Gaza rocket fire resumes

[Liara]

Has anyone here actually stopped to think why the death toll is higher on the Palestinian side?

Counting casualties only tells you how many casualties there are. Nothing else. "Side A is right and B is wrong" isn't an assumption you can make out of this statistic. It's simply a wrong and illogical thought process.

Here are some facts that explain the figures:

1. Hamas and the Islamic Palestinian Jihad are firing unguided rockets vaguely pointed into civilian population hoping to hit as many innocent people as possible. The IDF has advanced guided weapons and is actually using them to hit specific targets. That makes for more efficient fire (not to mention morality and international law - yes, it's illegal to fire deliberately at innocent civilians, whereas collateral damage is legal in certain circumstances).

2. Israelis have bomb shelters and missile defense systems to protect the population from incoming rockets. Also, the Israeli population generally knows what to do and how to behave when under attack. This means Israel is minimizing the chance of its civilians being hit.

3. The Palestinian population ISN'T UNDER ATTACK (shocking isn't it?). The IDF targets terrorist units, commanders, and facilities, and is pretty proficient at it.

4. When Palestinian citizens do get hit, it's either in error (quite rare) or collateral damage due to being used as "human shields" (more frequent because Hamas is operating from within civilian populated areas). So if innocent civilians do get injured or die in Gaza - blame Hamas for being cowards and hiding among them.

"But Gaza is small, anywhere there is a civilian population, they can't operate from elsewhere" - this apologetic nonsense is wrong and unacceptable by any standard. You've probably never actually seen Gaza. There are unpopulated areas in Gaza (fields and plantations for one) from which rockets can be fired if they so desired, but it doesn't line up with Hamas's strategy which includes maximizing civilian casualties in Gaza for purposes of media coverage, international pressure against Israel, and to hamper Israel's ability to operate and retaliate.

Needless to say, firing from unpopulated areas makes it way easier for Israel to stop said fire and hit the units involved. Hence - not a good idea. This means, if Hamas actually gave a $#!t about the Palestinian population - they won't engage a far superior enemy such as Israel in a way that would endanger the Palestinian civilians in the first place! That's like a mouse taunting an elephant and then being surprised for being stepped on.

Hamas's power is in the "misfortune" of the Palestinian people. They'll never tell you there isn't a humanitarian crisis in Gaza (there isn't - Israel provides all the aid required to make sure there isn't), they'll never tell you they have fancy houses and shopping centers (they do) and they'll never give you the real picture or an honest lesson in history. These things just don't line up with their doctrine.


Now you know why there are more casualties in Gaza than in Israel.

And to add something to what was said in this quote - Israel drops thousands of leaflets and makes hundreds if not thousands of phone calls in order to warn Palestinian Civilians about incoming air strikes, so that they can get to safety. The IDF tries to minimize collateral damage, but sadly it doesn't always work.

[cFortyfive]

Exactly. If US police took out 50 citizens to kill a single gangbanger, what do you think the public outcry to that would be?

Just to take something which is still recent ever heard of drone strikes ? Nobody gives a flying fuck about people being blown up somewhere on the planet especially if most of them happen to be Muslims.
We in Germany have more activism against the building of a train station than against that crap. Hell you should know you went terrorist hunting with planes as well.

[Ausr]

I haven't even heard a single gun-fire. Oh wait I've heard a gun-fight in Syria couple of years ago other than that nothing. I guess I am lucky then.


Which country was it?

In Kuwait, only hunting-rifles are really permitted and getting a handgun is one hell of a trouble. I would admit that I don't know much about the state of weaponry in Egypt currently. On the other hand, I am pretty sure that Iran has strict gun-control (except in rural areas) and in Palestine it is only Hamas who get them.

Yeah, I figured you'd pull something like that. Call me when you raid weapon caches and prevent easily traded and bought weapons from being circulated.

[Palmatum]

"Israel says it is putting plans for a ground operation "on hold" to give talks on a ceasefire with Hamas militants in Gaza a chance."

[ati87]

Maybe Hamas should stop firing rockets on daily basis and realise they cannot win this one?

Well they only fire rockets after Israel army kills children.....

[Deleted]

According to a 2001 study by the International Committee of the Red Cross, the civilian-to-soldier death ratio in wars fought since the mid-20th century has been 10:1, meaning ten civilian deaths for every soldier death.

The Gaza conflict is not a war though.

