA. And my first aim, while playing a game, is having fun.

  15. #3435
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Oklahoma, USA
    Posts
    14,844
    Quote Originally Posted by Longview View Post
    I take it you mean competitively as in an active and dedicated team who scrim fairly often, not stomping people on public servers. Correct?
    Correct. Never at the professional level, but we took it seriously. Sometimes organizations like OGL and CAL, though usually just scrimming through IRC channels and whatnot.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  16. #3436
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyzz View Post
    The more and more you speak about dota, the less and less I think you have a clue what you are talking about.
    It's almost admirable how quickly you reached this conclusion. If you're still unsure, there's another 170 pages of the same stuff.

  17. #3437
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    That's true, but I do think personal skill has a lot more impact there - a single light that really knows routes and how to ski well can damned near win a game all on his own as long as his idiot teammates don't llama grab the flag while he's screaming in at half the speed of light. And Hi-Rez apparently put in penalties and stuff to discourage players from doing those llama grabs, last I heard.
    Yeah, but for those of us who enjoy playing Brute instead, there's only so much you can do solo =p

    @longview's comment
    I can agree. I try every day to play DotA for fun but when you're a highly skilled player it just isn't possible. You're going to get pissed at your teammates when they screw up and that's that. Every time you play one handed and still go 16-0 and STILL lose the game because your 4 allies are a combined 4-56 the fun is gone. You either play to win or you stop playing. Like I said before, when you're an average player, just playing the game can be fun. Win or lose, you can look at things you did wrong and try to improve and that progress itself can be fun. When that progress is gone, the only fun that remains is winning. It sounds crappy and people act confused as to why I love the game so much when I'm not even having fun playing it, so, there's my opinion.

    Not sure if that's what longview meant at all but there you go. He might've just been making a joke, after all. I would still agree.

    When I play games I watch my allies' mistakes as they happen and there's nothing I can do about it. That's probably the most frustrating part. See Slardar pushing too far top, 4 went mia, "you're getting ganked sla-dead already." Whole team jungling, 5 went mia, "they're probably smoke ga-3 people dead already." Best part, pushing 4 bot and carry is free farming top, manage to pull out even trades or maybe get a tower, 10 minutes later, "I sure hope Drow got farm-nope she still has shit nothing." Or the ever famous ally getting picked off jungling during a 5 man push mid, so what do my 2 supports do, "SAVE HIM SAVE HIM" and everyone runs into a 1v5 one at a time.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-11-15 at 07:20 PM.

  18. #3438
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Yeah, but for those of us who enjoy playing Brute instead, there's only so much you can do solo =p

    @longview's comment
    I can agree. I try every day to play DotA for fun but when you're a highly skilled player it just isn't possible. You're going to get pissed at your teammates when they screw up and that's that. Every time you play one handed and still go 16-0 and STILL lose the game because your 4 allies are a combined 4-56 the fun is gone. You either play to win or you stop playing. Like I said before, when you're an average player, just playing the game can be fun. Win or lose, you can look at things you did wrong and try to improve and that progress itself can be fun. When that progress is gone, the only fun that remains is winning. It sounds crappy and people act confused as to why I love the game so much when I'm not even having fun playing it, so, there's my opinion.

    Not sure if that's what longview meant at all but there you go. He might've just been making a joke, after all. I would still agree.

    When I play games I watch my allies' mistakes as they happen and there's nothing I can do about it. That's probably the most frustrating part. See Slardar pushing too far top, 4 went mia, "you're getting ganked sla-dead already." Whole team jungling, 5 went mia, "they're probably smoke ga-3 people dead already." Best part, pushing 4 bot and carry is free farming top, manage to pull out even trades or maybe get a tower, 10 minutes later, "I sure hope Drow got farm-nope she still has shit nothing." Or the ever famous ally getting picked off jungling during a 5 man push mid, so what do my 2 supports do, "SAVE HIM SAVE HIM" and everyone runs into a 1v5 one at a time.
    You have a very easy problem....just stack maybe?

  19. #3439
    Quote Originally Posted by Daraiki View Post
    You have a very easy problem....just stack maybe?
    I only know one player good enough and he's too busy going pro in SC2. Don't get me wrong, I play with friends all the time, I actually never solo queue for the most part. My friends make these mistakes too and it's not any less painful to watch. Especially because one of them in particular also has 11 years of experience and so he thinks when he's diving past their tier 2 tower at level FIVE he's still being a pro, regardless of how stupid I let him know he is when that 2v4 was very obviously going to happen with a dive that big.

  20. #3440
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Oklahoma, USA
    Posts
    14,844
    Quote Originally Posted by Daraiki View Post
    You have a very easy problem....just stack maybe?
    The issue with this mentality is that it means you can only play the game at specific times - when your buddies are all available to play. It's not really an acceptable solution, because what happens when your buddies don't want to play Dota, or aren't available... but you want to play?
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •