The single thing that blizzard needs to adopt for PVP!

[sandmoth12]

All blizzard needs to do is realize the mindset that "less is more for pvp" that's it. If they did that pvp would be a lot better.

[sandmoth12]

Not one single response post, and my opinion is that this is a major issue in ideology for blizzard which I have simplified and distilled down to a basic sentence everyone can make sense of.

*sigh* oh well at least I tried...

[Neyzio]

Unless you plan on explaining this ideology you can probably expect zero responses.

[Zuvio]

I don't get it...

[furriusmurrius]

Honestly, what the fuck were you expecting with such an open ended statement? People to praise your brilliance? Expound upon your theory or you simply have none.

[Deleted]

I'm pretty sure he means less spells, less interactions, etc

I played PvP a lot in TBC, it was great because there wasn't so many different spells/cooldowns etc you had to worry about

Now there is millions of different things in PvP I simply don't bother to keep up with what every class/spec has access to, it's just mind boggling

[Airsoul]

*sigh* oh well at least I tried...

Tried what? What were you expecting with your original post? Blizz to make sweeping changes to PvP? MMO champion to club together and change PvP somehow.

Maybe more would be more if you posted something tangible.

[sandmoth12]

I am trying to make the point that PvP favors simplicity and depth instead of complexity to make it fun. A key point is class rotations. Complex class rotation are good for PvE, and can make skill stand out in dps. However, they make pvp suffer because pvp is already complicated with enough abilities without a difficult rotation to add on top of it.

Basically the two require different things and are headed in opposite directions both complexity and rotation wise. At least that is what I believe.

---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 09:28 PM ----------

*sigh* oh well at least I tried...

Tried what? What were you expecting with your original post? Blizz to make sweeping changes to PvP? MMO champion to club together and change PvP somehow.

Maybe more would be more if you posted something tangible.

For anything to be correct and designed properly you must first set the proper ideology groundwork. If you do not do that then everything else will rest on a shaky foundation. This thread illustrates a problem in ideology in the case of complexity of class rotations for pvp and pve.


TLDR: Everything must rest on rock solid ideologies first, then go from there.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

I could give two shits about PvP, just keep it far away from PvE class balance. Actually, I much rather have them just delete PvP.

[GeordieMagpie]

That's the issue, "Less-is-more" works for PVP, but it screws up PvE, For PvE More-IS-More.

[sandmoth12]

That's the issue, "Less-is-more" works for PVP, but it screws up PvE, For PvE More-IS-More.

^Exactly. This thread only illustrates the problem. I have no idea how to remedy it.

But I believe knowing the problem is half the battle.

[Wondercrab]

I'd very much agree, this is definitely the biggest issue with WoW PvP; all of the class mechanics are designed first and foremost for PvE depth, and when you don't establish different rulesets for PvP, that design goal stands at odds with balanced and compelling gameplay.

It's why they went with such a simplified action bar for Guild Wars 2, and why games like LoL only use four static abilities. Every ability is like a different cog interacting with a different part of the system as a whole, and the more cogs you have the more difficult it is to tweak one without jamming another somewhere down the line.

[Confirm Deny]

The moment I got to fear a DK and not a warlock pet with Turn Undead in Wrath I said to myself, "Interesting"
Then, those unique things that countered classes got proactive counters and glyphs and extra CCs/CDs to stop you from wastin their CDs.
Then shit gets cluttered. (Hyperbole)

Everybody understands it to some level. I doubt we could come up with a good solution other than tryin (and fuckin up here and there) slightly more basic iterations of talents without taking away all of the cool shit people get attached to over the years.

I mean, people notice and react when their dranei get porn mustaches and blood elves lips turn a different shade of red.
(E: Actually, I can't even make my usual sardonic jokes about that shit. I had that exact fuckin face.)

TL;DR: Stripping it all and makin the piles upon piles of "useful" stuff more situational is a pretty decent start in theory, no? Not sure how that's played out...
Reality check: Seems to be a number problem still according to my buddy who still plays but "quit" arena (So he says. 3x gladiator, Vengeful glad. No... you shouldn't give a shit. Just unique.)

[sandmoth12]

The moment I got to fear a DK and not a warlock pet with Turn Undead in Wrath I said to myself, "Interesting"
Then, those unique things that countered classes got proactive counters and glyphs and extra CCs/CDs to stop you from wastin their CDs.
Then shit gets cluttered.

