How to reward 25 man raids for "logistical effort"

[JuicedawgYO]

Or someone who had sold products to the general public.


Sc2 doesn't ask people to pay for it every month.

Sold products to the general public doesn't give you any knowledge about WoW or how it should be. You are still just some random average joe who is appaerently also "selling products to the general public". I have worked in a shop too ;-)
And paying every month doesnt entitle you to decide how the game should be.
By the way, I don't hate noobs, I run into some once in a while, and many of them just need a chance and they are actually kind of good and most of them definatly have potencial, just need to polish their skills and mindset when going into an encounter. Practise, practise, get good, then talk about the game and how it should be.

---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 01:34 PM ----------

You are trying really hard to seem like you are important in any way. On topic on my server there are still quite a few 25 mans and the top guilds on the server having been 25 man since cata and doing well.

I am not important, but I have an in-depth knowledge and experience in the game that no 9k+ or 1k raider for that matter, have.

"Quite a few" how many is that, 2, 3? We have 3 here, only two of them being decent. (still have respect for the 3rd though, for keeping it going.). And it is nice for you anyways, good to hear.

[Tepesch]

....And paying every month doesnt entitle you to decide how the game should be......

Get real. It's a company that wants to make money. Money rules the world, money rules blizzard.

They will never, and they never have to listen to the top 5% of the player base, which raids really competitive (And you aparently don't belong to that part)

[Deleted]

Sold products to the general public doesn't give you any knowledge about WoW or how it should be. You are still just some random average joe who is appaerently also "selling products to the general public". I have worked in a shop too ;-)

Then you'll know you don't sell loads of goods by targetting 2 people in every thousand.

And paying every month doesnt entitle you to decide how the game should be.

If you want millions to pay every month, then those millions decide what the product will be.

By the way, I don't hate noobs, I run into some once in a while, and many of them just need a chance and they are actually kind of good and most of them definatly have potencial, just need to polish their skills and mindset when going into an encounter. Practise, practise, get good, then talk about the game and how it should be.

What for? Average and bad players will always decide what wow will be. I know you don't like it, but tough titties, welcome to how the world works.

---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 12:37 PM ----------

Get real. It's a company that wants to make money. Money rules the world, money rules blizzard.

They will never, and they never have to listen to the top 5% of the player base, which raids really competitive (And you aparently don't belong to that part)

Absolutely, they tried catering to the top guys in catclysm and it bombed, cost them a fortune. I'm amazed that the current tier is so tightly tuned, tbh, though thtere is LFR.

[JuicedawgYO]

Get real. It's a company that wants to make money. Money rules the world, money rules blizzard.

They will never, and they never have to listen to the top 5% of the player base, which raids really competitive (And you aparently don't belong to that part)

I am so real, screw money, money shouldn't rule WoW, and it only rules wow to some degree because of people with your mindset, who think that you are entitled to stuff, because your mom pays 10 bucks every month to Blizzard.
Listening to the top 0.5% would help the game sooo much, but of course an idiot like you wouldn't understand that.
Oh yeah and also I raid in a 25man world top150 guild in which I rank on dps every week in, so you can quit trying to taunt/troll me, silly kid. Get good

[Deleted]

I am so real, screw money, money shouldn't rule WoW, and it only rules wow to some degree because of people with your mindset, who think that you are entitled to stuff, because your mom pays 10 bucks every month to Blizzard.
Listening to the top 0.5% would help the game sooo much, but of course an idiot like you wouldn't understand that.
Oh yeah and also I raid in a 25man world top150 guild, so you can quit trying to taunt/troll me, silly kid. Get good

You aren't relevent to this discussion. We are talking about 10 man or 25 man raids for the average raider, not freaky outliers on the bell curve.

[JuicedawgYO]

You aren't relevent to this discussion. We are talking about 10 man or 25 man raids for the average raider, not freaky outliers on the bell curve.

Whatever... And money rules the world because greedy people like you LET IT rule the world.

[Tepesch]

I am so real, screw money, money shouldn't rule WoW, and it only rules wow to some degree because of people with your mindset, who think that you are entitled to stuff, because your mom pays 10 bucks every month to Blizzard.
Listening to the top 0.5% would help the game sooo much, but of course an idiot like you wouldn't understand that.
Oh yeah and also I raid in a 25man world top150 guild in which I rank on dps every week in, so you can quit trying to taunt/troll me, silly kid. Get good

Haha. Money rules every company. You can't screw 90% of the playerbase because you don't feel epic enough with your Top 150 raiding guild, at least I don't need to brag about my world rank or talk about your mother to make my argument valid.
But thanks you realized I'm an idiot. I think I really am, thinking about a solution who would please everyone. But who am I to criticize your thoughtful and intellectual arguments in this discussion?


Still to get back to the discussion without our "Top 150"-raider guy (Apparently nobody needs to brag about his rank here, except him, though many might be a lot better....).
I still think that giving better loot is not a viable solution. It would completely remove 10man raiding from the game, and this can't be the solution at any time.

