1. #3481
    More on topic, Slark's pretty fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lugo Moll View Post
    Consider this philosophical question: If Blizz fails, but noone is there to see it. Will there still be QQ?

  2. #3482
    Quote Originally Posted by Sackman View Post
    More on topic, Slark's pretty fun.
    and pretty cheat in pub's due to inability to buy bloody wards and because its cool to roam alone in pubs.

  3. #3483
    Pretty serious stalking going on here, no? I don't really give a damn how anyone plays as long as they make up for good discussion, but anyone making unfounded statements with the air of a god talking their opinions from heavens will get my undivided attention.

    Silencer (and Clinkz) is good because few heroes or players can stand for long against relentless Glaive spam. Often it's easy to completely zone your enemy off the creeps, and even if you can't, your lasthitting is superior and a tiny misstep from your enemy will let you take half their health. OD is good because not only has he serious autoattack damage and ability to deny you with Prison, by the time he hits level 3 or 4 he can eat away your whole manapool if you're not an int hero, and even if you are you won't be able to do much with what you've got left.

    Batrider was always supreme, I wondered a lot why he didn't make his way to Dota 2's pro scene until he was buffed (considering he was a top pick in DotA). He didn't even need the strength buffs, he's a beast with just the movement fixes and the new Flamebreak.

  4. #3484
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Pretty serious stalking going on here, no? I don't really give a damn how anyone plays as long as they make up for good discussion, but anyone making unfounded statements with the air of a god talking their opinions from heavens will get my undivided attention.
    At least I deigned to notice you.

    Batrider was always supreme, I wondered a lot why he didn't make his way to Dota 2's pro scene until he was buffed (considering he was a top pick in DotA). He didn't even need the strength buffs, he's a beast with just the movement fixes and the new Flamebreak.
    I can't remember the reason I was told why he wasn't picked, especially once TA started getting popular right after she got ported to Dota 2. Saw a lot of him last week, though... napalm is such a pain in the ass to deal with in lane.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  5. #3485
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    I can't remember the reason I was told why he wasn't picked, especially once TA started getting popular right after she got ported to Dota 2. Saw a lot of him last week, though... napalm is such a pain in the ass to deal with in lane.
    I dunno why professional scene is not picking him but I don't pick him because that auto attack animation feels very clunky and looks very cheap.

  6. #3486
    If i remember correctly batrider was somewhat bugged in dota2 considering turn rates and napalm, and then they fixed that in the same patch they applied buffs, so he imidietly got back to popular.

    All facts presented AS IS, with NO warranty whatsoever. Use at your own risk.

  7. #3487
    bat was a lot stronger in dota1 because of bugs in dota 2 (turn rates, napalm)

  8. #3488
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finear View Post
    bat was a lot stronger in dota1 because of bugs in dota 2 (turn rates, napalm)
    I thought the turnrate thing was a straight buff. It was a bug? He had that fast turnrate in War3 all along?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  9. #3489
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    I thought the turnrate thing was a straight buff. It was a bug? He had that fast turnrate in War3 all along?
    He handled a lot worse in Dota 2 than DotA for sure, there even was a long thread on dev forums about it. There was also a slew of other small things in WC3 about him, like him being immune to roots like Frostbite, Entangle and Troll Warlord net during Firefly due to engine limitations.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2012-11-17 at 08:21 PM.

  10. #3490
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    A caustic SK who knows how to time creep deaths can beat almost anyone in lane. If he knows what he's doing your only choice is to back off when creeps get to half health, because once he tags them all one burrow strike and you just ate a 600 damage nuke at level 5. Sandstorm is just a bonus that makes it impossible for her to get kills on him or even abuse him with the refraction spam she usually does to people.
    I don't see how that'll work out. At level 1 TA will dominate the lane due to better damage. What will you take at level 1 here as Sand King? Caustic Finale first? Gj pushing lane and no way to get rid of Refraction to get your Caustic to damage her. At level 2 you still are behind in experience and last hits, a level one Burrowstrike won't do shit and you still got no way to get rid of Refraction. By the time you get to level 5 Lanaya is already level 6-7. She can just simply right-click you out of the lane.