Everybody understands it to some level. I doubt we could come up with a good solution other than tryin (and fuckin up here and there) slightly more basic iterations of talents without taking away all of the cool shit people get attached to over the years.

I mean, people notice and react when their dranei get porn mustaches and blood elves lips turn a different shade of red.
(E: Actually, I can't even make my usual sardonic jokes about that shit. I had that exact fuckin face.)

TL;DR: Stripping it all and makin the piles upon piles of "useful" stuff more situational is a pretty decent start in theory, no? Not sure how that's played out... Seems to be a numbers game according to my buddy who still plays but quit arena (3x gladiator, Vengeful glad. No... you shouldn't give a shit. Just unique.)

I don't know. I am at a loss for what to do about the problem. Couldn't help ya if I wanted to in that department =/

---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 09:53 PM ----------

God I just have to say I am so happy to get my point across as clear as it is. If the trolls eat this thread alive from here on out I don't care just happy have been able to explain the problem for people to see

[Byniri]

Glad to see someone else finally sees this.

The problem is so many new abilities and CCs are being added in, and the old unbalanced spells aren't tended to.

[zimzum2523]

Seems like every class can do everything now and bgs are just a stunfest

[worsthitmanNa]

No blizzard just doesn't know how pvp works at all it's really not hard to get pvp to a semi decent level.

Druids:
increase the cool down of bark skin, and nerf the iron bark 4 piece.
Increase the cool down of displacer beast by 15 seconds.
Ferals need a cool down stacking nerf as well. 15% from berserk + 30% physical damage increase from the roar and another 15% from tigers fury then a bit more from faerie fire is ridic.
Give ferals 15% damage mig like shadow priest and boomkin.

Priest:
Instead of the extra resilience when u bubble a target allow the priest to ignore snares for 5 second.
dominate mind is now baseline.
Give psyfiend a cast time.

Warriors:
Nerf warrior fear to one minute and thirty seconds
Remove gag order from pummel make heroic throw and interrupt on impact not a blanket and only when the target is at least 15 yards away so, that why u can't reelz someone but u can use avoid burst.
Increase the cool down of heroic throw to compensate.
Taste for blood only stacks to 3 and buff the proc rate.
Increase the cool down of shock wave by 5 seconds.
Recklessness, skull banner, and avatar can't be used at the same time. This effect only triggers in battlegrounds and arenas.

Shamans:
make it so shamans can't use defensive cool downs when lockout like everyone else.(also make it so druids can't bark skin and iron bark when locked out play a druid but can't remember if its possible.)
Nature swiftness to one minute and thirty second cool down.
Remove the glyph of purge or making it elemental only.
Remove the glyph that increase maelstorm weapons heals 20% per stack or nerf it to 5% per stack.
Give enhancement 15% damage mig like shadow priest and boomkin.

Warlocks:
remove blood fear it's stupid, at the very least give it a mechanic like predators swiftness. That way good players can avoid blood fear but bad players (like me)will QQ.

Paladin:
holy paladins need to cast more an actually run out of mana that is all.

Arena:
Decrease mana regen in 2's by 30-40% so healer have to actually get off drinks to play 30+ minute games.
P.S: At least pvp would be playable at this point.

[Flaks]

I don't get it...

If you have any clue about the current state of PvP it's damn obvious what the OP is getting at.

I'd say more than 75% of the abilities that classes have are exclusive to PvP on top of the ones that overlap between both PvP and PvE.
Then there's the whole addition of more healing, more damage and more CC every single expansion.
Then there's the addition of abilities to counter all this.
Then there's the shooting off into random aspects of PvP that we've obviously moved away from at the expense of taking care of forms of PvP that already exist (attempting to shoe horn world pvp into the game while arenas are at their all time lowest representation).

[worsthitmanNa]

Only classes that have to many key binds to me are hunters, warlocks, and druids Tbh.

[bionics]

I'd very much agree, this is definitely the biggest issue with WoW PvP; all of the class mechanics are designed first and foremost for PvE depth, and when you don't establish different rulesets for PvP, that design goal stands at odds with balanced and compelling gameplay.

It's why they went with such a simplified action bar for Guild Wars 2, and why games like LoL only use four static abilities. Every ability is like a different cog interacting with a different part of the system as a whole, and the more cogs you have the more difficult it is to tweak one without jamming another somewhere down the line.

Agreed. Unless they make PVP a completely different entity from PVE (different effects of spells, not getting every spell/move in Arena, static abilities like in LoL as you mentioned), then it's going to remain virtually impossible to ever fully balance.