The problem is, people don't really behave well enough to sustain a 25man guild by coming late, or behaving bad in the raid. This can't be solved by Blizzard at any point.
The only thing they could do is merge some servers, so that a larger playerbase has more access to guilds and vice versa. Last time I player 25man we could easily find better and more reliably people within one week. Now I'm glad to find a tank with the intellect of a watermelon to run the first 3 bosses of mogu'shan on my twink.

[Lightfist]

The second you offer better gear or unique vanity items, you completely throw out the 'equal raids' philosophy.

Honestly, if so many people like 25s, I don't understand why there's a problem getting them together. Is it sheer laziness? Do you need Blizzard to push you to do something you want to do?

More proportional gear is already a good enough incentive to deal with the extra hassle - and if it's not, then maybe we should just make a grave and shoot 25s out back. We can bury them next to 40 mans and the empty plot marked 'DANCE STUDIO'.

[KaPe]

For a start, they should separate Realm First achievement. Harder or easier depends on the boss, but the difficulty isn't the same across both formats. Didn't Al'akir teach Blizzard anything? Ragnaros? Some guilds will downgrade to 10 man for the purposes of this achievement, which only servers to annoy "real" 10 man raiders - not to mention those who get benched, or guilds who prefer not to do such things.

Ignoring that, I'll take those minor improvements mentioned before. Mass Summoning, free feasts, flasks... Actually, WHERE THE HELL are cauldrons? Give me back my cauldrons. I also recall heroic 25 bosses dropping quite a bit more gold than 10 man version. Hell, remove timer on Mass Ressurection in 25s, even that would help. Give me an option to summon (cooldown) free repair bot once in a while. Nothing really gamebreaking, but a little things that help.

Something like higher item levels, cherry-picking loot? Forget about it, will never happen, as it directly harms 10 man raiding.

[Raelbo]

I'm just trying to make you understand that random crappy players who have done nothing significant in wow shouldnt really comment on the state of raids for a simple reason, they don't know enough about it.

Your point may be true. But reading through your posts, I don't believe you have in way an objective understanding of what constitutes a "random crappy player" or what is "significant" in wow.

If WoW is to be a successful game (which it has been) it needs to appeal to 80%+ of its playerbase. Contrary to what you seem to believe, the raiding experience of the 99% of raiders sitting below you in terms of skill of success is important.

If someone is organising a raid group and making progress in the game, even if not as fast you, it is still significant. It is quite possible to know a lot about this game and not be in the top 1% of raiders.

I personally think that a strong aptitude for rational thinking and logical reasoning is far more pertinent to have when it comes to commenting on the state of raiding than elitism and arrogance, even when combined with more game experience.

[velde046]

Because 25s spend so much more time talking about tactics and dividing up loot,

There should no be discussion of tactics. Everybody should be prepared and know the tactics. The only thing is that the raidleader assigns specific people to a task. There should not be 'duscussion' whatsoever unless the raidleader asks for opinions or something.

they take longer to kill a boss because all that time talking adds up.

see my previous point, there should be no discussions

25s also tend to have a lower skill level when compare with the top 10 players so, as a group, they take longer than those 10 players would if they went alone.

That's not something Blizzard should solve and it's not a valid argument... Even though it may seem that way, in the end raiding is about everybody pulling their weight and using their skills to the best of their ability. If anything, 10m are less forgiving in that matter anyway, in my opinion, so no pro 25m favor in this matter.

As a result, the top players don't gear up as quickly as they would if they split off. In effect, they gear up only as quickly as the least skilled players can progress and since it is easier to skew the skill level in your favor in 10s, 25s gear slower.

Again not valid, progression for 10 and 25 is just as much defined by the skill level of the least skilled players. And again, this effect may be more hampering on 10m than on 25m so if anything, this would make it more fair to favor 10m instead of 25m.

[Deleted]

I don't think 25 mans are so superior, if players feel that they should deserve some extra rewards for doing it.

[Bakis]

Why do 25man need something extra?
Players play what they like to play, BLZ develop both 10 & 25 man.
Are 25man raid some endagered tiger in need of special mumbu jumbo?

WHY does 10 or 25 man need special treatment? Dont like it, play the other raid-size, problem solved.

[Deleted]

Yeah give 25 man raiders something extra so the majority of them can stop being such butthurt faggots who think they are special and better than 10 man raiders. Newsflash - you're not. You are not a better player because it takes more time and dedication by your raid leaders to stop you from standing in fire.

But yeah, anything to quench that butthurt would be nice, so we can have less threads with butthurt 25 man raiders.

[scadouche]

Thats the problem. After Icecrown I was fed up with the bull**** thats coming up in 25 man raids. Seriously... these "few" 25 man raids still left at the Top of progression level have 25 dedicated players who are reliable, do everything for progression and have time to do so... Has anyone of you ever raided in a 2-3 Day 25 man raid?

Well here is how it is:

Raid Starts at 19:00pm ...

its 18:30 --> 10 to 12 people are online, usually it the same damn people everytime, every raid, every week. Prepared. Buffed. Watched guides. Want to progress.

18:45 --> 15-18 people online, everything looks good... 15 min here we go.