    But let's assume that you aren't struggling and what you say works (even though I don't see it happening). You will still push the lane a lot and TA will still get her levels and some farm. I don't see how that is considered a "stomp" since SK is pretty useless with early game farm compared to most mid heroes.

  11. #3491
    A level 1 TA already winning her lane? Sorry, I don't buy it. She takes psi blades and you simply avoid them. She takes refraction and she only has melee range, she will eat the creeps trying to fight you.

    All of you keep pretending that TA starts the game with 400 range and 6 stack refraction. She is just as weak at low level as any other hero, probably more so. She needs ALL THREE of her abilities to be useful. Low psi blades? No range. Low meld? No damage. Low refraction? No survivability. TA is a bad hero because she's just as bad at winning her lane as any other hard carry; how often do you see PL go mid? TA goes mid because she HAS to, and that will end when people figure out that they don't need to send Invoker or QoP mid 100% of the time.

  12. #3492
    Deleted
    She still has better base damage than Sand King at level 1. She takes Refraction at level 1 to get ALL last hits. You can't deny her that, you have nothinig as Sand King to deny her last hits if she has Refraction up. Three charges are good enough to deal with a level 1 melee hero such as Sand King.

    She will probably hit level 2 faster. If you take Caustic at level 1, you push the lane, granting her free experience and last hits. If you take Burrowstrike you are basically no threat whatsoever so she can just freely last hit. At level 2 she gets Psi Blades. You have at level 2 one Caustic and one Burrowstrike. That won't do anything to her. Sure, you can harass her a bit but her starting regen items will allow her to tank the damage and still get her gold. You can in no way kill her this early. She will probably out last hit you due to Refraction damage though. This will let her get her Bottle before you most likely. And so on and so on. I don't see how a SK would "stomp" TA.

    TA is strong mid because very few heroes that benefit from going mid can actually beat her. Heroes with high nuke spells don't do shit against Refraction. Heroes such as Invoker that rely on either Cold Snap or high auto attack damage for lane dominance don't stand a chance because TA hits harder with Refraction.
    Last edited by mmoc9f3c8526e6; 2012-11-18 at 03:59 AM.

  13. #3493
    You have your image of DotA and your image of TA and repeating the same things over and over won't change that. I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree until someone can provide proof that changes either of our minds. I can't really show you how much damage a TA would take if she right clicked SK at level 2, four creeps aggroing her will drain her refraction instantly, you just have to imagine it on your own. The big difference between the two heroes right now is that SK puts up his pressure passively, TA needs to spam refraction *just to stay in the lane.* Without refraction up she can't get near the creeps to CS, which means she is ALREADY on the defensive. The second she fails to use refraction she eats a caustic, which means that she can't ever piss the creeps off by attacking SK or they will clear refraction for him and she will get blown up. Furthermore, if she tries to meld him, he just sandstorms, and they're at a stand off - except oh wait, she's taking permanent AoE damage until she moves, so again, sand king wins by forcing her to run.

    Maybe you've never seen TA lose mid and have high respect for her as a result. That's fine, all skill brackets are different. In my experience, TA rarely wins mid, at best she struggles to stay even and is basically pulling the same strategy as suicide lane BH. That is, get leveled up fast so you can teleport gank when people start roaming. TA isn't useful because of her mid - she's useful because when you 3 man gank their top lane and she teleports in at level 8 she can clean up all 3 of you for a triple kill. THAT is where her gold comes from, not being a mega mid pick. Her ultimate is one of the best cleanup skills in the game for the transition from early to mid game, especially when refraction allows her to literally 1v3 some low health casters because they can't hurt her with their nukes.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-11-18 at 04:19 AM.

  14. #3494
    Deleted
    Why would you ever right click a Sand King at level 2 as TA? That alone just shows how you lack understanding of playing mid. As a TA I wouldn't prioritize denying Sand King getting gold or experience. My prio is to get last hits and experience myself. You have no pressure at early levels. That is the thing. Low level Caustic or Burrowstrike does zero damage on TA due to refraction. The only way for you to get rid of three stacks at early levels is to right-click her. But then you get creep aggro and push lane.

