Combustion question

[Faladrath]

From EJ:

When Pyro! procs, AT and Combustion (and PoM, if you took that talent) can be used to create and spread even larger DoTs, using the following method:

PoM (if you took this talent)
AT
Cast two Pyros - one from the proc, one instant cast from PoM
Deactivate AT
Cast two Pyros - one from the proc, one instant cast from PoM
Combustion


If you gain a HU proc over the course of this spell chain, you should turn it into a Pyro! with IB and fire it off. You should also be trying to align whatever other cooldowns you have, trinkets, procs etc with this spell chain, remember to utilize procs/cooldowns when firing off your Pyros, not just before you use Combustion.

Also note that if you have Windsong on your weapon and are using Invocation pre-pull, it's a good idea to unequip your weapon before casting your Evocation, then reequip it as you pull, to prevent a Windsong proc from being wasted.






Now my question is, if you get heating up and use IB to gain another instant pyro im guessing either before or after you deactivate AT, wont this cause the 1st pryos ignite to roll of by the time you combust, or is it possible to press in 5 pyros(with use of IB) and do combust within 4sec of the 1st pyro hit/crit(could understand more if you gained another pyro proc with either the 1st 2 or the last 2 after AT to crit and you gain a 5th thought that but with IB it would be too slow?)? Pretty new to fire mage in MoP so applogize if this is a retarded question.

[Deleted]

your thinking seems correct to me, if you use a GCD casting ib you are actually going to shrink your ignite size and lose the first pyro crit.. this is assuming you are going all the way to the end of the sequence before using combust.. i personally keep a close eye on my combustion ticks (weakaura for actually tick and combustionhelper for a predicted tick). I know roughly that if all goes well, my ignite should be over the 80k mark.. even higher, but if it get above that mark, i combust.. regardless of what pyros i might have to use... sure the next could crit, but it also might not and suddenly im looking at a 40k ignite and a pretty standard combustion that i might aswell have not used CDs.

this is just my personal feel towards the way i play, but it works out ok for me

[Tickspoon]

BTW, the ignite from a spell isn't completely gone after 2 ticks. Assuming you're casting constantly, every tick 1/3 of the remaining ignite is lost. So the amount of ignite used up looks like:

Tick 1: 33%
Tick 2: 55%
Tick 3: 70%
Tick 4: 80%
Tick 5: 87%
Tick 6: 91%
etc.

[Faladrath]

your thinking seems correct to me, if you use a GCD casting ib you are actually going to shrink your ignite size and lose the first pyro crit.. this is assuming you are going all the way to the end of the sequence before using combust.. i personally keep a close eye on my combustion ticks (weakaura for actually tick and combustionhelper for a predicted tick). I know roughly that if all goes well, my ignite should be over the 80k mark.. even higher, but if it get above that mark, i combust.. regardless of what pyros i might have to use... sure the next could crit, but it also might not and suddenly im looking at a 40k ignite and a pretty standard combustion that i might aswell have not used CDs.


this is just my personal feel towards the way i play, but it works out ok for me

Am I missunderstanding the ignite tooltip "Your target burns for an additional 12% over 4 sec of the total damage caused by your Fireball, Frostfire Bolt, Inferno Blast, Scorch, and Pyroblast. If this effect is reapplied, any remaining damage will be added to the new Ignite." when I think anything you can cram into those 4 sec would be given a total and wont munch on any ignites from say 2 crits in a row and instead just ad to the total if the last 2 dont crit or is this wrong?I thought like the ticks from say pyro nr 1 stayed the same till it ended?

[Deleted]

You are correct, beside the point you made your self, the low damage from IB will also devalue the size of ignite if 2 pyro's already exist in the pool. I already commented on this on the EJ site but the author seems bot no read some of the feedback.

As for the ignite, the first crit you are talking about with consecutive additions to ignite will only last for 6s, there have been several tons of threads on this forum as to how ignite works(use search), and it has been a long time since contributions to ignite was saved indefinitely in the pool as long as you refreshed the ignite before it expired.

[Deleted]

Exactly the reason you should not start the POM> AT sequence when you have HS, rather when you have HU and HS...
The casting Fireball > !Pyro combo have a good chance to promote your HU to HS allowing you to cast a third !Pyro on the first three.
Theoreticaly, since like any dot, Ignite tick 1 tick more when refreshed (The current pending tick + Dot Duration) ... Which means 6 seconds of tick time, not 4.
So Theoreticaly at 1.3 second gcd you can fit 5 Hits in at max, in practice though its best to stick to 4.
Only way to increase the ignite yield from that is to
1) Have intellect/spellpower procs up (go go trinkets/Lightweave/Jade Spirit)
2) Potions
3) Have increase damage taken, debuff on the boss
4) Crits

1, 2,3 you can mostly kinda predict, 4 not really still assuming you have 33% crit rating on your gear you have 45% crit chance.
Which results in ~4% chance for 4 casts to crit in a row
20% to crit 3 times
36% to crit 2 times
22% to crit 1 time

Which means if you do crit your first Pyro (+Fireball), combust after the 4th
If you did not crit on the first pyro, you can fish for a fifth even sixth pyro as long as neither Pyro 1 or 2 didnt crit

Edit to add, you also get a minor advantage from Haste procs (Windsong) but that is completely negligable comparing to any of the above not to mention non-existing past patch 5.1

[Faladrath]

Exactly the reason you should not start the POM> AT sequence when you have HS, rather when you have HU and HS...
The casting Fireball > !Pyro combo have a good chance to promote your HU to HS allowing you to cast a third !Pyro on the first three.
Theoreticaly, since like any dot, Ignite tick 1 tick more when refreshed (The current pending tick + Dot Duration) ... Which means 6 seconds of tick time, not 4.
So Theoreticaly at 1.3 second gcd you can fit 5 Hits in at max, in practice though its best to stick to 4.
Only way to increase the ignite yield from that is to
1) Have intellect/spellpower procs up (go go trinkets/Lightweave/Jade Spirit)
2) Potions
3) Have increase damage taken, debuff on the boss
4) Crits

1, 2,3 you can mostly kinda predict, 4 not really still assuming you have 33% crit rating on your gear you have 45% crit chance.
Which results in ~4% chance for 4 casts to crit in a row
20% to crit 3 times
36% to crit 2 times
22% to crit 1 time

Which means if you do crit your first Pyro (+Fireball), combust after the 4th
If you did not crit on the first pyro, you can fish for a fifth even sixth pyro as long as neither Pyro 1 or 2 didnt crit

Edit to add, you also get a minor advantage from Haste procs (Windsong) but that is completely negligable comparing to any of the above not to mention non-existing past patch 5.1

Very informative thank you, now since im thick in the head, just for an example, 1:You throw 4 pyros within the 6 sec, all hit for 100k->combust 2: You throw 5 pyros hitting for 100k each within the 6sec-> bigger combust? Cause like I get confused on the bolded part, or am I correct at saying the more you get to shove into the 6 sec the bigger the combust or does it gtet dimisnished somehow by non crits after crits etc?

@stx3, Never said indefinitely, just 4sec(which turns out to be 6 sec)

[Megraam]

Actually, THIS is how you should use combustion, otherwise you're just a scrub: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...Oj5asXg#t=225s

[Deleted]

Actually, THIS is how you should use combustion, otherwise you're just a scrub: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...Oj5asXg#t=225s

Scrub is the one bragging about mechanics which were not intended and have been since hotfixed ...

[Megraam]

Scrub is the one bragging about mechanics which were not intended and have been since hotfixed ...

Ah, don't be so jealous and learn to play. Mages are perfectly fine and their damage is intended.