---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 11:53 AM ----------

Has anyone here actually stopped to think why the death toll is higher on the Palestinian side?

Because Israel is using heavy weaponry inside a hugely densely packed civilian center.

[soulcrusher]

And yet, no nation on Earth, not even a Muslim nation would take the Palestinians in. Israel has absorbed millions, and were willing to let the Palestinians live there too - provided they didn't have to be recognized as a separate nation

why do you assume thats for zionist imigrants to decide? palestinians were living there before you, who do you think you are to be so derrogatory and casual about people whos families and lives youve ruined. its exactly this "manifest destiny/Lebensraum" mentality that the zionists have that creates this problem.

is it coincidence that the UN was due to vote this month on recognition of palestine when the israelis started the current unrest by shooting dead a palestinian child? what about the trillion dollar gas field discovered largely in gaza waters that even now the Israelis are stealing. you forced the palestinians into concentration camps/ghettos and now discover theres actually something valuable there and so are coming after them again. like the american indian youll just keep harrying them till youve stolen everything.

have a look at
http://www.globalresearch.ca/war-and...s-fields/11680
This is a war of conquest. Discovered in 2000, there are extensive gas reserves off the Gaza coastline.

or
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...rn-strife.html
Egypt’s decision last month to stop selling natural gas to Israel could be a harbinger of increasingly confrontational Egyptian-Israeli relations, an indication of a worsening Egyptian economy, or both.

Who Owns the Gas Fields
The issue of sovereignty over Gaza’s gas fields is crucial. From a legal standpoint, the gas reserves belong to Palestine.

The death of Yasser Arafat, the election of the Hamas government and the ruin of the Palestinian Authority have enabled Israel to establish de facto control over Gaza’s offshore gas reserves.

British Gas (BG Group) has been dealing with the Tel Aviv government. In turn, the Hamas government has been bypassed in regards to exploration and development rights over the gas fields.

The election of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in 2001 was a major turning point. Palestine’s sovereignty over the offshore gas fields was challenged in the Israeli Supreme Court. Sharon stated unequivocally that “Israel would never buy gas from Palestine” intimating that Gaza’s offshore gas reserves belong to Israel.

In 2003, Ariel Sharon, vetoed an initial deal, which would allow British Gas to supply Israel with natural gas from Gaza’s offshore wells. (The Independent, August 19, 2003)

The election victory of Hamas in 2006 was conducive to the demise of the Palestinian Authority, which became confined to the West Bank, under the proxy regime of Mahmoud Abbas.

In 2006, British Gas “was close to signing a deal to pump the gas to Egypt.” (Times, May, 23, 2007). According to reports, British Prime Minister Tony Blair intervened on behalf of Israel with a view to shunting the agreement with Egypt.

The following year, in May 2007, the Israeli Cabinet approved a proposal by Prime Minister Ehud Olmert “to buy gas from the Palestinian Authority.” The proposed contract was for $4 billion, with profits of the order of $2 billion of which one billion was to go the Palestinians.

Tel Aviv, however, had no intention on sharing the revenues with Palestine. An Israeli team of negotiators was set up by the Israeli Cabinet to thrash out a deal with the BG Group, bypassing both the Hamas government and the Palestinian Authority:

“Israeli defence authorities want the Palestinians to be paid in goods and services and insist that no money go to the Hamas-controlled Government.” (Ibid, emphasis added)

The objective was essentially to nullify the contract signed in 1999 between the BG Group and the Palestinian Authority under Yasser Arafat.

Under the proposed 2007 agreement with BG, Palestinian gas from Gaza’s offshore wells was to be channeled by an undersea pipeline to the Israeli seaport of Ashkelon, thereby transferring control over the sale of the natural gas to Israel.

The deal fell through. The negotiations were suspended:

”Mossad Chief Meir Dagan opposed the transaction on security grounds, that the proceeds would fund terror”. (Member of Knesset Gilad Erdan, Address to the Knesset on “The Intention of Deputy Prime Minister Ehud Olmert to Purchase Gas from the Palestinians When Payment Will Serve Hamas,” March 1, 2006, quoted in Lt. Gen. (ret.) Moshe Yaalon, Does the Prospective Purchase of British Gas from Gaza’s Coastal Waters Threaten Israel’s National Security? Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, October 2007)

Israel’s intent was to foreclose the possibility that royalties be paid to the Palestinians. In December 2007, The BG Group withdrew from the negotiations with Israel and in January 2008 they closed their office in Israel.(BG website).

