How to reward 25 man raids for "logistical effort"

[Radalek]

25man is already way easier than 10man.

Best way to fix it is to go back to the best raid model aka Ulduar.

What? There's so much wrong with this post that it's not even fun. One example, Paragon took 19 tries to kill Will of the emperor heroic with 2 people dead on 10 man. Method took 150 tries or so on 25. Don't let me even start about some other bosses.
Do you have some arguments to back it up?

---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 03:00 PM ----------

25man is already easier, look at the pull amounts on heroic kills between Paragon and top 25man guilds. Like 25man deserves some extra rewards when they already get more loot per ppl and bosses are easier.

Lol, look above at the number of pulls and then tell me what was easier.

[Deleted]

Don´t give 25m anything extra. Comparing 25m players with 10m on our server shows, that a 25m guild player with no heroic kills already have a higher average item level, than a player from our 10m guild with 3 heroic kills (14 kills total).
Most 25m guilds are just unorganzied, because there are already plenty advantages:

4 example:

A 25m guild with a pool of 30+ raiders doing there 25m run and organizing twink raids. You don´t get 25m players together? No problem do 2 10m and you have another 20 twinks geared up if you need them for a specific encounter. Other 25m spread there most important classes and players over the main and twink raids, to raise their chance for a good loot.

Raidfinder: Going RF with your 25m guild is a walk in the park and saves a huuuuge amount of time. No que, no retards wiping your raid (triggering crush on garalon), knowing who gonna get a piece of loot or set item before the main raid starts is a very big advantage in my opinion.

Class buffs suchs as stormleash totem or warrior banner with ridiculous high uptime in 25m is an advantage.

Ever raided without paladin or shaman recently? Missing 3000 mastery is huuuuge, even more if you try to defeat a heroic boss. She/he is on vacation and you have to wait that she/he is coming back to give it another try, because u´re wiping @ 5% and with that buff the boss is down.

There many more examples, so please just try to see both sides of the medal. Giving 25m better loot would make 10m progression a joke. That should and hopefully will never happen.

[Tepesch]

The % of the people that still raid 25 and would actually prefer 10 man is negligible. The oposite is not negligible at all..

Dear Mr. Mind reader. Quote me one source saying that it is like that. You can't say, you'll never can. Even Blizzard can't. They know of disbanded 25man guilds, but they don't know how many of the 25 man wanted to raid 10man anyway, or stop raiding. They don't know how many 10-man raiders want to raid 25 man.

And still, you have a guild with at least 20 people, and you want to tell me you have problems to organize a 25 man raid? Well then that's your fault.

And as I said, I like the idea of 15 man-ish raids. But first of all it's not that easy as I said, and it needs a lot of transition. For most 10-man guilds it won't be that easy as 10man guilds are used to a very friendly and familiar environment and adding 5 players is not that easy.

[Deleted]

You seem to know what you are talking about citizenpete, the glorious arena of 25 ppl guild/raid leaders is awaiting for you to prove us all how easy it is to create an organized 25 :P
And you will have more loot on top!
What are you waiting for?
We re waiting

[Raelbo]

There was a poll made recently which said that 43% of the people that raid 10 man at the moment would like to raid 25 instead if they could.

IMNSHO people "voting" by choosing a raid format carries far more weight than a poll on a website. I simply do not believe that if that many people genuinely preferred 25 man raiding, that 25 man raiding would be in any trouble at all.

I believe most of the people who voted that way like the "idea" of 25 man raiding a lot more than the reality. Sure, I love 25 man raiding, except for the dc's, the lag, the effort of finding and keeping players, of having fail players, of latecomers, of ragequitters, of having to organise extra feasts and flasks, etc etc etc etc.

Imagine someone comes to you and says he just loves full contact Tae Kwon Do far more than light contact. Except that he doesn't really like the bruises, the broken bones, the concussions, the blood spatter, broken teeth and general pain that follows for a week after the fight. I would say such a person is deluding themselves. Sure, they may like the extra adrenaline rush, the heightened sense of danger, and the idea of really testing one's self against an opponent, but that is very different thing from saying you prefer full contact. To prefer it you have to look at it in its entirety, good and bad.

It's no different with 25 man raiding. If you are prepared to dismiss all the negatives that are an intrinsic part of 25 man raiding, of course it's easier to say you prefer the format, but unless you are prepared to include the negatives, you are deluding yourself, and it doesn't surprise me that when it is time for people to vote through their actions, it turns out that they actually prefer 10 man raiding (in spite of the fact that there are some aspects of 25 man raiding which they prefer).

[Gilian]

Nobody will care about trivial amounts of gold / mats that are dead cheap on AH anyway. It needs to be something unique and substantial or no dice.

About the same thing I already said on the official forum.

[Manataurus]

I hope to god they do not institute seperate lock outs. If they do then it would be simply a matter of rewarding those who can do 25s and punishing people who cannot. Seen all the rage about being "forced" to do dailies? Times that by about 100 and you'd see why its a bad idea. I really dont see why its a big deal, either you have officers/leaders who really want to do 25s and are commited to finding like minded raiders or you don't. I don't really think they should just keep throwing bonus prizes at 25s until people do them because its a fine line between wanting to do them and needing to (even if the need is only in your head). Not to mention they've said its mostly the organizers who shoulder the burden of making a 25..how do you reward them but leave others who didnt do anything out?