18:55 --> 20-23 people online... still normal procedure. 15 people are in the instance other people flying around in ogrimmar, on their way to raid, gettin ported. getting buffs, enchants etc.

19:00 --> Still waiting for 1-2 people.. Starting trash. First people start asking for Bufffood, enchants. Tactics are getting described for some poeple.

19:10 --> Groups stand infront of the first boss. Still 1-2 people missing... What should we do... can someone get them on the phone? Should we look for a random? One random doesnt matter anyway... Well lets go look for one.

19:15-20 --> Here we go! Lets pull the Boss... But whait! There is more... "I have noo food"! "Ehm, did you post a guide for this boss?" My cat died while eating my mouse, fell on the computer and it burns right now!!!!" "I have bronken my leg while sitting on the toilet" and propably 1000 and one storys (The funny thing is, its always the same damn scumbag people, who are late, unreliable, play like sh*t and c*ckblock progression as always.

19:30 Hurray the boss gets pulled! Wow.. finally!

So please tell me more about, why I shouldn't take the 10-12 reliable, prepared and good people from these 25+ and form a 10 man group who will do better, has the same progression determinations and understand each other to raid? ( Well, DUH! Thats what I actually did)

But wait, I'll give you a progression 4-5 day raiding 25 man world top view:

19:00pm: 1st Boss is dead.


I do not want to play a game I put time and effort into with lazy, unreliable and skillless people, who come exactly and only for the raid. Who get washed throught the raid with the other members and do nothing in return. I have raided many year in different 25 man raids and it was always the same scenario over and over again until I went a year to a progression 25 man raid. But since I cant handle 5 days per week with a Job, a Girlfriend and other things to do in life.

I just dont know... you can handle this game so extremely well with 2-3 raiddays if only poeple are punctual, prepared, reliable and have more skill than a watermelon

Read my sig.

[Ferocity]

The second you offer better gear or unique vanity items, you completely throw out the 'equal raids' philosophy.

Honestly, if so many people like 25s, I don't understand why there's a problem getting them together. Is it sheer laziness? Do you need Blizzard to push you to do something you want to do?

It comes down to efficiency. If you kill some boss without much problems as 5-men group, you would not really want to get another 5-men just for the feeling of "epic raid size". The less you can get away with - the better. Thus, to be more "interesting", 25-men must provide some exclusive rewards, as why bother to go seek 15 more people and suffer same lottery for exactly same drops (and often - with more complications due to those raid mechanics which require people to stay on range from each other, etc.).

Having said this, 25-men is really done now, it is better to not touch it and let 25-men meet their end in peace. And a lot of people don't know what they ask for, as WoW's graphic engine was updated with MoP once again, so 25-men is fps-fest for normal PCs and Blizzard doesn't plan to release lightweight client any time soon anyway.

[OneSent]

It's simple: go back to the reward system we had before. I don't remember anyone complaining back then.

Funny how the community recognized the logistical effort of 25 mans back then and just accepted that 10 mans got the lesser loot. Now, if they were to go back to that, people would freak the fuck out. Shouldn't have changed it to begin with; It worked.

[JuicedawgYO]

Haha. Money rules every company. You can't screw 90% of the playerbase because you don't feel epic enough with your Top 150 raiding guild, at least I don't need to brag about my world rank or talk about your mother to make my argument valid.
But thanks you realized I'm an idiot. I think I really am, thinking about a solution who would please everyone. But who am I to criticize your thoughtful and intellectual arguments in this discussion?

Brag? You said that I was not in the elite in your previous comment. I defend myself against what you assumed about me, that is not bragging. My arguements are better than yours, you just don't want to understand me. Get good. And I am in no way offended by being called an elitist, I like being good at the things I do, can't see anything wrong with that. But sure, let's see what happens when the last 25man guild disband because Blizzard does nothing for them and everything for the 10mans, let's see how fun your 10man raiding will be when no one cares about WoW anymore because 10man is a joke.

[Navitas]

I am so real, screw money, money shouldn't rule WoW, and it only rules wow to some degree because of people with your mindset, who think that you are entitled to stuff, because your mom pays 10 bucks every month to Blizzard.
Listening to the top 0.5% would help the game sooo much, but of course an idiot like you wouldn't understand that.
Oh yeah and also I raid in a 25man world top150 guild in which I rank on dps every week in, so you can quit trying to taunt/troll me, silly kid. Get good

The level of arrogance and stupidity in this post astound me. What company in their right mind would listen to 0.5% of their customers and ignore the rest!? "people with your mindset" um, pretty sure most of the business world thinks this way. Money makes the world go round, if you don't agree with this then you sir are the idiot.

Tell us again how you're in a top 150 raiding guild and rank of DPS every week, that was a good one. I'm pretty sure because of this your opinion is worth double, maybe even triple of someone who is only top 250 and narrowly misses getting ranked for their DPS. Also; learn how to use punctuation properly doofus.

[Deleted]

Whatever... And money rules the world because greedy people like you LET IT rule the world.

Well if we aren't in favour of bribery, I guess no need for 25 mans to drop extra loot.......