Gaza rocket fire resumes

[N-7]

Haha, oh god. Are you seriously denying the easily available weapons in the Middle East? Please, what a joke. Just keep saying the Palestine people aren't at least responsible for the shit they've caused themselves with electing a terrorist organization to run the country and for letting them cause the current and possibly future mess that is about to rain down on them.

Am I saying Israel is 100% correct here? No, they have a right to protect themselves. Israel is not going to dissolve, it is here to stay.

Have you visited or lived in any Middle Eastern country?
Saudi Arabia, Oman, Iran: None but government and nomads have access to weapons and nomads weaponry is some really old stuff that barely work.
UAE, Jordan, Kuwait & Bahrain: Only government has access to weapons.
Egypt, Tunisia: Mostly government/military but some civilians have access to weaponry.
Libya, Syria, Sudan: civil war duh huh..
Lebanon: Both governments and "other" organisation have access to weaponry.
Afghanistan, Pakistan: A part that I personally don't consider to be from the Middle East where everyone and their grandma has a gun.
------------------

I have never said that Israel need to go.

---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 11:33 PM ----------

Lol, ok. I guess you can call me names and get away with it (even defended) but if I question your knowledge, I'm the bad guy. Super. I think you're now down to "no, he started it" - good luck with that in discussions, it doesn't fly here.

I didn't say that you're the bad guy I only questioned your knowledge too.

[Mormolyce]

It's quite depressing to see people taking sides like this is some kind of stupid football game where you pick a team and then mindlessly cheer for it.

I really wish everyone would just ignore the Middle East. That place is stuck in the Middle Ages and it's really not worthy of our attention.

[Kasierith]

So Israel should just keep taking the rockets up the ass, not defending themselves or preventing their civilians from being killed, until Hamas decides they want to negotiate? I don't think that will work.

I'll put it in the form of a... metaphor? I've been speaking to family for most of the day so my English is off. Palestine is a pot of water, and Israel is a stove. For the past several decades, Israel has been heating up the pot more and more, letting it stir up. When Hamas formed, the pot began bubbling, sending off warnings of more extremist forms of resistance to come, but it was ignored. Now, the pot is boiling over. Israel is getting burned by the water boiling over the pot, which is a direct result of the heat applied, and in response Israel turns the heat up even more to maintain the pressure. Even if Israel were to stop all pressure altogether, it would take quite some time for things to completely calm down. This is not a single answer perfect solution situation. It will ultimately take time to heal even after Israel begins showing signs that it actually intends to back down.

Selective reading is selective reading, not going to say any more.

Do you believe that I have some sort of personal vendetta against you? Because I do believe that, in the several times we have discussed this specific matter in other threads, I have maintained civility and courtesy despite our difference in views.

[N-7]

I really wish everyone would just ignore the Middle East. That place is stuck in the Middle Ages and it's really not worthy of our attention.

Okay, let's start with you ignoring any topic about Middle East starting with this one.

[Kasierith]

It's quite depressing to see people taking sides like this is some kind of stupid football game where you pick a team and then mindlessly cheer for it.

I really wish everyone would just ignore the Middle East. That place is stuck in the Middle Ages and it's really not worthy of our attention.

Ignorance of the outside world is no longer a viable option in a vastly interconnected global theater. Even if Middle Eastern nations are not as socially liberal as the Western World, they are overall highly influential due to their location and due to their natural resources.

[cubby]

I didn't say that your the bad guy I only questioned your knowledge too.

Let's try starting over here (an interesting idea for the entire conflict, ironically).

The whole situation is a shitty, complicated one, made so by a number of political and religious factors. Both sides can legitimately claim civilians deaths and barbaric behavior from the other. Both sides have backers in the international world (over simplifying both, I know, but bear with me).

Israel, while not being the best of neighbors (to say the least), wants a two-state solution. Right now. Palestinians know this, but Israel won't discuss with Hamas because they are considered terrorists - and continue to kill Israel citizens on a random basis (car bombs, suicide bombs, rockets, etc). Israel continues to dominate the area with their military, stirring up the pot. Hamas wants more power, and wants to strengthen their hold on the area, so they continue to fight with Israel.