You haven't been playing long, have you? There used to be separate lockouts for 10's and 25's and people weren't really complaining about it when you could run both. Part of the reason that 25's are failing is because of giving the raids the same lockout. You used to see a mess of people pugging 25 mans because they wanted to take advantage of that second lock out. Now guilds are gravitating towards 10 man raids because it is just easier to put the people together to run it. There really isn't any incentive to put up with the headache that managing a 25 man raid brings. It's why you see guilds spamming about recruiting for their second 10 man team as opposed to filling in the last couple of spots for their 25 man. Honestly, I feel that if Blizz drops the shared lockout, you'll see a lot more 25 mans popping up.

[Deleted]

The competition is already uneven, because can run 25-mans and funnel most gear upgrades from the 25-man to a core group of 10-man raiders. So by that logic you're already forced to do 25-mans to progress.

25m certainly has the advantage there. It is also what 25m raiding guilds do before heroic is open. And while the buff problem is solved in 10m, the loot issue of loot being sharded is not. 25m simply have more resources. Harder to manage, yes. More powerful, yes. Sometimes, this power comes in helpful.

Lets not make this power worse. Do 25m raiding guilds really want to play 10m or vice versa? No, if they would, they'd play that difficulty instead. No need to stimulate it further.

That's why I've been arguing there shouldn't be a reward performance-wise, but one for those who do the logistics. Make feast work for any raid size whether it is LFD, LFR, world boss (Sha, Galleon), 10m, 25m. Cauldron it wouldn't work as then this becomes an item 25m raid leaders would sell to 10m raiders before raids start since it persists through dead but who cares about one food buff? Another thing could be a satchel which contains something small the raid leader can distribute, kinda like a rare mob can drop this. Have Group, Will Travel simply doesn't work well with the philosophy of being out in the world, wPvP, and is also too imba for wPvP summoning an entire raid somewhere. It was OP.

[Radalek]

Dear Mr. Mind reader. Quote me one source saying that it is like that. You can't say, you'll never can. Even Blizzard can't. They know of disbanded 25man guilds, but they don't know how many of the 25 man wanted to raid 10man anyway, or stop raiding. They don't know how many 10-man raiders want to raid 25 man.

And still, you have a guild with at least 20 people, and you want to tell me you have problems to organize a 25 man raid? Well then that's your fault.

And as I said, I like the idea of 15 man-ish raids. But first of all it's not that easy as I said, and it needs a lot of transition. For most 10-man guilds it won't be that easy as 10man guilds are used to a very friendly and familiar environment and adding 5 players is not that easy.

There was a poll here recently that said that 43% of current 10 man raiders would like to raid 25.

[Maelstrom51]

You seem to know what you are talking about citizenpete, the glorious arena of 25 ppl guild/raid leaders is awaiting for you to prove us all how easy it is to create an organized 25 :P
And you will have more loot on top!
What are you waiting for?
We re waiting

This could be said no matter what incentive is given to 25 man raids. By taking the thread in this direction, the entire thread is moot because the rewards will never be enough to outweigh the difficulty of setting it up.

[Deleted]

A 25m raider with always complain why the hell does he need to raid with 15 other poor skilled players or why is the boss space so small. On pair the 10m raider will complain that loot never drops for him and that why does he need to interrupt/kite as well as heal/dps. Each has prob a valid point, but you can't compare them to be fair. That's why I don't understand the need to add an extra reward for 25m raids. If the community shifts towards 10m raids then it's there own choice, I didn't see any actions back in the days to save 40m raids so why save 25m raids if they are going "extinct"?

[Raelbo]

You seem to know what you are talking about citizenpete, the glorious arena of 25 ppl guild/raid leaders is awaiting for you to prove us all how easy it is to create an organized 25 :P

No one is saying that creating an organised 25 man guild is easy to do. What we are saying is that IF, as you suggest, there are hordes of people who really wanted to do 25 man raiding, then it wouldn't be so difficult to organise.

In other words: The fact that it is so difficult to find people willing to raid 25 man, would indicate that your assertion about how many people want to raid 25 man is grossly exaggerated.

[Deleted]

A 25m raider with always complain why the hell does he need to raid with 15 other poor skilled players or why is the boss space so small. On pair the 10m raider will complain that loot never drops for him and that why does he need to interrupt/kite as well as heal/dps. Each has prob a valid point, but you can't compare them to be fair. That's why I don't understand the need to add an extra reward for 25m raids. If the community shifts towards 10m raids then it's there own choice, I didn't see any actions back in the days to save 40m raids so why save 25m raids if they are going "extinct"?

Like there was any 40-man raiding possible in TBC? 40m was just killed off with no possibility to save it.