[Deleted]

OK, details of how ignite works, lets spam fireballs... and assume 15% mastery
Fireball 1 hits 40.000 > 6000 added to ignite bank
Ignite ticks for 6000 / 2 = 3000 > Ignite bank to 3000 (first ignite alsways ticks for 4 seconds every 2 seconds)
Fireball 2 hits 40.000 > 6000 added to ignite bank ( 9.000 in bank) Ignite ticks for 9.000 / 3! = 3000 > Ignite bank to 6000
Fireball 3 hits 40.000 > 6000 added to ignite bank ( 12.000 in bank) Ignite ticks for 12.000 / 3 = 4000 > Ignite bank to 8000
Fireball 3 hits 40.000 > 6000 added to ignite bank ( 14.000 in bank) Ignite ticks for 14.000 / 3 = 4666

etc eventually your ignite bank will with a perfect 2 second cast time of Fireball cap out at 18.000, because at that point you are taking 6.000 (18/6) every 2 seconds and add 6k (15% of 40k). This "perfect" state will take you about 25 normal fireballs to reach.

After those 25 fireballs, then crit with a single Fireball for 80k the value drops off again quickly after an innitial increase
Perfect state.... Ignite bank at 18k Ignite ticks for 18.000 / 3 = 6000 > bank to 12.000
Fireball Crit 80.000 > 12.000 to Ignite bank 24.000 Ignite ticks for 24.000 / 3 = 8000 > Bank to 16.000
Fireball hit 40.000 > 6.000 to Ignite bank 22.000 Ignite ticks for 22.000 / 3 = 7333 > Bank to 14.667
etc untill eventually after 7 normal fireballs the ignite ticks go sub 6100 ticks and the effect no longer really has any measurable effect untill it really dulls down to 6k ticks again. With each succesive normal hit you take away 1/3 of the previous "overvalue" of the crit that occured.
After the crit the next tick will take 1/3 of the 6.000 extra ignite for 6.000 normal ignite + 2.000 = 8.000
Next ignite will take 1/3 away from what is left (4k) for 6k normal + 1.333 = 7.333
Next ignite will take 1/3 away from what is left (2.7k) for 6k + 900 = 6900
etc...

so after the first ignite tick, you still have 66% of your crit ignite left.
After 2 ticks only ~44%
After 3 ticks only ~30%
After 4 ticks only ~20%

So obviously Crit > Hit > Hit > Hit will have less ignite ticking than Hit > Hit > Hit > Crit

Now for me Pyroblast hits 45% harder than Fireball, so if you have a 40k fireball your Pyroblast is going to hit for 58.400
Your ignite cap (tm) 15% of 58.400 or 8760 building from 6k, offcourse you can cast say 6 instant Pyro's in a chain.
problem here is the timing will depend with a 1.4 second gcd the Pyro's will land 2 times inside the Ignite ticks as well as your first Pyroblast will hit immediatly after your Fireball.

In a world without crits, FB makes the bank perfect again to 18.000
Immediatly after before ignite can tick Pyroblast adds 8760, bank at 26760 / 3 = ticks of 8920
This is already over the Ignite cap of Pyroblast thus the ignite will start to fall....
However the next two Pyro's will land within the 2 second ignite ticks
Pyro adds 8760 bank to 26600
Pyro adds 8760 bank to 35360 / 3 = 11.787

which again will start to drop off unless you crit with pyroblast or get ignite boosters (Mastery procs/Spell power/ etc...)
The ignite cap of a Pyro crit in this cast 15% of 17.520

With just the blessing of Celestials (3k intellect buff) my pyroblast hits ~33% harder, putting the cap at 58.400 * 133% * 15% = 11650
or with crits the ignite cap will be 23.300.
Only way to get over that is to
1) Get more (procs of) spellpower/intellect/ to a lesser degree mastery / to even lesser degree Haste (untill patch 5.1)
2) Get more casts off within the 2 second ignite tick or withing the 6 second falling declines of Ignite...