    With Refraction you can't out-last hit a TA. So you are already losing the CS war. And you got no way to harass her as SK. If you can explain how you plan to be a threat to TA from level 1-4 as Sand King and how you plan to deny her last hits and experience then maybe. How do you plan to get rid off her three charges of Refraction? And even if you manage to, what will 90 damage Caustics do? How do you plan to do the multiple Caustics without hitting the creeps more than once? You have to get them all low at the same time = you push the lane because you are right clicking creeps extra much.

    And your Sand Storm argument is silly. She can use the Meld to take a last hit instead. And you better be really fast to be able to Sand Storm a melee range Meld. A long range meld, sure, but why would she do that against a Sand King?

    QoP can right click off Refraction and nuke on demand. And still she struggles against a TA. Whilst SK has nothing to take off Refraction and his Caustic can't be triggered on demand unless you use Burrowstrike and even that is dodgy. And to get multiple Caustics off at same time you have to right click extra.

    If there are many heroes that can make her "struggle to stay even" why do pros such as syndereN and Puppey consider her so strong mid? People ask them how to beat TA mid and they say that barely any hero does. So unless in your skill bracket people pick heroes to counter TA mid I don't see why any TA would lose mid unless they're a worse player.
    Last edited by mmoc9f3c8526e6; 2012-11-18 at 05:53 PM.

  15. #3495
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    How about this gets solved the way way; Lysah plays SK mid against TA and posts the replay?

    I'm in the "SK won't beat TA mid" boat
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  16. #3496
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    If there are many heroes that can make her "struggle to stay even" why do pros such as syndereN and Puppey consider her so strong mid? People ask them how to beat TA mid and they say that barely any hero does. So unless in your skill bracket people pick heroes to counter TA mid I don't see why any TA would lose mid unless they're a worse player.
    Well, Batrider counters TA like a hammer counters a kneecap, so there's one. I'm pretty sure any hero with dots that do enough damage to tick away Refraction charges will also beat her - QoP, Venomancer, Viper, possibly others. Zeus might be able to beat her since Arc Lightning has virtually no cooldown, does enough damage to burn Refraction, and is used to last hit anyway.

    I don't see SK beating her, but I don't think she's SUPER PRO OMG tier, either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  17. #3497
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Well, Batrider counters TA like a hammer counters a kneecap, so there's one. I'm pretty sure any hero with dots that do enough damage to tick away Refraction charges will also beat her - QoP, Venomancer, Viper, possibly others. Zeus might be able to beat her since Arc Lightning has virtually no cooldown, does enough damage to burn Refraction, and is used to last hit anyway.

    I don't see SK beating her, but I don't think she's SUPER PRO OMG tier, either.
    QoP doesn't counter her for shit. People think "damage of time" = counter but you can't actually even hit the Shadow Strike due to Meld. Stop thinking so basic. How does Veno win a TA? TA will get all last hits, regardless if you strip her off her Refraction or not. Viper is a useless hero so it doesn't get picked anyway unless you want a useless hero in your team. Gratz with Zeus. How you gonna stop TA from getting last hits and experience?
    Last edited by mmoc9f3c8526e6; 2012-11-18 at 11:09 PM.

  18. #3498
    You don't have to kill TA to beat her. Honestly, Lich would stomp her mid just by denying a creep every wave. You still act like refraction is some ultra godmode and no one can ever do any damage to her and she can just run circles around the creeps giggling with delight as she tanks everything.

    Anyone who isn't asleep can beat TA mid, it's not about stopping her from getting a single last hit. Hell, Huskar is a fantastic pick for the job. Once you hit 6 and buy dust she's dead, period. She can refract the ult all she wants, she's still dead. Beating TA mid is about picking a hero who can force her out at level 5-6. She isn't very good at ganking at level 6 and as long as your team also isn't asleep they will kill her in the side lanes as well.