[Deleted]

Dear Mr. Mind reader. Quote me one source saying that it is like that. You can't say, you'll never can. Even Blizzard can't. They know of disbanded 25man guilds, but they don't know how many of the 25 man wanted to raid 10man anyway, or stop raiding. They don't know how many 10-man raiders want to raid 25 man.

And still, you have a guild with at least 20 people, and you want to tell me you have problems to organize a 25 man raid? Well then that's your fault.

And as I said, I like the idea of 15 man-ish raids. But first of all it's not that easy as I said, and it needs a lot of transition. For most 10-man guilds it won't be that easy as 10man guilds are used to a very friendly and familiar environment and adding 5 players is not that easy.

There is a poll right here in this site that is one year old already. Imagine if people were to redo it now :P

About the easy critisism, as i said we are a casual guild.
Go check the % of those guilds around 5000-10000 rank worldwide that do 25 and come tell me it is my fault.
And if you say it is because "people at those ranks prefer 10" ill call you out for talking BS because the % of 25s is STEADILY going down as you move from the most progressed to the less progressed teams WITHOUT exception!

So yeah right. Blizzard doesnt know about the 150 wipes we had on nefarian normal and how much it took to our 10 man to down it.
They dont know about our wipes for 2 weeks on bethtilac normal that we one shoted a tuesday in 10 man.

They dont have similar data from thousand of other guilds that had the same excactly fate at the casual level.
And oh, what a coincidence! 98% raids 10 excactly at those levels!

Oh my this is a miracle!

Most 10 man guilds are not very friendly. They are a bunch of people gathered together to get easier loot, disbanding at the first brick wall.
The mortality rate of 10s is mind blowing, but for every one that bites the dust another one is created, that is the difference between 10 and 25.

[Marston]

A 25m raider with always complain why the hell does he need to raid with 15 other poor skilled players or why is the boss space so small. On pair the 10m raider will complain that loot never drops for him and that why does he need to interrupt/kite as well as heal/dps. Each has prob a valid point, but you can't compare them to be fair. That's why I don't understand the need to add an extra reward for 25m raids. If the community shifts towards 10m raids then it's there own choice, I didn't see any actions back in the days to save 40m raids so why save 25m raids if they are going "extinct"?

True, but the back in the day, Blizzard simply said "We kill 40 and 20 man raiding and introduce 25 and 10 man raiding".

If Blizzard would say "We will kill 25 man and 10 man raiding and introduce 20 man raiding", do you think the community will try to save 25/10 man raiding or simply adapt to 20 man raiding?

But this here is different, Blizzard doesn't kill the raiding model, they want it to be alive and are looking for ways how to do this.

[Gilian]

Dear Mr. Mind reader. Quote me one source saying that it is like that. You can't say, you'll never can. Even Blizzard can't. They know of disbanded 25man guilds, but they don't know how many of the 25 man wanted to raid 10man anyway, or stop raiding. They don't know how many 10-man raiders want to raid 25 man.

And still, you have a guild with at least 20 people, and you want to tell me you have problems to organize a 25 man raid? Well then that's your fault.

And as I said, I like the idea of 15 man-ish raids. But first of all it's not that easy as I said, and it needs a lot of transition. For most 10-man guilds it won't be that easy as 10man guilds are used to a very friendly and familiar environment and adding 5 players is not that easy.

It's not about this at all. Blizzard finally recognizes that 10 and 25 man are not equal and that 25 man should be rewarded properly. It doesn't matter if no one wants to do 25 man or if 90% of the 10 man raiders actually want to raid 25 man. It's not about numbers it's about the fact that it is unfair towards 25 man raiding guilds that for all the more work they do they don't get anything or barely something in return.

[Maelstrom51]

There was a poll here recently that said that 43% of current 10 man raiders would like to raid 25.

This forum is also extremely biased.
I would like you to notice the huge amount of heroic level raiders, when less than 1% of the WoW population has even killed a heroic raid boss this expansion.

If you would like proof, go to wow progress and look at heroic Stone Guard statistics. only ~5k guilds have killed it. If you assume 20 people per guild have killed it (which is a rather high estimation), then that's only 100k people out of the 10 million players.

Basically, the forum is a hivemind of high skilled players, and many skilled players prefer 25 man over 10 man.

[Deleted]

Like there was any 40-man raiding possible in TBC? 40m was just killed off with no possibility to save it.

And your point is? 40-man raiding was killed by Blizzard way before the community did. Hence the boom of new pro guilds in TBC, since the 40-man raiding ones split or cross-merged. So yet again I ask, why the "save 25-man raiding"?

[Viggers]

running the 25man is much less of a problem than recruiting for it. one of the best things they could do would simply be to merge low population realms imo

[Tepesch]

There was a poll here recently that said that 43% of current 10 man raiders would like to raid 25.

Oh tell me how representative is a poll on a website like mmo-champion.com?

Like I recall 1200 people took part, that's like enough to calculate the opinion of 10 Million people.

And to be honest, I also clicked 25-man. It feels 10 times more epic to raid 25-man than 10-man. But I would NEVER leave my 10man guild for real. Because I like the people, and I like the raiding atmosphere.