[Liara]

Because Israel is using heavy weaponry inside a hugely densely packed civilian center.

So I guess you completely ignored the reasons I provided. Didn't expect more, frankly.

[Deleted]

So I guess you completely ignored the reasons I provided. Didn't expect more, frankly.

Huh? The reason why the death toll in Gaza is so much higher than in Israel is because Israel is using heavy weaponry inside a densely packed civilian center and the Palestinian terror groups are randomly firing MacGyver rockets made out of steel pipes and fertilizer into Israel. That's the reason for the discrepancy in the numbers.

[Liara]

Huh? The reason why the death toll in Gaza is so much higher than in Israel is because Israel is using heavy weaponry inside a densely packed civilian center and the Palestinian terror groups are randomly firing MacGyver rockets made out of steel pipes and fertilizer into Israel. That's the reason for the discrepancy in the numbers.

Those are secondary at best.

The main reason is that Hamas uses civilians as "shields", whereas Israel provides defense to its civilians.
And frankly, if Israel weren't dropping leaflets, making phone calls and sending SMSs to Gazans warning them of incoming strikes, the toll would probably be higher.

[Deleted]

Those are secondary at best.

No, that's the direct cause. Heavy weapons detonated inside a densely packed civilian center will result in more casualties than a randomly fired fertilizer rocket.

[larrakeyah]

Israel always tries to minimise collateral damage, palestinians on the other hand...

[Mavett]

Huh? The reason why the death toll in Gaza is so much higher than in Israel is because Israel is using heavy weaponry inside a densely packed civilian center and the Palestinian terror groups are randomly firing MacGyver rockets made out of steel pipes and fertilizer into Israel. That's the reason for the discrepancy in the numbers.

the days of fertilizer are long gone, proper fuel and proper explosives nowadays.

[Isotope]

Huh? The reason why the death toll in Gaza is so much higher than in Israel is because Israel is using heavy weaponry inside a densely packed civilian center and the Palestinian terror groups are randomly firing MacGyver rockets made out of steel pipes and fertilizer into Israel. That's the reason for the discrepancy in the numbers.

The REAL the death toll is higher is because Israel protects it's citizens and doesn't use them as shields like Hamas does.

I wasn't aware that the Fajr-5 (the rockets being launched at Tel Aviv and Jerusalem) were "MacGyver rockets made out of steel pipes and fertilizer." Or that the Grad Rocket system they also use fills into that category.

[Liara]

No, that's the direct cause. Heavy weapons detonated inside a densely packed civilian center will result in more casualties than a randomly fired fertilizer rocket.

Except that Israel doesn't detonate "heavy weapons" inside densely packed civilian centers. The IDF only targets military targets. Sadly, Hamas chooses to place them in civilian populated areas specifically so that collateral damage will happen, and then they can scream "Israel kills civilians deliberately!!!".
And still, death rates are significantly lower than they were in Cast Lead, because Israel and the IDF are far more selective in their target banks, and attempt to avoid as much collateral damage as possible.

[Deleted]

Except that Israel doesn't detonate "heavy weapons" inside densely packed civilian centers. The IDF only targets military targets.

But that's just not true. Open the TV and you'll see them detonating heavy weapons inside densely packed civilian centers with your own eyes. Just a few days ago they targeted a civilian house, killing 10-11 people, because some person with Hamas links might have been there at some point before.

[Wilian]

Those are secondary at best.

The main reason is that Hamas uses civilians as "shields", whereas Israel provides defense to its civilians.
And frankly, if Israel weren't dropping leaflets, making phone calls and sending SMSs to Gazans warning them of incoming strikes, the toll would probably be higher.

The IDF admittedly used Palestinians as human shields, a practice subsequently banned by Israel's High Court of Justice.[25] The Israeli Defense Ministry appealed this decision.[26]

Amnesty International[27] and Human Rights Watch[28] assert the Israel Defense Forces used Palestinian civilians as human shields during the 2002 Battle of Jenin. The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said that "for a long period of time following the outbreak of the second intifada, particularly during Operation Defensive Shield, in April 2002, the IDF systematically used Palestinian civilians as human shields, forcing them to carry out military actions which threatened their lives".[29][30] The practice was outlawed by the Supreme Court of Israel in 2005 but human rights groups say the IDF continues to use it, although they say the number of instances has dropped sharply.[29][31]