So, the whole situation is just awful. Instead of laying blame back and forth here, what do you suggest Palestinians do?

---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 11:46 PM ----------

I'll put it in the form of a... metaphor? I've been speaking to family for most of the day so my English is off. Palestine is a pot of water, and Israel is a stove. For the past several decades, Israel has been heating up the pot more and more, letting it stir up. When Hamas formed, the pot began bubbling, sending off warnings of more extremist forms of resistance to come, but it was ignored. Now, the pot is boiling over. Israel is getting burned by the water boiling over the pot, which is a direct result of the heat applied, and in response Israel turns the heat up even more to maintain the pressure. Even if Israel were to stop all pressure altogether, it would take quite some time for things to completely calm down. This is not a single answer perfect solution situation. It will ultimately take time to heal even after Israel begins showing signs that it actually intends to back down.

Well, your english is fantastic, regardless of which language you've been using all day.

Good metaphor, except, I'm uncertain of where you got the idea that Israel is stirring up the "pressure". What benefit do they get from this pot boiling, because, and stop me here if I've missed something, you seem to be saying in your metaphor that Israel gets a benefit from the pot being stirred up.

Do you believe that I have some sort of personal vendetta against you? Because I do believe that, in the several times we have discussed this specific matter in other threads, I have maintained civility and courtesy despite our difference in views.

You have been the pinnacle civil and courteous. Except where you defended the guy who said everything I say disgusts him, when I was merely engaging in a debate, just like yourself.

---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 11:46 PM ----------

Okay, let's start with you ignoring any topic about Middle East starting with this one.

We seem to disagree on everything, but man, that made me LOL very loud.

[OrcsRLame]

This is my opinion on the whole matter.

If I was a civilian, on either side... I would just really want to not get blown up by a bomb/rocket/tank/whatever. The way I see it, the governments of both sides should work to make that a reality. Their first concern should be their citizens not dying. Who gives a fuck about some stupid borders? Everyone should just get the fuck out of that area and stay out. Who cares who it belonged to once upon a time. Hubris needs to stop killing innocent people.

[smelltheglove]

Good metaphor, except, I'm uncertain of where you got the idea that Israel is stirring up the "pressure". What benefit do they get from this pot boiling, because, and stop me here if I've missed something, you seem to be saying in your metaphor that Israel gets a benefit from the pot being stirred up.

water rights/access is one thing that springs to mind. it is a valid concern for palestinians imo

[cubby]

water rights/access is one thing that springs to mind. it is a valid concern for palestinians imo

Could you elaborate? And forgive a small assumption without knowing the details on the water rights issue, but couldn't that be worked out in a two-state negotiation? And how would pissing off Palestinians help their water rights/access?

[Ausr]

Have you visited or lived in any Middle Eastern country?
Saudi Arabia, Oman, Iran: None but government and nomads have access to weapons and nomads weaponry is some really old stuff that barely work.
UAE, Jordan, Kuwait & Bahrain: Only government has access to weapons.
Egypt, Tunisia: Mostly government/military but some civilians have access to weaponry.
Libya, Syria, Sudan: civil war duh huh..
Lebanon: Both governments and "other" organisation have access to weaponry.
Afghanistan, Pakistan: A part that I personally don't consider to be from the Middle East where everyone and their grandma has a gun.
------------------

I have never said that Israel need to go.

---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 11:33 PM ----------


I didn't say that you're the bad guy I only questioned your knowledge too.

Yeah, from your response and laughable examples of "laws" in the Middle East, I can tell you truly believe that firearms are truly restricted there.


My Israel statement is to the people who believe that the country should be dissolved. It'll never happen.

[smelltheglove]

Could you elaborate? And forgive a small assumption without knowing the details on the water rights issue, but couldn't that be worked out in a two-state negotiation? And how would pissing off Palestinians help their water rights/access?

i only have a vague understanding at best here tbh, but i'll share my understanding (right or wrong, lol, and someone more versed feel free to correct).

there is a limited amount of fresh water in the area, and israel pretty much controls access to it. i found a link for some basic info, yes, israeli site, but since the scope of this is just about the existence and limit of water it should be ok

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/.../scarcity.html

iirc the largest issue is over lake kinneret, but i could be way off here

[Wells]

Sadly so. But thankfully it's not a theocracy.