So if your pyroblast hit at 2.1 seconds and the second pyro hits at 3.5 seconds you still have left (1.4 - 0.75 = ) 0.65 seconds of GCD
This is the time you need to cast Inferno blast, so is it usefull to squeeze out the Inferno blast ?? No because it will land at 4.15 and ignite will tick away more than the IB will add. If the IB had landed at 3.9 AND we can get the combustion off before the 4th second... then Yes

Keep in mind this Ignite cap is a very soft cap but is the level that ignite will return to IN A HURRY, Thus if you land 2 out of 3 crits of Pyroblasts in a row, that is very likely to be your best point to combust. Unless you are going to hit a forth and a fifth Pyro's as crits as well.

Now to go back and answer your question

1:You throw 4 pyros within the 6 sec, all hit for 100k->combust 2: You throw 5 pyros

With all normal hits assuming the "perfect fireball state" of 6k rolling ignites and all pyro's hit for 100k (i.e. they all crit? bleh) 1.4 second gcd
0.00 Seconds Ignite has ticked leaving 12.000 in the bank
0.10 Fireball hits adding 6.000 to the bank, 18.000
0.15 Pyro hits 100k adding 15k to the bank, 33.000
1.45 Pyro hits 100k adding 15k to the bank, 48.000
2.00 Ignite ticks for 16.000, leaving 32.000
2.85 Pyro hits 100k adding 15k to the bank, 47.000
4.00 Ignite ticks for 15.667, leaving 31.333
4.25 Pyro hits 100k adding 15k to the bank, 46.333
5.65 Pyro hits 100k adding 15k to the bank, 61.333
6.00 Ignite ticks for 20.445
5 pyros in, which only leave 0.35 seconds to spare in which you need to hit combustion as well....

0.00 Seconds Ignite has ticked leaving 12.000 in the bank
1.10 Fireball hits adding 6.000 to the bank, 18.000
1.15 Pyro hits 100k adding 15k to the bank, 33.000
2.00 Ignite ticks for 11.000, leaving 22.000
2.55 Pyro hits 100k adding 15k to the bank, 37.000
3.95 Pyro hits 100k adding 15k to the bank, 52.000
4.00 Ignite ticks for 17.334, leaving 34.666
5.35 Pyro hits 100k adding 15k to the bank, 49.666
6.00 Ignite ticks for 16.556

As you can see because of the timing and ticking actually the peak of your combustable damage is at the 3.95 seconds leaving you a full 0.05 seconds to hit the button... Ultimately the more damage you get into the 6 seconds and into the later part of those 6 seconds, the higher your ignite will be be thus your combustion.

Same example, now lets let the first two Pyro hit normaly:
0.00 Seconds Ignite has ticked leaving 12.000 in the bank
1.10 Fireball hits adding 6.000 to the bank, 18.000
1.15 Pyro hits 50k adding 7.5k to the bank, 25.500
2.00 Ignite ticks for 8.500, leaving 17.000
2.55 Pyro hits 50k adding 7.5k to the bank, 24.500
3.95 Pyro hits 100k adding 15k to the bank, 39.500
4.00 Ignite ticks for 13.167, leaving 26.333
5.35 Pyro hits 100k adding 15k to the bank, 41.333
6.00 Ignite ticks for 13.778

Same example, now lets let the last two Pyro hit normaly:
0.00 Seconds Ignite has ticked leaving 12.000 in the bank
1.10 Fireball hits adding 6.000 to the bank, 18.000
1.15 Pyro hits 100k adding 15k to the bank, 33.000
2.00 Ignite ticks for 11.000, leaving 22.000
2.55 Pyro hits 100k adding 15k to the bank, 37.000
3.95 Pyro hits 50k adding 7.5k to the bank, 44.500
4.00 Ignite ticks for 14.834, leaving 29.666
5.35 Pyro hits 50k adding 7.5k to the bank, 37.167
6.00 Ignite ticks for 12.389

It all comes down to time and place....