The Guardian has compiled three videos[38] and testimony from civilians of alleged war crimes committed by Israeli soldiers during the Gaza war, including the use of Palestinian children as human shields, the targeting of medics and hospitals, and drone aircraft firing on civilians deliberately.[39] Three teenage brothers from the al-Attar family have claimed that "they were taken from their home at gunpoint, made to kneel in front of tanks to deter Hamas fighters from firing at them and sent by Israeli soldiers into Palestinian houses to clear them".[39]

An Israeli military official responded to these allegations: "The IDF operated in accordance with the rules of war and did the utmost to minimise harm to civilians uninvolved in combat. The IDF's use of weapons conforms to international law." An Israeli embassy spokesperson considers these allegations suspect because of Hamas pressure, adding: "Anyone who understands the realities of Gaza will know that these people are not free to speak the truth. Those that wish to speak out cannot for fear of beatings, torture or execution at the hands of Hamas."[39]

However, in a report on the Gaza conflict,[40] released July 2, 2009, Amnesty International wrote that Israel did use human shields in Gaza. Amnesty claimed to have found cases in which "Israeli troops forced Palestinians to stay in one room of their home while turning the rest of the house into a base and sniper position, effectively using the families, both adults and children, as human shields and putting them at risk. The report also criticized Hamas for human rights violations, but "found no evidence Palestinian fighters directed civilians to shield military objectives from attacks, forced them to stay in buildings used by militants, or prevented them from leaving commandeered buildings".[41] The Israeli military responded only by calling the report "unbalanced" and saying that it ignored "blatant violations of international law perpetrated by Hamas".

On March 12, 2010, the Israel Defense Forces prosecution filed indictments against two staff sergeants of the Givati Brigade for allegedly forcing a 9-year-old Palestinian boy to open a number of bags they thought might contain explosives in January 2009. The IDF said it opened the investigation after the incident was brought to its attention by the United Nations.[42] On October 3, 2010, a conviction in this matter was handed down by the military court against both defendants, though neither soldier was jailed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield#cite_ref-40

"Whoops."

[Deleted]

The REAL the death toll is higher is because Israel protects it's citizens and doesn't use them as shields like Hamas does.

Even if Israel did use its citizens as human shields, it's just physically not possible for the Palestinian terror organizations to cause as many deaths with their rockets as Israel is causing their their strikes. The imbalance of power is incredibly immense and it's causing the imbalance in civilian casualty numbers.

[Isotope]

Snip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIQb5whfNRg

You can't have war both ways. It isn't okay for one side to attack civilians and cry if the other side does it. This the 1800s where they are both going to go out into a field and break out their muskets and start shooting at each other.

Civilians on the Palestine side die because Hamas hides their rockets inside houses or non-military structures. At what point when the government is storing ammo in your house does it not become a target? Is it still a normal home or is it now a military site. That is the fight Israel is having to fight. It's a though one and it isn't pretty.

At the end of they day in a war or conflict as this is right now. You have to say, better them then me. Israel doesn't want the rocket attacks so it's going to take out every site that has rockets to protect it's people. If Hamas wants to protect their people they either need to upgrade to better rockets that can actually do damage to Israels ability to fight them or stop firing rockets into Israel.

Hamas only has one action if they want to protect their people right now...stop the rockets and you stop the bombs. Israel won't, and shouldn't, stop dropping bombs till the rockets stop coming across the border.

[Wilian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIQb5whfNRg

You can't have war both ways. It isn't okay for one side to attack civilians and cry if the other side does it. This the 1800s where they are both going to go out into a field and break out their muskets and start shooting at each other.

Civilians on the Palestine side die because Hamas hides their rockets inside houses or non-military structures. At what point when the government is storing ammo in your house does it not become a target? Is it still a normal home or is it now a military site. That is the fight Israel is having to fight. It's a though one and it isn't pretty.

At the end of they day in a war or conflict as this is right now. You have to say, better them then me. Israel doesn't want the rocket attacks so it's going to take out every site that has rockets to protect it's people. If Hamas wants to protect their people they either need to upgrade to better rockets that can actually do damage to Israels ability to fight them or stop firing rockets into Israel.

Hamas only has one action if they want to protect their people right now...stop the rockets and you stop the bombs. Israel won't, and shouldn't, stop dropping bombs till the rockets stop coming across the border.

The post was about hypocricy of calling that Hamas uses human shields and Israel bringing that constantly up when there are proven cases of Israel doing the very same thing not even 5 years ago.