Arguably neither is Iran, but that's neither here nor there.

[N-7]

Let's try starting over here (an interesting idea for the entire conflict, ironically).

The whole situation is a shitty, complicated one, made so by a number of political and religious factors. Both sides can legitimately claim civilians deaths and barbaric behavior from the other. Both sides have backers in the international world (over simplifying both, I know, but bear with me).

Israel, while not being the best of neighbors (to say the least), wants a two-state solution. Right now. Palestinians know this, but Israel won't discuss with Hamas because they are considered terrorists - and continue to kill Israel citizens on a random basis (car bombs, suicide bombs, rockets, etc). Israel continues to dominate the area with their military, stirring up the pot. Hamas wants more power, and wants to strengthen their hold on the area, so they continue to fight with Israel.

So, the whole situation is just awful. Instead of laying blame back and forth here, what do you suggest Palestinians do?

Well, I'd like to start by also saying that the situation is very messy in there which was result of bad decisions from both sides over the last decade (not going to discuss who started it, it doesn't matter really). Hamas getting elected into power was really unfortunate, Palestine and Israel were at their closest point to have peace. Unfortunately, after Hamas took over they've made sure that opposition was either absorbed or destroyed, leaving the Palestinians with no options other than Hamas or fighting Hamas, the latter could result in a big massacre. What am trying to say here is that the Palestinians are trapped with a "government" that they cannot get rid of without much innocent blood being spilled and the IDF blockade on the other side whom are suspicious of them. On the other hand, Israel has reinforced that fear with their use of "questionable" methods to exterminate Hamas.

What I suggest the Palestinians do? I really don't know it is a very hard situation and I am inexperienced to say what they should do. On the other hand, what I wish would happen is easier to say which is basically a. Hamas being removed (somehow) from the conflict. b. A compromise for peace between the Palestinians and Israelis, even better they maybe could revisit the UN two-state plan and revise it or create a joined one state plan. c. Ideally I'd like the pissing match to stop between Israel and Iran (including Hezbollah).

We seem to disagree on everything, but man, that made me LOL very loud.

I am glad that I made someone laugh

---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 12:55 AM ----------

Yeah, from your response and laughable examples of "laws" in the Middle East, I can tell you truly believe that firearms are truly restricted there.

I have lived in a country there for sometime and visited three others. Have you?

Aside from that, how about you try and provide a source that says otherwise?

[Barnabas]

Well, I'd like to start by also saying that the situation is very messy in there which was result of bad decisions from both sides over the last decade (not going to discuss who started it, it doesn't matter really). Hamas getting elected into power was really unfortunate, Palestine and Israel were at their closest point to have peace. Unfortunately, after Hamas took over they've made sure that opposition was either absorbed or destroyed, leaving the Palestinians with no options other than Hamas or fighting Hamas, the latter could result in a big massacre. What am trying to say here is that the Palestinians are trapped with a "government" that they cannot get rid of without much innocent blood being spilled and the IDF blockade on the other side whom are suspicious of them. On the other hand, Israel has reinforced that fear with their use of "questionable" methods to exterminate Hamas.

What I suggest the Palestinians do? I really don't know it is a very hard situation and I am inexperienced to say what they should do. On the other hand, what I wish would happen is easier to say which is basically a. Hamas being removed (somehow) from the conflict. b. A compromise for peace between the Palestinians and Israelis, even better they maybe could revisit the UN two-state plan and revise it or create a joined one state plan. c. Ideally I'd like the pissing match to stop between Israel and Iran (including Hezbollah).

I am glad that I made someone laugh

---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 12:55 AM ----------


I have lived in a country there for sometime and visited three others. Have you?

Aside from that, how about you try and provide a source that says otherwise?