    Viper can work, Brood can work. Sniper, Gyro, NA, Weaver, Beast, Axe, Lion, a good Tiny or Bane just to name a few heroes off the top of my head who can outright beat a TA repeatedly in mid. If we lived in a perfect world where dust didn't exist, TA might beat every hero so easily. Unfortunately for her, 180g is a hard counter to invis heroes by design. SK isn't a good pick because he can outright stop her, he's a good pick because SHE can't stop HIM.

    As far as the pros go, here's another case where you should stop believing everything you hear on T.V. Again, I have a huge laugh any time someone mentions the pro scene to try to draw credibility for their argument. You don't play in tournament games, I don't play in tournament games, so why does anything they say have any relevance to us? How many of the heroes I just listed do you see them pick AT ALL, let alone send mid? They don't have a counter for TA because their hero pool is 25 heroes big, not 100.

    Even Dazzle could beat TA mid.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-11-18 at 11:37 PM.

  19. #3499
    Quote Originally Posted by llDemonll View Post
    How about this gets solved the way way; Lysah plays SK mid against TA and posts the replay?

    I'm in the "SK won't beat TA mid" boat
    I really doubt that would end the discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    but I don't think she's SUPER PRO OMG tier, either.
    I thought you think she's absurdly OP.

    edit: I couldn't resist. Do you still think Furion is OP?

    ps: Dazzle can't beat lanaya. Not in here or in any other parallel universe.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2012-11-19 at 12:04 AM.

  20. #3500
    Deleted
    If you don't kill a TA you have to get more CS than him. Else you don't beat her. How you gonna play a Lich mid? Yes, you deny a creep. Rest of the last hits is hers. Even if you break even or a little less as TA. What is a Lich gonna do with all the farm? You are giving Lich the #2 position. So TA will be more useful than Lich will ever be in the current version.

    Good job explaining how a SK can beat a TA mid? You just say "that and that hero can beat TA mid" as if they are facts. SK can't beat TA mid if equally skilled There is no way. But you say SK would "stomp" TA mid. I countered all your arguements. You lack basic understanding of how to play mid. You are the one actually believing a TA would right click a SK at level 2.

    And why would a TA care about stopping SK mid. The team SK is in is already sacrificing the #2 postiion to a SK. That is enough. TA will come out on on top in mid against SK due to superior last hitting and SK can't do shit about it. You just said yourself now in your latest post that SK can't stop TA. A TA with farm is far more useful than SK with farm or experience.

    You just list heroes based on some spells they have but don't realize how it would pan out.

    How the hell does Axe counter TA? She just hits a damn creep and your hunger is off. TA counters Axe. Axe with zero armor = useless. Her traps stops you from moving anywhere so what are you gonna do in fights. You usally don't build Dagger on Axe anymore. You go Tranquil/Phase and being so reliant on movement speed, TA will counter.

    Gyro how?! You HAVE NO BASE DAMAGE to deny TA gold or experience. I don't understand how you cannot get that. What does a Gyrocopter have that makes him counter TA? His first skill? Grats, you just got rid of Refraction, now what?

    That you say Dust counters her is just silly. Her power mid doesn't come from Meld. Meld is just used for damage anyways. You don't sit in Meld very often. Her strength mid comes from having the highest damage in the game at early levels to last hit with and her being immune to any nuke spells and at the same time harass you.

    And I was referring to Puppey and syndereN on TalkDota where a person asks how to deal with TA mid. Both of them tried to think of ANY hero to counter her mid. Not only the ones in the current meta. Even Axe was brought up and Puppey said TA counters Axe. You say Axe counters TA. Damn. Guess I should listen to you. I find it funny that you discredit anything anyone says if they mention a professional name. I don't know waht bracket you play in but on my MMR (Very High), the hero pool isn't 100. People most often pick heroes that are used in current pro scene meta and the only way heroes like Sniper, Dazzle and such would be in my games would be because of Random.
    Last edited by mmoc9f3c8526e6; 2012-11-19 at 12:34 AM.

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