Yeah Hamas has created a new level of despair in Gaza. The younger generation has moved to prescription drugs to cope with life there. They are desensitized to the point that if Israel invaded it would be a better choice than the current conditions they live under now. Anyone that was Fatah and didn't leave the country get harassed on a constant basis. It's not a fun place to live.

[Ausr]

Well, I'd like to start by also saying that the situation is very messy in there which was result of bad decisions from both sides over the last decade (not going to discuss who started it, it doesn't matter really). Hamas getting elected into power was really unfortunate, Palestine and Israel were at their closest point to have peace. Unfortunately, after Hamas took over they've made sure that opposition was either absorbed or destroyed, leaving the Palestinians with no options other than Hamas or fighting Hamas, the latter could result in a big massacre. What am trying to say here is that the Palestinians are trapped with a "government" that they cannot get rid of without much innocent blood being spilled and the IDF blockade on the other side whom are suspicious of them. On the other hand, Israel has reinforced that fear with their use of "questionable" methods to exterminate Hamas.

What I suggest the Palestinians do? I really don't know it is a very hard situation and I am inexperienced to say what they should do. On the other hand, what I wish would happen is easier to say which is basically a. Hamas being removed (somehow) from the conflict. b. A compromise for peace between the Palestinians and Israelis, even better they maybe could revisit the UN two-state plan and revise it or create a joined one state plan. c. Ideally I'd like the pissing match to stop between Israel and Iran (including Hezbollah).

I am glad that I made someone laugh

---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 12:55 AM ----------


I have lived in a country there for sometime and visited three others. Have you?

Aside from that, how about you try and provide a source that says otherwise?

I got my ass shot at for a couple of years by everyone and their mother, how about you?

[Deleted]

Source? RICH source...

---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 10:51 PM ----------


I have always hated Hamas for using innocents in their plots and yes they do disgust me. I've never said otherwise but you continuously failed to recognise that they're are people other than Hamas in Palestine.

Ask anyone with a Military or Intelligence background, it is common knowledge. I went to one myself once, it is crazy that they do not care who they sell to, one even joked with me and thought I was with the CIA. It turns out that any white man asking about their wares gets told they are for demonstration purposes only, not for sale.

[N-7]

I got my ass shot at for a couple of years by everyone and their mother, how about you?

I haven't even heard a single gun-fire. Oh wait I've heard a gun-fight in Syria couple of years ago other than that nothing. I guess I am lucky then.

Ask anyone with a Military or Intelligence background, it is common knowledge. I went to one myself once, it is crazy that they do not care who they sell to, one even joked with me and thought I was with the CIA. It turns out that any white man asking about their wares gets told they are for demonstration purposes only, not for sale.

Which country was it?

In Kuwait, only hunting-rifles are really permitted and getting a handgun is one hell of a trouble. I would admit that I don't know much about the state of weaponry in Egypt currently. On the other hand, I am pretty sure that Iran has strict gun-control (except in rural areas) and in Palestine it is only Hamas who get them.

[lupii]

I got my ass shot at for a couple of years by everyone and their mother, how about you?

I haven't even heard a single gun-fire. Oh wait I've heard a gun-fight in Syria couple of years ago other than that nothing. I guess I am lucky then.

Now, now, gentleman. We shouldn't be arguing over who has seen the bigger pile of crap. Let's all agree that the situation is terrible.

On Topic:
Hamas is an organization that grows because Israel is doing a terrible job of giving the palestinians any reason to believe them. Therefore, Israel is shooting itself in the foot every time it shoots a missile at civilians. You do not get peaceful resolution by killing civilians, that makes the problem worse.

[cubby]

On Topic:
Hamas is an organization that grows because Israel is doing a terrible job of giving the palestinians any reason to believe them. Therefore, Israel is shooting itself in the foot every time it shoots a missile at civilians. You do not get peaceful resolution by killing civilians, that makes the problem worse.

So what should they do, just sit there and take it?

[lupii]

So what should they do, just sit there and take it?

They have a missile defence system. Only one missile (from what I know of) has gotten through it. Meanwhile, every missile Israel sends hits its target. Sounds to me that Israel has it pretty good compared to the other side.